Black Crow

Heresy 207 :skinchanging

399 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Well maybe you could do it; but I doubt Gared would go unnoticed or have the frame of mind to get through without being questioned.

I don't have the text to hand but I'm pretty sure that the fate of Ser Waymar's party was a mystery to Mormont, ie Gared did not return to Castle Black and then desert. 

The only clue as to the location of the encounter is that Craster admits the rangers passed through. As to the distance after that, much will depend on how hot the trail they were following actually was.

If they were on open ground with their quarry in sight, both can move fairly quickly but if they are not close enough to fight within the hour they are going to be moving steadily to keep the horses fresh.

A bit further back and they will generally move more slowly, trying not to lose the trail and at the same time moving cautiously enough to avoid walking into an ambush

Further back still and they are going to be slowed by casting about to verify a fading trail and sometimes going astray.

None of this is necessarily as difficult as it sounds but it does affect the pace and the likely range within a given time frame. 

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Posted (edited)

What I find weird researching into it, are the different maps circulating how far west the Shivering Sea reaches. In the original map it is north of Castle Black. In the asoiaf wiki version it isn't.

Edited by SirArthur

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't have the text to hand but I'm pretty sure that the fate of Ser Waymar's party was a mystery to Mormont, ie Gared did not return to Castle Black and then desert. 

 

Yes, that's pretty much it.  I think someone is having me on a bit.  :D

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5 hours ago, SirArthur said:

What I find weird researching into it, are the different maps circulating how far west the Shivering Sea reaches. In the original map it is north of Castle Black. In the asoiaf wiki version it isn't.

If the maps in the Lands of Ice and Fire are to be regarded as definitive then an inlet of the Shivering Sea reaches in as far as the same longitude as Castle Black.

And just for the record, Whitetree is also due north of Castle Black, while Craster's is due north of the Nightfort.

Placing the ambush somewhere north-west of Craster's would be consistent with Gared escaping down the Milkwater to the Gorge, but he would then need to move pretty far east as well as south in order to fetch up near Winterfell.   

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Posted (edited)

We only know from Bran that "the man has been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills". Which are straight north of Winterfell as well as Winterfell is straight south from the mouth of the Gorge. At least according to my map in the first book.

Going through the Nightfort is actually a longer way. The only thing that actually goes for the Nightfort are the mountains in between the Gorge and Winterfell. I would have assumed he ended in Deepwood Motte.

Edited by SirArthur

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9 hours ago, SirArthur said:

We only know from Bran that "the man has been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills". Which are straight north of Winterfell as well as Winterfell is straight south from the mouth of the Gorge. At least according to my map in the first book.

Going through the Nightfort is actually a longer way. The only thing that actually goes for the Nightfort are the mountains in between the Gorge and Winterfell. I would have assumed he ended in Deepwood Motte.

My bad, I had the impression that Winterfell was more central but according to the Lands map heading due south from the Gorge following the hills would have brought him to near Winterfell - but not to Deepwood Motte which is too far west and as its name suggests deep in the Wolfswood.

Taking the Black Gate out of the equation does simplify the story especially as GRRM probably hadn't planned that far ahead when the story opens, but doesn't alter the circumstances of everything coming together outside Winterfell as it does.

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 but not to Deepwood Motte which is too far west and as its name suggests deep in the Wolfswood.

It is. However I assume it is easier to travel along the coast and not through the mountains. But that is just me. Like with the George maybe we have cliffs over hundred of leagues. Just so that ship travel is not possible. 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

However I assume it is easier to travel along the coast and not through the mountains. But that is just me. Like with the George maybe we have cliffs over hundred of leagues. Just so that ship travel is not possible. 

It may or may not be - rather depends on the traveller - but Deepwood Motte doesn't fit the small holdfast in the hills an easy morning's ride from Winterfell

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

It may or may not be - rather depends on the traveller - but Deepwood Motte doesn't fit the small holdfast in the hills an easy morning's ride from Winterfell

No it doesn't. It was not my intention to suggest the holdfast is Deepwood Motte. It was more a comment on the easier route south from the Gorge if one would want to avoid the mountains. And in general there is the question what we are talking about. Nice rounded hills or some rocky mountains. 

Edited by SirArthur

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Posted (edited)

Gared was scared, and he’s a well seasoned man of the Watch with decades of experience ranging. In other words - he knows his way around and would take the shortest route possible to get to safety on the south side of the Wall. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Or he was hunted by our six ghosts and the Other across the Gorge to Winterfell where they quickly skinchange Tolkien style into direwolves. We do not know, but the villages were empty. 

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

No it doesn't. It was not my intention to suggest the holdfast is Deepwood Motte. It was more a comment on the easier route south from the Gorge if one would want to avoid the mountains. And in general there is the question what we are talking about. Nice rounded hills or some rocky mountains. 

I don't know, they're the same hills the Scooby Gang pass through on their way to the Wall and seem like a cross between the Bernese Oberland and the quieter bits of the Scottish Highlands rather than the High Alps, and so a perfectly sensible escape route for Gared with or without a four-legged friend.

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If Gared did go through the gorge,  why go hundreds of miles east to the one place he'd be executed?  Even if he went another way, he'd avoid Winterfell if he really deserted and feared for his life.

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2 hours ago, SirArthur said:

No it doesn't. It was not my intention to suggest the holdfast is Deepwood Motte. It was more a comment on the easier route south from the Gorge if one would want to avoid the mountains. And in general there is the question what we are talking about. Nice rounded hills or some rocky mountains. 

You just have to navigate your way through a mountain range and a forest that's probably as big as Aregentina.

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Posted (edited)

56 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If Gared did go through the gorge,  why go hundreds of miles east to the one place he'd be executed?  Even if he went another way, he'd avoid Winterfell if he really deserted and feared for his life.

Gared does not know the location of Winterfell. All he does in run straight south from the Gorge and bang ... Winterfell. It's a stupid map coincidence. But it works. And he is a ranger. The least we can expect from him is to navigate south with the help of the sun.

47 minutes ago, redriver said:

You just have to navigate your way through a mountain range and a forest that's probably as big as Aregentina.

four times.

 

Edited by SirArthur

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I thought Winterfell was further east, but looking at the map, I see it is not.

My point is he could easily have avoided civilization if he wanted to, unless he was mentally too far gone.  He was terrified of something,  but it wasn't losing his own life.

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We all know the direwolf killed by an antler symbolizes Ned killed by service to Robert. 

But could this be more than a coincidence used by grrm as foreshadowing?  Maybe BR or someone else wanted to warn Ned, and this was their way of sending a message. 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Gared does not know the location of Winterfell. All he does in run straight south from the Gorge and bang ... Winterfell. It's a stupid map coincidence. But it works. And he is a ranger. The least we can expect from him is to navigate south with the help of the sun.

four times.

 

  I hate to question your numeracy skills again but where are you getting four from?

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

We all know the direwolf killed by an antler symbolizes Ned killed by service to Robert. 

But could this be more than a coincidence used by grrm as foreshadowing?  Maybe BR or someone else wanted to warn Ned, and this was their way of sending a message. 

Its an old heresy that the she-wolf wasn't killed by a unknown stag [the dead one in the mummers' version is an invention of the mummers and doesn't figure in the book] but by Gared using an antler-bone dagger - a cruder version of the one carried by Val. Actual surviving ones appear to have been specifically used for ritual purposes

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23 minutes ago, redriver said:

  I hate to question your numeracy skills again but where are you getting four from?

distance winterfell - wall x 4 ~ north - south distance argentinia.

I actually invested time to research your claims you throw around here. Should be your job, not mine. 

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