Riverlands 2.0

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

A similar situation applies for Harrenhal - it has massive walls, but if you can't man them adequately, you end up stretched too thin to cover the full length. It's also hinted at with what Nedd tells Jon about the Wall - high as it is, is it still only as strong as the men who hold it. A big castle needs a big garrison - whether it's Harrenhal or Winterfell...

From the Wiki  "Harrenhal is built on a gigantic scale; its colossal curtain walls are sheer and high as mountain cliffs" , 

It would be very difficult to get armored men over Harrenhall's walls , they would have to build massive ladders and they would be exposed to fire from above for long periods , 300 to 400 hundred men should be able to hold off an army fairly easily unless they were able to break through the gates which are supposed to be massive as well. Frankly if Tywin came upon Harrenhall and it was strongly garrisoned with a experienced leader he would just pass it by ( why would he risk thousands of men to take the castle?) Lady Whent just handing him the castle was a huge blow to Robb . 

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

As to the equipment, plate armour seems more prevalent amongst the westermen, too, whereas the northmen mostly wore mail.

 

we are comparing the Westerlands to the Riverlands not the Northmen . I would imagine that the Rivermen and Westerrmen are pretty similar when it comes to armor and weapons and training . 

 

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

.

Even if they are matched in quality, Edmure spread his forces around the border, trying to cover all possible points of attack, yet Tywin could choose to mass at a single point. But to Edmure's credit, though he may have messed up Robb's strategy, his tactical handling of the defences at the fords was sound.

 

Edmure was responsible for the defense of the Riverlands and he failed miserably , the Lannisters defeated his forces pretty quickly and easily . He was captive in a cage in front of Riverrun which was under siege when Robb arrived . He definitely improved later on and the Battle of the Fords proved it and he may turn out to be a very  good commander going forward if he gets the chance but there is no denying that the start of the war was a disaster for the Riverlands . 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

31 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It would be very difficult to get armored men over Harrenhall's walls , they would have to build massive ladders and they would be exposed to fire from above for long periods

Ladders can be made, as can siege towers and grappling hooks. I don't know why making them extra large would be impossible.

32 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

300 to 400 hundred men should be able to hold off an army fairly easily

Sorry, but I don't know where you get that figure from. I'm sure there is an optimum number, but we don't know what it is. The point is though, it's lots, and locking them all up inside Harrenhal essentially takes them out of action. 

35 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Frankly if Tywin came upon Harrenhall and it was strongly garrisoned with a experienced leader he would just pass it by ( why would he risk thousands of men to take the castle?) Lady Whent just handing him the castle was a huge blow to Robb . 

No-one really refers to it as a massive blow. It's obviously strategically important, as it changes hands a few times, but it doesn't seem fundamental to Tywin's plans. It was a useful place to hole up, but it's not like if he had camped out a few miles to the West of it Robb would have been able to march on him.

31 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

we are comparing the Westerlands to the Riverlands not the Northmen . I would imagine that the Rivermen and Westerrmen are pretty similar when it comes to armor and weapons and training

Except, as I mentioned, Tywin's infantry are much more superior. We don't know about the equipment, but given the Lannisters greater resources, we can presume they were better supplied.

32 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

there is no denying that the start of the war was a disaster for the Riverlands

True, and while Edmure bears some responsibility for that, there are other factors, which are discussed on this thread.

[Nittanian]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

300 to 400 hundred men should be able to hold off an army fairly easily 

That matches with this SSM:

Quote

was Tywin really obligingly marching into Robb's trap when Edmure stopped him at the Red Fork? Did he really count on Lorch and Hoat with their IIRC 300 men holding Harrenhal and the northern prisoners in his absence?

Harrenhal is an immensely strong castle, and a garrison of three hundred is quite sizeable in medieval terms. Ser Amory =should= have been able to hold it. Lord Tywin likely thought that Roose Bolton might descend on the castle and besiege it, in which case Lorch could likely have held out for half a year or longer. The wild card here was Vargo Hoat changing sides.

In ACOK Tywin leaves Amory with a garrison of one hundred westermen, along with the foraging Brave Companions (whose numbers are unknown, IIRC). 

Quote

She could go where she would. The garrison numbered no more than a hundred men, so small a troop that they were lost in Harrenhal. The Hall of a Hundred Hearths was closed off, along with many of the lesser buildings, even the Wailing Tower. Ser Amory Lorch resided in the castellan's chambers in Kingspyre, themselves as spacious as a lord's, and Arya and the other servants had moved to the cellars beneath him so they would be close at hand. While Lord Tywin had been in residence, there was always a man-at-arms wanting to know your business. But now there were only a hundred men left to guard a thousand doors, and no one seemed to know who should be where, or care much. (ACOK Arya IX)

Aenys Frey's opinion of Harrenhal is that:

Quote

"We must not allow Lord Tywin to trap us here at Harrenhal," Ser Aenys Frey was saying as Arya filled the washbasin. A grey stooped giant of a man with watery red eyes and huge gnarled hands, Ser Aenys had brought fifteen hundred Frey swords south to Harrenhal, yet it often seemed as if he were helpless to command even his own brothers. "The castle is so large it requires an army to hold it, and once surrounded we cannot feed an army. Nor can we hope to lay in sufficient supplies. The country is ash, the villages given over to wolves, the harvest burnt or stolen. Autumn is on us, yet there is no food in store and none being planted. We live on forage, and if the Lannisters deny that to us, we will be down to rats and shoe leather in a moon's turn." (ACOK Arya X)

 

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Except, as I mentioned, Tywin's infantry are much more superior. We don't know about the equipment, but given the Lannisters greater resources, we can presume they were better supplied.

 

Why would the Westerland infantry be that much more superior than the Riverland infantry? i doubt there is much difference between your run of the mill Westerland soldier versus the Riverland soldiers . 

 

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Ladders can be made, as can siege towers and grappling hooks. I don't know why making them extra large would be impossible.

 

Siege towers and massive ladders that can scale the incredibly huge walls of Harrenhall takes time and a  lot of resources and men , does Tywin have that amount of time and resources in the middle of his war with the Riverlands ? doesn't him building those towers and ladders and then using them on Harrenhall expose him to attack from Robb and the Riverlords . Laying siege to massive castle like Harrnehall is not as simple as throwing a few towers and ladders together and storming it. It would not be impossible but just very difficult and risky . What happens when he storms the castle and at that moment Robb attacks him? that could be a disaster for him . 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Why would the Westerland infantry be that much more superior than the Riverland infantry? i doubt there is much difference between your run of the mill Westerland soldier versus the Riverland soldiers .

I quoted the SSM above - 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1174/

"Infantry outnumbered cavalry by a considerable margin, but for the most part we are talking about feudal levies and peasant militia, with little discipline and less training. Although some lords do better than others. Tywin Lannister's infantry was notoriously well disciplined, and the City Watch of Lannisport is well trained as well... much better than their counterparts in Oldtown and King's Landing."

3 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Siege towers and massive ladders that can scale the incredibly huge walls of Harrenhall takes time and a  lot of resources and men , does Tywin have that amount of time and resources in the middle of his war with the Riverlands

Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think holding onto Harrenhall is as important as you say. Like I said, Tywin could have just holed up elsewhere, while 300-400 soldiers are permanently stuck holding Harrenhall.

[Blackfish Tully]

50 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I quoted the SSM above - 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1174/

"Infantry outnumbered cavalry by a considerable margin, but for the most part we are talking about feudal levies and peasant militia, with little discipline and less training. Although some lords do better than others. Tywin Lannister's infantry was notoriously well disciplined, and the City Watch of Lannisport is well trained as well... much better than their counterparts in Oldtown and King's Landing."

Maybe, maybe not. But I don't think holding onto Harrenhall is as important as you say. Like I said, Tywin could have just holed up elsewhere, while 300-400 soldiers are permanently stuck holding Harrenhall.

The SSM does not say anything about the Westerland infantry being any better then the Riverland infantry. 

As for Tywin holing up somewhere else , where would he go ? If he camps outside of the castle he is vulnerable to attack by Robb and the Riverlords , in Harrenhall he is protected from any attack and he can direct his campaign from a safe place. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The SSM does not say anything about the Westerland infantry being any better then the Riverland infantry.

There's no point quibbling, GRRM specifically points to the Westerland infantry as being notoriously well-disciplined. They wouldn't be notorious for it if others were better or the same. It's a minor point though so lets not get bogged down in it.

8 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

As for Tywin holing up somewhere else , where would he go ? If he camps outside of the castle he is vulnerable to attack by Robb and the Riverlords , in Harrenhall he is protected from any attack and he can direct his campaign from a safe place. 

Like I said, Harrenhall's convenient, but I don't think he'd be vulnerable to attack simply by camping outside. There are plenty of ways to establish a strong defensive position.  

 

[Blackfish Tully]

11 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

There's no point quibbling, GRRM specifically points to the Westerland infantry as being notoriously well-disciplined. They wouldn't be notorious for it if others were better or the same. It's a minor point though so lets not get bogged down in it.

Like I said, Harrenhall's convenient, but I don't think he'd be vulnerable to attack simply by camping outside. There are plenty of ways to establish a strong defensive position.  

 

There would be no way to establish a defensive position that is anywhere close to being behind massive walls. Without having Harrenhall to camp in Tywin may  have been forced to leave the Riverlands. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I doubt Greatjon was looking to rebel , he was just testing Robb . 

Yes, and had Robb not passed that test he and his men would have returned home leaving Robb weakened. 

10 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I meant in terms of numbers, and I would also suggest that Tywin's superior resources might mean they were better equipped? I think I read somewhere that GRRM said that the Lannister infantry were particularly well-trained as well. 

Well notice on that quote that the emphasis is on Tywin and not the Westerlands. I imagine that was not the case with Tytos and I'd imagine that in other eras some other Lords of the realm had the honour of the best trained infantry. 

Wealth does not automatically mean superior training just like a lack of wealth does not automatically assume poor training. It is all on the commanders and how important they see it. 

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The Riverlands seemed to be massively unprepared for any conflicts especially from the Westerlands .

It was a united realm, there was no reason to defend against neighbouring allies. You could label the same accusation at the Starks for failing to properly defend their coast against the Ironborn. 

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The fact that Lady Whent did not have enough men to defend her castle was a major blow to Robb .

How was it a major blow to Robb? Robb had nothing to do with the Riverlands when it was taken, it was a major blow to Hoster and Edmure, not Robb. 

When Willis Wode abandoned Harrenhal to help Cat he could not have possibly known the consequences of doing so. 

11 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

She just gave Tywin Harrenhall which was the perfect vehicle for him to use to keep pressure on the Riverlands but also to be close enough to Kings Landing to assist in any siege there . If she were to have held the castle against Tywin he would have been put in a more difficult spot .   

If only she and the Tully's could have know that there was going to be a major civil war and that Robert would die. Robert's death changed everything and Edmure had already raised his banners before that. For Edmure he thought he was dealing with the anger over Cat's abduction of Tyrion, he could not have known that his brother-in-law would be arrested and Tywin made Hand. 

[Lord Wraith]

Should have just let Baelish marry Lysa after she raped him. Give them Harrenhal as a seat and let Baelish fix all the problems. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well notice on that quote that the emphasis is on Tywin and not the Westerlands. I imagine that was not the case with Tytos and I'd imagine that in other eras some other Lords of the realm had the honour of the best trained infantry. 

I was specifically talking about Tywin's invasion though.

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Should have just let Baelish marry Lysa after she raped him

Come again?

[Blackfish Tully]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

It was a united realm, there was no reason to defend against neighbouring allies. You could label the same accusation at the Starks for failing to properly defend their coast against the Ironborn.

It has only been 20 years since a major civil war where all the 'allies' were attacking and invading each other, hell even Hoster was at war with his own bannermen so for the Tully's not be prepared for attack from foreign powers , allies or even their own bannermen is just such a bad idea .

 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How was it a major blow to Robb? Robb had nothing to do with the Riverlands when it was taken, it was a major blow to Hoster and Edmure, not Robb. 

Considering that Robb was King of the Riverlands and Harrenhall is the largest castle in the Riverlands and it was occupied by his mortal enemy so how is that not a major blow to Robb ?

[Bernie Mac]

20 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It has only been 20 years since a major civil war where all the 'allies' were attacking and invading each other, hell even Hoster was at war with his own bannermen so for the Tully's not be prepared for attack from foreign powers , allies or even their own bannermen is just such a bad idea .

Like it is for the Starks in regards to the coast or any other Overlord with some kind of dodgy weakness, Westeros is a united realm, for the same reason New York is not building defences against Pennsylvania the Riverlands is not focused on spending huge amounts of resources and money on defences against the Westerlands, North, Vale, Crownlands and Reach. It is impractical and the Riverlands has existed as a realm for more than a thousand years, if a proper defence was not possible when they were independent then it is not going to be now. 

And this is the problem, the Riverlands is weak at every border, how could they predict which border they would be vulnerable at? 

20 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Considering that Robb was King of the Riverlands and Harrenhall is the largest castle in the Riverlands and it was occupied by his mortal enemy so how is that not a major blow to Robb ?

Harrenhall was never in his property. It was the crown's territory before he even fought his first battle. He can't lose something that was never actually held by him. 

[Blackfish Tully]

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Like it is for the Starks in regards to the coast or any other Overlord with some kind of dodgy weakness, Westeros is a united realm, for the same reason New York is not building defences against Pennsylvania the Riverlands is not focused on spending huge amounts of resources and money on defences against the Westerlands, North, Vale, Crownlands and Reach. It is impractical and the Riverlands has existed as a realm for more than a thousand years, if a proper defence was not possible when they were independent then it is not going to be now. 

 

New York was not at war with Pennsylvania 20 years before so it's a pretty bad example .Don't forget that the Iron Born rose up in rebellion 10 years ago and attacked the Westerlands so it's not an unprecedented event .  Frankly the number one job of the Lord Paramount is the defense of their territory and the Tully's failed miserably.  If you want to say that Robb failed as well when it came to defending the North than i have no problem with that .

 

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Harrenhall was never in his property. It was the crown's territory before he even fought his first battle. He can't lose something that was never actually held by him. 

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one . Harrenhall is the largest castle in the Riverlands and was occupied by Tywin Lannister when Robb was King of the Riverlands and at war with Tywin so i just can't understand how you can say that was not a major blow against Robb. .IF Lady When had held onto Harrenhall against Tywin would that not have been a better situation for Robb ? 

[Bernie Mac]

25 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

New York was not at war with Pennsylvania 20 years before so it's a pretty bad example .

Have you forgotten your original point? You chastized the Tully's for not building defences against the Westerlands, a realm they had not fought against for almost two centuries. 

 

25 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Don't forget that the Iron Born rose up in rebellion 10 years ago and attacked the Westerlands so it's not an unprecedented event .

How does that effect Riverrun?

25 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 Frankly the number one job of the Lord Paramount is the defense of their territory and the Tully's failed miserably.

As did the Starks, as did the Lannisters, as did the Baratheons... 

What did Hoster and Edmure do wrong? The Riverlands, for its entire existence, has always been vulnerable. were have these hundreds of rulers gone wrong. Give them the benefit of your wisdom? 

25 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

If you want to say that Robb failed as well when it came to defending the North than i have no problem with that .

All the realms did. And the Riverlands are the most vulnerable, they are the centre of the realm, no natural borders and potential enemies at every corner. They are the rabbits in Watsership Down, only moving Warren is not an option. 

25 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

i guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one . Harrenhall is the largest castle in the Riverlands and was occupied by Tywin Lannister when Robb was King of the Riverlands

You mean when Robb was occupying the Riverlands?

Robb never ruled Harrenhal, when his vassals pleaded with him to march on it and retake it he was not interested in it, not was he interested in removing the Westerlanders from the Riverlands. 

25 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

and at war with Tywin so i just can't understand how you can say that was not a major blow against Robb. .

Because a blow is a loss, Robb never lost Harrenhal, it was a property he never had, nor did the ruler of Harrenhal, the Whents, swear fealty to Robb nor did Robb feel the need to appoint a new ruler of Harrenhal, given it was not his to do so. 

25 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

IF Lady When had held onto Harrenhall against Tywin would that not have been a better situation for Robb ? 

It would have been a better situation for Edmure.

[Blackfish Tully]

28 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Have you forgotten your original point? You chastized the Tully's for not building defences against the Westerlands, a realm they had not fought against for almost two centuries. 

 

The Tully’s should have defenses and plans for defense against not only the Westerlands but against everyone internally and externally , Westeroes has long history of invasion and civil war so having defenses prepared is required by each Lord Paramount. You have to admit that Edmure did a poor job directing the War in the Riverlands , his armies were defeated and he ended up in a cage in front of Riverrun while it was under siege , if Robb had not saved them it would have been a complete victory for the Lannisters. 

[Blackfish Tully]

31 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

It would have been a better situation for Edmure.

Did Edmure not bend his knee to Robb as King of the Riverlands? Was Edmure not Robb’s bannermen? How could it be better for Edmure and not for Robb? 

[Bernie Mac]

15 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Did Edmure not bend his knee to Robb as King of the Riverlands? Was Edmure not Robb’s bannermen? How could it be better for Edmure and not for Robb? 

Because it was in the Tully's possession and they lost it, thus a blow. It was never in Robb's possession and the very reason why he has gained some of the Riverlands as a kingdom is because Tywin attacked and took some lands from the Riverlands. Tywin not attacking means Robb would never have been the King of the Riverlands in the first place. 

16 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The Tully’s should have defenses and plans for defense against not only the Westerlands but against everyone internally and externally ,

They may well do, having plans is not the same as having plans that work. The Riverlands have existed as a realm for more than a thousand years and they have never been secure, long before the Tully's gained power. 

What should they have done? Making vague statements that they should have defenses is easy, give actual constructive advice. 

16 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Westeroes has long history of invasion and civil war so having defenses prepared is required by each Lord Paramount.

As does most real life countries, but you don't see neigbours building a wall around themselves from their fellow countrymen. 

16 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

You have to admit that Edmure did a poor job directing the War in the Riverlands , his armies were defeated and he ended up in a cage in front of Riverrun while it was under siege ,

He was up against a larger army, the King was still alive so could not have expected that Robert would sit back and do nothing. 

16 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

if Robb had not saved them it would have been a complete victory for the Lannisters. 

I'm sorry, you may not have read up until AFFC but Robb saved no one, he just prolonged the eventual defeat. 

[Lord Wraith]

On 3/24/2018 at 6:00 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Come again?

Baelish gets blackout drunk, Blackfish takes him up to his room and Lysa goes up to "comfort him" aka rape him.

Baelish misremembers this as him sleeping with Cat leading to to the duel with Brandon and everything after that.