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Could Daenarys keep control of slaver's bay and the 7 kingdoms?


Varysblackfyre321

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Well, she now knows that freeing people, breaking the old order, and giving the people a blueprint for a new government didn't work. Someone with the knowledge and strength and popular support has to stay on site, and at the very least, train the next generation or so of sucessors. So, either Daenerys basically gives up on her birthright and stays in Slaver's Bay - or she decides to the 7 hellls with Essos, and moves on to Westeros.

At the end of Dance w/Dragons, it sure looked as if she'd had her fill of the blood sport-loving, dog eating, tokar-wearing Meereenese and was ready for fire & blood. Honestly, I think she'd do better among her own people.

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19 minutes ago, zandru said:

Well, she now knows that freeing people, breaking the old order, and giving the people a blueprint for a new government didn't work. Someone with the knowledge and strength and popular support has to stay on site, and at the very least, train the next generation or so of sucessors. So, either Daenerys basically gives up on her birthright and stays in Slaver's Bay - or she decides to the 7 hellls with Essos, and moves on to Westeros.

At the end of Dance w/Dragons, it sure looked as if she'd had her fill of the blood sport-loving, dog eating, tokar-wearing Meereenese and was ready for fire & blood. Honestly, I think she'd do better among her own people.

Yeah, more or less my take as well. I do think it's possible for her to rule both, but that will depend on how well she delegates. 

disclaimer: I don't think that's where the story is going, but as a sort of 'what if' scenario.

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Even Targaryens with their five huge dragons were unable to simultaneously control Westeros and Essos. Eventually they had to completely withdraw from Essos, and focus their attention only on Westeros. So with dragons alone, Dany won't be able to be Queen of both Essos and 7K. Though I see an option in which Dany can have both. That's if Rhaego is alive.

I think that Rhaego was born alive, and then kidnapped by Dothraki, by Drogo's Ko. And thus this kidnapping is first out of three predicted treasons - the one for blood. In Vaes Dothrak Dany will find out what really happened with her son. And then she will burn those, that kidnapped her baby. This will be the second fire from the prophecy - the one for death. After that, all other Dothraki will follow Dany, as their new leader. She defeated all of their khals, thus by Dothraki law, she is their new ruler. In Drogo's khalasar, there was 40 thousands Dothraki. So probably in total, there are a few millions of them, and among those, there are at least a few hundred thousands warriors. If they will serve to Dany, then by using them, she will be able to control entire Essos. Dothraki is a mighty force. The only reason why they are not rulers of Essos, is that they were divided, and they were not motivated. They didn't had a common goal. But Dany can unite them, and she can motivate them, to do what she wants.

Rhaego is the Stallion that will mount the world. Dothraki believe in that prophecy. But they don't follow those that are weak. And Rhaego is still too young to be strong. Though if Dany will give to him one of her dragons, and he will become dragonrider, then he will be more dangerous than thousand Dothraki. Thus the problem is solved - Rhaego is the Stallion, and he is strong, because he is dragonrider.

Dany can bring all Dothraki and Rhaego to Meereen. Then thru those Dothraki she will establish control over Essos. After that she can leave Slaver's Bay under Rhaego's control, and go to Westeros. Dany will leave one of her dragons with Rhaego, as his personal bodyguard, that will also symbolise his power. And she can leave a few of her people with Rhaego, to be his regents and advisors. Someone like Quaithe is perfect for that role. She's wise, she can predict future, and she can get in contact with Dany any moment, using her magic, even if Dany will be away in Westeros. Some Dothraki will stay in Essos, and some will come with Dany to 7K. Thus Dany will have Dothraki army, Unsullied army, a few of sellswords companies, that will serve to her, and two dragons, one for her, and one for Jon.

Thus, if Dany will be smart, then she can have everything. And the main difference between Dany and her ancestors, the difference that will help her to accomplish something, in what even first Aegon failed - to control both continents, is that Dany has a leverage against Dothraki - her son is the Stallion. If he will become dragonrider, then it wouldn't even matter, that he's still a child, Dothraki will follow him anyway.

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12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaego is the Stallion that will mount the world. Dothraki believe in that prophecy. But they don't follow those that are weak. And Rhaego is still too young to be strong.

Rhaego is one or two years old. If even alive. And the Dosh Khaleen prophesy that EVERY baby from a khaleesi is going to be "the Stallion that F*cks the World". It is known. Rhaego was nothing special. Moreover, Dothraki don't settle in cities or have anything we'd call a "government". They care nothing for the well-being of their people - anybody who can't fight them off is just there for them to rape, kill, torture, and sell as a slave. The Dothraki Sea is littered with the ruins of great cities, all destroyed by the Dothraki.

8 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

But he is half dragon and half man with a tail and wings, so he will probably grow quicker then a regular human. He might also be able to breath fire out of his mouth and perhaps even fly.

Plus, he's full of grave worms! Don't forget that!

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I anticipate that the Slaver coalition will be defeated outside Meereen, and that Daenerys will subjugate much of Western Essos, before invading Westeros.  So, I'd expect her to remain Queen of Meereen, at least in name.  She'd probably appoint a deputy who would have the real power, eg the Shavepate.

 

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

She'd probably appoint a deputy who would have the real power, eg the Shavepate.

I've always liked the Shavepate. He seems to be aligned with Daenerys and her goals, and with Meereenese culture. Not sure why Barristan Selmy is so distrustful of him, but hopefully we'll find out in Winds of Winter. (stop that laughing; I know it will eventually come out!)

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1 hour ago, White Ravens said:

He's also too dead to be strong.

We'll see about that.

12 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

But he is half dragon and half man with a tail and wings, so he will probably grow quicker then a regular human. He might also be able to breath fire out of his mouth and perhaps even fly.

It's possible that Mirri lied about Rhaego. Could be that everything she said was a lie. The baby was born normal, and alive.

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Rhaego is one or two years old.

He was born on eve of 298/299. And now it's a middle or the end of 300. So Rhaego is close to 2 years old. Another 6 months for Dothraki to go from Vaes Dothrak to Meereen. 6 more months to establish their control over Essos. Another 6 months to prepare fleet, and all necessary things, for a cross continental journey of 100.000 warriors, and their horses (3 per person). By that time Rhaego will be 3 years old, closer to 4. Children of that age already can be horseriders.

And to become a dragonrider, is easier than to become a horserider. Because horses are just animals, while dragons and their riders has spiritual connection. Dragon is more than just an animal, for dragonrider he/she is a soulmate. So Rhaego's age is not an obstacle for him to become a dragonrider.   

Also if you'll return to my original post, then maybe this time you'll see, that I wrote what Dany can do, in case IF Rhaego is alive.

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18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I feel the only way to preserve any sort social Justice Daenarys had made in the region would be to set up a new dominion and make her presence in the region more permanent. So can it be done successfully?

Of course not. she can't even keep one city under control

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21 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

Only in Crusader Kings 2 can you manage two kingdoms  half a world away using medieval methods of communication and management.

Dragons might help. 

Also, while the distances are probably greater (I say probably because we don't really know how big Planetos is). Medieval monarchs often controlled regions very far apart. Richard I conquered Cyprus while still ruling England, Normandy and Gascony. 

 

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18 hours ago, zandru said:

Well, she now knows that freeing people, breaking the old order, and giving the people a blueprint for a new government didn't work. Someone with the knowledge and strength and popular support has to stay on site, and at the very least, train the next generation or so of sucessors. So, either Daenerys basically gives up on her birthright and stays in Slaver's Bay - or she decides to the 7 hellls with Essos, and moves on to Westeros.

At the end of Dance w/Dragons, it sure looked as if she'd had her fill of the blood sport-loving, dog eating, tokar-wearing Meereenese and was ready for fire & blood. Honestly, I think she'd do better among her own people.

This.  I viewed her whole arc in ADWD as coming to terms with the mistake she made back in ASOS deciding to stay in Mereen.  She doesn't belong there and despite her best efforts, she is not capable of changing an entire way of life in a few short years.  Especially with her outsider status and the fact that she truly doesn't get or understand the Meereeneese nor does she really care to try and reach that understanding.  We see through her own POV that she has a ton of natural sympathy for slaves and their plight, but she has only contempt for Meereenese culture.  She hates the "floppy ears" and at a certain point in ADWD, essentially abdicates ruling over Mereen and lets Hizdahr and her council handle all the daily audiences with the people.

And yeah, as to your bolded, I have to wonder whether we are supposed to be viewing that as bias on Dany's part or whether GRRM intended the Meereenese to come across that way...I'd definitely say the former is more likely especially in light of Dany's "epiphany" at the end of ADWD about not planting trees and all that good stuff.  

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29 minutes ago, Daendrew said:

Only in Crusader Kings 2 can you manage two kingdoms half a world away using medieval methods of communication and management.

They have even better method of communication, than modern e-mail, cell phones or sattelite phones. They have glass candles. Using them, it's possible to communicate with anyone, all over the world. They always have signal, anywhere, and weather don't affect their signal, and they are never out of range. And shadowbinders can control people, like Melisandre controlled Mance thru their magic rubies. And if your subordinates don't listen to you, be efficient like Stannis, just send a shadow to kill them. ^_^

Magic is a supreme technology. Whoever can use it, can rule the world.

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21 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I feel the only way to preserve any sort social Justice Daenarys had made in the region would be to set up a new dominion and make her presence in the region more permanent. So can it be done successfully?

For most rulers, I say no.  For her, it is possible.  She has the followers of R'hllor on her side and religion is a powerful tool.  The story may indeed go in that direction.  Honestly, there will not be much to rule over in the west.  There will be little incentive for a hunting and gathering people to unite and follow one leader.  I don't see too much in the way of civilization continuing in the west if the winter lasts for more than a few years.  

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1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

This.  I viewed her whole arc in ADWD as coming to terms with the mistake she made back in ASOS deciding to stay in Mereen.  She doesn't belong there and despite her best efforts, she is not capable of changing an entire way of life in a few short years.  Especially with her outsider status and the fact that she truly doesn't get or understand the Meereeneese nor does she really care to try and reach that understanding.  We see through her own POV that she has a ton of natural sympathy for slaves and their plight, but she has only contempt for Meereenese culture.  She hates the "floppy ears" and at a certain point in ADWD, essentially abdicates ruling over Mereen and lets Hizdahr and her council handle all the daily audiences with the people.

She is capable of changing the culture of Slaver's Bay, the problem is she hasn't really tried.  What she should have done was stripped the Masters of every scrap of wealth they possessed, and redistributed that, and left an actual military force to hold the area.  Her problem is that she only takes the barest minimum of the human and portable wealth of the Masters; she doesn't take their land or buildings or means of production.  Which means the former slaves are immediately dependent on their slavers for sustenance, again.

And by the way, we are meant to feel contempt for Meereenese culture.  It's driven home again and again.  First off, the whole culture is invented out of whole cloth, there IS no history to it; it was made up after Valyria fell 400 years ago.  They don't even speak their own language, just a corrupted form of High Valyrian.  The entire point of Slaver's Bay is that the slave culture has so distorted every aspect of life there; the society itself is devoted to obscenity and violence to such an extent that it's warped the very culture (for example Astapor's Harpy holds a chain instead of a lightning bolt, symbolizing how the Ghiscari have reinvented themselves to be slavers, and not are slavers because that's their culture).

But no, she can't rule both.  It's too far.

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