Could Daenarys keep control of slaver's bay and the 7 kingdoms?

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Does the good outweigh the bad?  This is certainly up for debate.  Hizdahr and his pit fighters make shiny arguments for the benefits of the fighting pits, and yes, I would agree that perhaps within a slave society wherein most of the population is stuck in beyond shitty predicaments, that pit fighting offers a possible way out.  But in a "free" society?  Definitely much up for debate, not least of which is that the fighting pits glorify violence and cruelty.

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Yes. The only real reason for not allowing the fighting pits is people being forced into it. With the proper oversight the chance of that happening is very unlikely. And, when weighing the risk of a potential couple of people vs the the benifits it could give to hundreds of thousands lives, the entire city, simply put the latter outweighs the former. 

Mereen is suffering serious economic turmoil, disease and hunger are festering, people need something to look forward to, something they can all spend money on and bring the freedmen, and the Mereenese toghether. 

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

It's certainly more complicated I agree, but there is a middle ground as @cpg2016 suggested above, which I agree with.  There's a middle ground between slaughtering all the masters and basically leaving them alone.  

I in no way implied that total annialation and simply leaving them alone. My point was the former had been tried with the idea of it being by all end all solution to fix a slaver society. Daenarys at this point of "fire and blood" splil is being willfully ignorant and/or arrogant on her ability to fixing the problems of the region by just murdering more of the right families. 

[cpg2016]

41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I in no way implied that total annialation and simply leaving them alone. My point was the former had been tried with the idea of it being by all end all solution to fix a slaver society. Daenarys at this point of "fire and blood" splil is being willfully ignorant and/or arrogant on her ability to fixing the problems of the region by just murdering more of the right families. 

The former most emphatically has NOT been tried.  In fact, Dany has hewed much closer to the "leave them alone" side of the equation, rather than "fire and blood."  This is most obvious in the treatment of the cupbearers in Meereen; Ser Barristan's attitude makes is abundantly clear what Dany's attitude would have been, pre-locust.

It's actually worth pointing out that murdering the elite of Slaver's Bay is actually a pretty decent idea.  They have no skills, are wholly evil, and all in all add nothing to society, and if left alive will perpetrate a vile and immoral code into the future.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

It's actually worth pointing out that murdering the elite of Slaver's Bay is actually a pretty decent idea.  They have no skills, are wholly evil, and all in all add nothing to society, and if left alive will perpetrate a vile and immoral code into the future.

I sort of agree w/ this. We all know Martin's not into wholly good/wholly bad characters, but w/ Slaver's Bay, its ruling class and its culture he really depicted a whole lot of nasty. And that's the point, I suppose. Dany will go full F&B on the whole lot of them. But she won't like the taste of it, and when she gets to Westeros she'll be better prepared [and less entitled]. 

Or she goes full mad queen antagonist. 

[cpg2016]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I sort of agree w/ this. We all know Martin's not into wholly good/wholly bad characters, but w/ Slaver's Bay, its ruling class and its culture he really depicted a whole lot of nasty. And that's the point, I suppose. Dany will go full F&B on the whole lot of them. But she won't like the taste of it, and when she gets to Westeros she'll be better prepared [and less entitled]. 

Or she goes full mad queen antagonist. 

I'm not sure i agree that Martin isn't into wholly good/bad characters.  I think the important characters, the protagonists, are shades of gray, and the world is too.

But it's hard to find any redeeming qualities in, say, Ramsay Bolton or Joffrey Baratheon.  Ditto the Masters.  Without exception, all their customs are morally indefensible, their entire way of life is evil and is rotting their souls.  It's why all the Masters are portrayed as buffoons and idiots; they are so corrupted by their way of life that none of them have any skills, any sense, nothing.

[Kandrax]

3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

'm not sure i agree that Martin isn't into wholly good/bad characters. 

Mee too.

Heck, nine of his characters earned title Complete Monster at tvtropes, which is only given to completely black characters.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

I'm not sure i agree that Martin isn't into wholly good/bad characters.  I think the important characters, the protagonists, are shades of gray, and the world is too.

Well, I meant the main-ish characters and the setting. There are wholly evil characters, and wholly good ones. And that's a good thing, b/c even though most people are not totally white nor totally black, the extreme of the spectrum does exist...

6 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

But it's hard to find any redeeming qualities in, say, Ramsay Bolton or Joffrey Baratheon. 

and that's why we have characters like these.

 

6 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Ditto the Masters.  Without exception, all their customs are morally indefensible, their entire way of life is evil and is rotting their souls.  It's why all the Masters are portrayed as buffoons and idiots; they are so corrupted by their way of life that none of them have any skills, any sense, nothing.

I agree, the whole thing is depicted in the worst possible light.  

 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

former most emphatically has NOT been tried.  In fact, Dany has hewed much closer to the "leave them alone" side of the equation, rather than "fire and blood."  This is most obvious in the treatment of the cupbearers in Meereen; Ser Barristan's attitude makes is abundantly clear what Dany's attitude would have been, pre-locust.

Correction: tried in Astaphor.

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

It's actually worth pointing out that murdering the elite of Slaver's Bay is actually a pretty decent idea.  They have no skills, are wholly evil, and all in all add nothing to society, and if left alive will perpetrate a vile and immoral code into the future.

It's a good idea if only the very elite of society is where this was coming from. Again, it's quite clear this "slavery is ok" line of thinking doesn't stop at a few rich snobs. It's an entire society's view. Nearly every freeman benifit could point to slavery being a benifit to them in some way; from economics(someone has to go pick up the slaves after all), to the feeling of superiorty(I'm poor but at least I'm not a slave),   Quite honestly, there are bound to be plenty of slaves who have a similar story to that of the crewmen of the ship that had carried Penny and Tyrion,who were enslaved. Likely their line of thought of slavery not being bad really isn't going to change. Unlikely they are all evil. And who exactly is going to be responsible for managing a city would be vastly reduced. for one don't think the wards in Daenarys care so repugnant they deserve to be murdered.  They have skills. Just not in low-skills. Management of big architecture projects,managing a goverment, keeping a healthy economy, poetry, art, are things that would be in their forte. They(although using cruel means), make advances in architecture, ships ect.  and through their efforts have made it so that the very least of their society generally are better than that of the peasants of the sunset kingdoms to say they have no skills is as ridiculous as saying the lords of the seven kingdoms have no skills. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

37 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Mee too.

Heck, nine of his characters earned title Complete Monster at tvtropes, which is only given to completely black characters.

Tyrion is a rapist and murderer, and a sexist and elitist and a little bit of a narchisst. Arya is a murderer. Daenarys tortured a man and his daughters and wanted to get Drogo to rape Westeroes to get her son a crown. Robb was willingly to let thousands die for his pride. Bran is boring. Truly most of the main group are awful people. 

[Anck Su Namun]

On 3/26/2018 at 5:38 PM, Son of Man said:

It would be unprecedented but this is Daenerys we're talking about, the agent of change, the Mhysa.  I would say it is easier to take control and keep control of the Seven Kingdoms because her family is already recognized as the rightful rulers.  They have tradition on their side.  The Baratheon rule is a drop in the bucket in terms of tradition.  Ruling the Seven Kingdoms is an easy transition.  Slaver's Bay is a different dog altogether.  The motivation to practice slavery is very strong among the children of the harpy and it is easy profit.  I see the only way to keep slavery from returning is to maintain a strong military presence.  It can be done but she will have to rule from Slaver's Bay and rule by proxy in Westeros.

Slaver's Bay is a chance for our young heroine to gain experience in the toughest place imaginable.  She is a hero and I don't think she will leave Slaver's Bay until the hundreds of thousands that she rescued are safe.  Getting control of the Dothraki people is crucial because they are a big component of the slave trade.

There is one way to maintain control of Slaver's Bay (Bay of Dragons) and the Seven Kingdoms.  Create an empire.  Some of the governing will have to be delegated while Dany herself is the Empress.  

[Darth Sidious]

It can be done.  The easiest way is to set up a feudal system.  Elevate a house like the Kandaqs to power and they will follow the Queen's laws.  Empress might be the better term here since the Ghiscari and the Westerosi are different people and putting them both under one rule creates an empire.  And oh yeah, the Dothraki will have to cooperate because they are the dominant power in Essos. 

[Kandrax]

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Tyrion is a rapist and murderer, and a sexist and elitist and a little bit of a narchisst. Arya is a murderer. Daenarys tortured a man and his daughters and wanted to get Drogo to rape Westeroes to get her son a crown. Robb was willingly to let thousands die for his pride. Bran is boring. Truly most of the main group are awful people. 

None of them is.

[Rondo]

Dany has dragons, the Unsullied, and soon the Dothraki.  The dominant religion of the largest land mass thinks she's a god come to life.  I will have to say, yes.  She can do it.  She will have to appoint governors who will basically allow people to have local administration as long as they don't practice slavery.  

In Westeros, the king creates the laws and leaves it up to the wardens and lords to enforce the laws.  This system should work on a larger scale.  

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 3/27/2018 at 6:48 PM, Anck Su Namun said:

Slaver's Bay is a chance for our young heroine to gain experience in the toughest place imaginable.  She is a hero and I don't think she will leave Slaver's Bay until the hundreds of thousands that she rescued are safe.  Getting control of the Dothraki people is crucial because they are a big component of the slave trade.

There is one way to maintain control of Slaver's Bay (Bay of Dragons) and the Seven Kingdoms.  Create an empire.  Some of the governing will have to be delegated while Dany herself is the Empress.  

I agree that it can be done.  Through many different ways it can be done.  Establishing a freehold where all of the highborn families compete for supremacy will work but it's not the preferred method to me.  It uses up resources and capital when these families constantly fight for supremacy.  Resources and capital that could better be used.  Otoh, I don't think that world is quite ready for democracy.  Each region should have its own governor who answers to the monarch, which is Dany.  A representative form of government where each region will send an official to take up residence in the capital could work and serve as liaisons.

[Light a wight tonight]

On 3/23/2018 at 6:14 PM, Sea Dragon said:

Yes because she has dragons. This is the same reason why Aegon the conquerer was able to have multiple wives and practice incest. Dragons let you have lots of things normal people can't have or do. 

She has partial control of one untrained adolescent dragon. We don't know who, if anyone, will control the other two. 

[Damsel in Distress]

On 3/26/2018 at 0:59 PM, Megorova said:

And with whom out of dozens khals should she marry? Dothraki are not united, they don't have a single leader, thru marriage with whom Dany can gain control over all of them. The only one who can rule all Dothraki, is the Stallion. And that Stallion should be - 1. male, 2. Dothraki, and Dany is neither of those.

I strongly disagree with you.  All of that will not matter to Dany.  Dany is not one to honor tradition for the sake of honoring tradition.  Hizdahr had no control over the city of Meereen.  He was not its king.  Dany married to smooth out the transition and appease the Meereenese.  Dany could easily marry one of the khals for political reasons.  Dany herself will unite the Dothraki into one people but her new husband will help smooth her rule.  

If Rhaego is really dead, then GRRM will have to pull some other Deus Ex Machina, to make Dany rule over all Dothraki.

Not necessarily.  Dany is the Mother of Dragons, the most powerful individual on that planet.  The Dothraki will follow the strong and she is the strongest.

Though Dothraki won't serve to R'hllor. Their long awaited Messiah is the Stallion. If the Stallion will turn out to be Azor Ahai/promised Prince, then that's entirely different matter - then they will follow him. Red priests believe that Dany is Azor Ahai, but is that in any way relevant for Dothraki? They are not followers of Azor Ahai, so whatever red priests believe, has nothing to do with Dothraki's motivation, whom they should follow.

Dany's small khalasar see her as someone more than a khal.  Dany has the ability to change the Dothraki, even to the point of reshaping their culture.  A few fly overs by Drogon, broiling a resistant khal or two, and the entire Dothraki will be hers, as they have never been their former khals.

There's no such thing, as the most powerful khal. Same as there was no single ruler of wildlings beyond The Wall. Mance had to defeat all of them, to become their King. Same with Dothraki - to become ruler of all of them, he/she will need to defeat all of them. Of course GRRM can make Dany to perform that trick - she can use Drogon to burn all khals, and then all other Dothraki from their khalasars, maybe will bend the knee to Dany. Though currently not all khals are at Vaes Dothrak. Khal Pono has one of the biggest khalasars in the world (30 thousands), and now they are near Selhorys, not near Vaes Dothrak. And distance between Selhorys and Meereen is 1.500 miles, and to Vaes Dothrak is 2.500 miles. So at least for now, Pono's khalasar is out of Dany's reach. And who knows how many other khals are also away on their hunt.

I find your logic lacking.  Dany does not have to defeat all of the khals.  The khals are not stupid.  Burn a few and the rest will realize who the strongest is.  The wildlings are a weak people and Mance does not have the same power as Dany.  Mance only has his sword.  Dany has her dragons, her Unsullied, etc.  

Essos is not southern continent like Africa in our world. Water canals in Braavos are already covered in ice. And Meereen is located on the same line as Stormlands in Westeros, and there's already late autumn there during JonCon's last chapter. So winter will come to Essos too, and in Meereen will be falling snow. And there's already a shortage of food in Slaver's Bay, because of Dany's bad management of local economics, trade, and everything else. So she won't be able to just sit out in the east, until the winter will be over.

You're assuming too much.  Winter is unlikely to come to Slaver's Bay.  She can, actually, wait out the winter.  Wait for the fools in Westeros to get wighted and melt away when spring comes.  Thanks to Jon's mismanagement and incompetence at the Wall, the White Walkers will be able to cross with little resistance.  Cersei and Littlefinger do not stand a chance when winter comes.

 

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

She can, actually, wait out the winter.  Wait for the fools in Westeros to get wighted and melt away when spring comes.  Thanks to Jon's mismanagement and incompetence at the Wall, the White Walkers will be able to cross with little resistance.  Cersei and Littlefinger do not stand a chance when winter comes.

Oh that's perfect, it will go over very well.

westerosi - but my queen, how long have you had these dragons?

dany - oh, 3 yrs (or 5 or 8 or however long winter lasted)

westerosi - but why then didn't you come sooner to help your people? 

dany - nah, too risky, and I don't fancy the cold weather. 

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Oh that's perfect, it will go over very well.

westerosi - but my queen, how long have you had these dragons?

dany - oh, 3 yrs (or 5 or 8 or however long winter lasted)

westerosi - but why then didn't you come sooner to help your people? 

dany - nah, too risky, and I don't fancy the cold weather. 

 

Who would dare question her? Saving Westeroes from ice-demons would raise the people would have of her tothat of a messiah and she would be the most powerful force in the continent. 

[asoiaf_reader]

I don't understand what dany would gain by chilling out in meeren until winter ends. If the WW successfully wight all of westeros, i can see there being an eternal winter. So, what exactly does dany gain with this strategy. She either helps people to stop WW before westeros is completely gone or she never needs to come to westeros as there is nothing for here to do there

[300 H&H Magnum]

6 hours ago, asoiaf_reader said:

I don't understand what dany would gain by chilling out in meeren until winter ends. If the WW successfully wight all of westeros, i can see there being an eternal winter. So, what exactly does dany gain with this strategy. She either helps people to stop WW before westeros is completely gone or she never needs to come to westeros as there is nothing for here to do there

Westeros can come to Dany.  What's left of Westeros, that is.  

Look, there was a good reason why the Valyrians didn't go west beyond Dragonstone.  With all the bounty that the west had to offer, it must surely have been a very attractive prize to the insatiable appetites of the forty noble families who ruled Valyria.  I suspect the reason is the cyclical purge of the west.  The west is cleared of humans every few thousand years and the Valyrians knew this.  

It is beyond human power to change the climate.  That is too much for a low magic story.  The best humans can do is to migrate east and wait for spring.  

[cpg2016]

On 3/27/2018 at 6:24 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Correction: tried in Astaphor.

And it came closer to working Astapor than anywhere else!  Dany's failure in Astapor wasn't in eradicating the vile slaving system that existed, it was that she was so naive that she didn't leave the new government anything to protect it from vengeful slavers in other cities.

The contrast between Astapor and Yunkai almost has to be deliberate.  When Dany refuses to eliminate the Masters, not only do they immediately re-assert control, they also move to re-enslave other cities.  As long as the slaving elite has power, they cannot permit there to be non-slave societies in their orbit.  This is why culling them root and branch is the only viable and ethical option.  Dany knows she's leaving, sooner or later, and even the "later" is not late enough to purge the slaving ideal from the political and economic elites of Slavers Bay, which means her vision will inevitably be destroyed when she leaves.  Unless she removes those with the means and motives to re-enslave the populace.

On 3/27/2018 at 6:24 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It's a good idea if only the very elite of society is where this was coming from. Again, it's quite clear this "slavery is ok" line of thinking doesn't stop at a few rich snobs. It's an entire society's view. Nearly every freeman benifit could point to slavery being a benifit to them in some way

This is untrue.  This was an argument in the antebellum American South, too, and it wasn't true then either.  Yes, the freedmen can point to a higher social status, but they almost certainly aren't living any better than the slaves.

Also, the slave population is unbelievably high, enough so that "the entire society" that you speak of is a tiny fraction of the overall population.  Enough so that their opinion counted like anything towards a majority.  In Volantis, the free population is less than 17% (1/6 are freemen).  I would argue that it stands to reason that there is a HIGHER proportion of slaves in Slavers Bay, but lets say it is the same.  I am not arguing that the entire 17% be wiped out, but the major slaving families should.

On 3/27/2018 at 6:24 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Quite honestly, there are bound to be plenty of slaves who have a similar story to that of the crewmen of the ship that had carried Penny and Tyrion,who were enslaved. Likely their line of thought of slavery not being bad really isn't going to change.

Those slaves don't know better!  GRRM makes it clear that this is a pitiable, but detestable, philosophy.  Yes, Yezzan's "pets" like Sweets had it better than most field slaves - but they are still slaves, still entirely dependent on the whim of their master, and this is an inhumane way to live.

On 3/27/2018 at 6:24 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And who exactly is going to be responsible for managing a city would be vastly reduced. for one don't think the wards in Daenarys care so repugnant they deserve to be murdered.  They have skills. Just not in low-skills. Management of big architecture projects,managing a goverment, keeping a healthy economy, poetry, art, are things that would be in their forte.

First off, stop miming the pro-slavery arguments that the unquestionably immoral characters in these novels make.  The whole "some people need to wallow in the mud, so others can contemplate the stars" is complete bunk.  There is no reason the slaving elite of Slavers Bay will make better artists or philosophers than anyone else.

Secondly, we KNOW that the slaving families have no skills.  This is made explicit to us!  Hizdahr is completely incompetent as a ruler.  Throughout Dany's campaign through Slaver's Bay, the Masters are shown to be incompetent fools, whether it be Kraznys and his reliance on a slave translator to bargain properly (and shitty skills at noticing that Dany speaks High Valyrian), the Hero of Meereen is a total failure, and we are meant to be extremely critical of the Yunkish Masters, who have no freaking clue what they're doing.

Realistic or not, it happens to be the case that the various Masters have no skills or talents whatsoever.  They are worse at ruling than the slaves; it is made clear that the slaves do everything.

On 3/27/2018 at 6:24 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

They(although using cruel means), make advances in architecture, ships ect.  and through their efforts have made it so that the very least of their society generally are better than that of the peasants of the sunset kingdoms to say they have no skills is as ridiculous as saying the lords of the seven kingdoms have no skills. 

This is explicitly not true.  The various lords of the Seven Kingdoms are a martial aristocracy.  Some of them are adept at managing estates, but we consistently see that they employ others to do that for them.  Their skill is at arms.  A skill the Masters are shown, over and over, not to have.

We also know that quite the opposite of your argument, the Masters have not made any advances in ANY of those fields.  Their cities are literally crumbling to dust around them because they cannot be bothered to maintain them.  They make no "advanced" products.  The Free Cities are at a Renaissance level of technology, making advanced weapons and optics and processed goods.  Slavers Bay... each of those cities is a cash crop economy, in either bed slaves, fighting eunuch soldiers, or pit fighters.  They have no other exports, save maybe olives. 

And the very least of their society are 100% worse off than the peasants of the Seven Kingdoms.  You are saying that "society" is the free men.  Even IF we accept that it's okay to enslave huge swathes of people in order that the remainder may have a (slightly) elevated quality of life, we don't see this.  We have little to no information about the free men and women, at all.  All we know, or can reasonably assume, is that over 80% of Slavers Bay is in fetters.