Loras’s Burning – A Humbling Moment

[Ckram]

11 minutes ago, zandru said:

Missandei

Good point, though.

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

There have been a number of theories on this forum, suggesting that Loras may not have been as grievously injured as we are led to believe in A Feast for the Crows, and that it may be a ruse to trick Cersei.

I’m not going to debate the strengths and weaknesses of these theories (though people obviously can do in the thread if they wish), but rather I’m going to make a case for why narratively, it is important that Loras actually was injured as badly as Cersei is led to believe.

As we know from many characters’ perspectives, particularly Jaime’s, Loras’s main weakness is his arrogance, as Jaime perceptively observes, from being “too good too young”. Jaime draws parallels between his own and Loras’s experiences. Both are handsome, favourite sons from two of the richest and most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms. Both are exceptionally talented fighters at a very young age. Both, of course, enter the Kingsguard very young. Both are brothers of queens. It’s Jaime’s belief that, despite his arrogance, Loras could become a great knight, and do things “worthy of the White Book”. He clearly sees it as his duty to tutor Loras, and ensure he doesn’t go down the same path that Jaime himself did.

Jaime obviously took a bad turn along the way, in his own words: "That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but somewhere along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead." He doesn’t want the same to happen to Loras. We know that Jaime losing his hand, taking away one of his defining features, left him humbled, and reappraising what he had become.

I would argue that severe disfigurement, as a result of being seriously burned, could have a similar effect on Loras. He was waved off to Dragonstone by a crowd of swooning women. He had a relationship with one of the greatest and most handsome lords in the Seven Kingdoms. Everyone who sees him comments on his beauty. Like Jaime, along with his abilities, his good looks are defining for him, and are part of his image as a shining knight. Having that taken away would be humbling for him.

We saw Loras’s weaknesses on display in the manner that he captured Dragonstone. Redwyne was on the verge of winning a bloodless victory, and Loras, in his hot-headed arrogance, decided to take it by storm. Not only did his decision lead to the pointless slaughter of hundreds, it also cost him personally very dear.

I think the Loras who emerges from the flames, as it were, will be a very different man. He will be humbled by his experience, and be a better person and knight for it. We may witness him doing great things, for the sake of honour and of others, rather than of himself and his family. What these things will be, and what role he will play, I obviously have no idea (though speculation is of course welcome).  

We do know that GRRM has a soft-spot for misfits. The parallels with Jaime, who began the story as the arch typical white knight in appearance, while rotten underneath, and became something more only after losing his hand, suggests to me that Loras going from beautiful young man to disfigured by burning will be a seminal moment for him.

Nice. I have two comments... I don't agree that Loras's aggressive strategy was pointless since it freed up men of the Reach and the Redwyne fleet to confront the Ironmen. 

I also wonder whether, in addition to comparing Jaime to Loras, we should be contrasting Loras with Sandor. Both have been objects of Sansa's affection for very different reasons. And now, like Sandor, Loras appears to have been hideously scarred by fire. 

[Haus Berlin]

Thanks for bringing Loras into focus, dear @Shouldve Taken The Black. Due to a current lack of sure information about Loras' deeds in Dragonstone, I'll keep my answer short.

Yes, I do believe that Loras had lost his beauty, but I do not think that this burning made him humble.

As I see it, he sacrificed his looks to spead the news of Dragonstone's sacking whilst he is truly off to Highgarden, fighting against Euron's fleet. Loras is not above from tricking if it suits his aims - see his mare in heat or the idea of Renly's ghost admidst the Battle of Blackwater. Given how differently Cersei and Jaime think about Loras, I am possitive that this will come into play tragically. Jaime pretty much made Loras his sucessor and Tommen loves him dearly, whereas Cersei so much wishes Loras's death that she easily accepts it.
My feeling is that Loras will somehow impersonate Jaime to kidnap Tommen on Jaime's behest, but that this will lead to the ultimate expulsing of Lannisters in King's Landing. Cersei may be lured to Casterly Rock believing to find Tommen and Jaime there. But then the Tyrells may stretch their luck too much by marrying Margaery to Aegon and assassinating Myrcella just to be sure. Both twins err in their perception of the Tyrells, I'm sure.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nice.

Cheers.

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I don't agree that Loras's aggressive strategy was pointless since it freed up men of the Reach and the Redwyne fleet to confront the Ironmen.

That was his motivation, that and glory. Redwyne would have been just as keen to get back to the Reach and deal with the Iron Born I imagine, but would have been wise enough to recognise that it was best to keep a cool head, do the job properly, then move on to the next target. Loras was just too headstrong and eager to prove himself, in my opinion.

12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I also wonder whether, in addition to comparing Jaime to Loras, we should be contrasting Loras with Sandor. Both have been objects of Sansa's affection for very different reasons. And now, like Sandor, Loras appears to have been hideously scarred by fire. 

You know, that thought did occur to me, but as I hadn't thought through that parallel as much, I thought best to leave it for others to raise, rather than clutter up the OP. I think Loras going in Sandor's direction, becoming twisted by the fire, might be a possibility. But I think the parallels with Jaime up until now are stronger, and I think he's going to come out of this wiser and humbler, rather than twisted. 

Good point about Sansa though, I hadn't considered that.

8 minutes ago, Haus Berlin said:

As I see it, he sacrificed his looks to spead the news of Dragonstone's sacking whilst he is truly off to Highgarden, fighting against Euron's fleet.

Why would he need to do that secretly though? He was told he could do just that after Dragonstone was captured. And Margaery surely needs him in Kings Landing?

9 minutes ago, Haus Berlin said:

My feeling is that Loras will somehow impersonate Jaime to kidnap Tommen on Jaime's behest

If Jaime's in on it, surely Jaime could just do it? Why would he need a lookalike? And surely Tommen would know the difference between the two? As would the rest of the Kingsguard.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Perhaps, and Cersei is certainly easy to fool, particularly if you are telling her how one of her genius plans worked out beautifully. 

However, I have never really seen what benefit the Tyrells could gain in exchange for such a massive manipulation. It seems extraordinarily convoluted to no real purpose. 

Like in the days of Bloodraven, the crown is focused on the narrow sea and storm's end while the Iron born are reaving all over the reach. The queen will not let the armies march to the reach until DS is conquered. So they did, and possibly created a ruse as well  

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

and possibly created a ruse as well  

To what end did they create the ruse though?

[Tagganaro]

To the OP- Your point is well-taken.  Having said that, it appears to me as if the point, or one of the major points, of Cersei's chapters is to watch this delusional woefully incompetent ruler bungle EVERYTHING she puts her hands on.  I mean, seriously, having read through her chapters she is wrong about pretty much everything (i.e. the Kettleblacks, Aurane Waters, arming the faith militant, among others off the top of my head) and not one of her plans has been successful.  I would not at all be surprised if she was being fed a lie about Loras, but again, you do have a point about this seeming like a massive manipulation with no real payoff.  

[The Commentator]

9 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

Loras may not be as shiny on the inside as he portrays on the outside.  Unless I am mistaken, did he not cheat against Gregor?  

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, Tagganaro said:

To the OP- Your point is well-taken.  Having said that, it appears to me as if the point, or one of the major points, of Cersei's chapters is to watch this delusional woefully incompetent ruler bungle EVERYTHING she puts her hands on.  I mean, seriously, having read through her chapters she is wrong about pretty much everything (i.e. the Kettleblacks, Aurane Waters, arming the faith militant, among others off the top of my head) and not one of her plans has been successful.  I would not at all be surprised if she was being fed a lie about Loras, but again, you do have a point about this seeming like a massive manipulation with no real payoff.  

I think the very execution of the plan was a massive mistake. Loras is not a threat. The Tyrells, while rivals, are not people she should be scheming to destroy. Tywin recognised this, and worked to remain the senior partner in a mutually beneficial relationship, rather than working for their destruction. What Cersei fails to recognise is that even if she had gotten away with scheming to have both Loras and Margaery killed, the Tyrells would have broken with her. She was working for her own destruction anyway.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

Loras may not be as shiny on the inside as he portrays on the outside.  Unless I am mistaken, did he not cheat against Gregor? 

I never claimed he was the height of virtue, in fact the opposite. He's deeply flawed, but Jaime believes, and I agree, that he's not a lost cause quite yet.

And lets not get carried away. Cheating Gregor Clegane is hardly something to cry about.

[Lost Melnibonean]

@Rufus Snow you make a good point about keeping Loras on ice, so to speak. 

I don't think Loras is an important character in and of himself. I think the George has used Loras to develop other characters, first Sansa, and to a lesser extent, Sandor, and then, perhaps more importantly, Renly, Brienne, and Jaime, and now Margaery, and to a lesser extent, Cersei. 

But what role will he play, if any, as Winds gives way to Dream? The easiest solution would be to let him die. Imagine Margaery's perdicament should Mathis go over to Aegon, willingly or not, Randyll suffer defeat and death in battle near Storm's End, the Redwyne fleet be smashed by Euron, Garlan and Willas also suffer defeat. Cersei might have her thrown from a tower and claim she threw herself in grief, especially if Loras died. 

I don't believe Loras is Cersei's valonqar--that's Jaime. If Aegon sends Jaime to the wall, perhaps Jaime might convince Loras to come with him. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

To what end did they create the ruse though?

The ruse is to let cersei think that DS is taken and subdues so the redwyne fleet can sail to confront the reavers on the honeywine and the arbor  

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

The ruse is to let cersei think that DS is taken and subdues so the redwyne fleet can sail to confront the reavers on the honeywine and the arbor  

If Dragonstone were not taken, I doubt they could keep that under wraps for long. 

[bent branch]

1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

If Dragonstone were not taken, I doubt they could keep that under wraps for long. 

If there was a negotiated surrender, the castle could be taken without anyone being injured and the castle would still belong to the Iron Throne. I have been rethinking my ideas on this issue. However, I still think that if Loras was that badly injured Mace wouldn't have mentioned him so casually in the epilogue of ADWD.

[The Sunland Lord]

I always viewed it as a deliberate suicide mission from Loras. Didn't he volunteer to go there? 

"When the sun has set, no candle can ever replace it". He missed Renly, so he went off in a fight to die. 

His bravery was for the public (he used the Southern knightly "chivalry" as a front), and perhaps partially his hatred towards Stannis, but then again, the latter wasn't even there during the attack.

However, I like the OP. Nicely put. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, bent branch said:

If there was a negotiated surrender, the castle could be taken without anyone being injured and the castle would still belong to the Iron Throne.

But then that would be fine. Dragonstone's captured, and he can move onto the Reach. No need for the deception.

1 minute ago, bent branch said:

However, I still think that if Loras was that badly injured Mace wouldn't have mentioned him so casually in the epilogue of ADWD.

True. He may simply be recovering well though. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I always viewed it as a deliberate suicide mission from Loras. Didn't he volunteer to go there? 

"When the sun has set, no candle can ever replace it". He missed Renly, so he went off in a fight to die.

I don't get that impression. I think Loras is still motivated by a lust for glory. From what we see of him after Clash, he doesn't seem suicidal or depressed, though he clearly misses Renly.

19 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

However, I like the OP. Nicely put. 

Thanks

[Dorian Martell's son]

35 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

If Dragonstone were not taken, I doubt they could keep that under wraps for long. 

I should have qualified, the "Injury" if it is false would be a ruse to get loras and troops loyal to him on the Redwyne fleet to confront the Ironborn. Cersei feels the need to punish the Tyrells because she is insane. She seems to feel that if they are weakened, it will help her hold on to power  

[Lost Melnibonean]

27 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't get that impression. I think Loras is still motivated by a lust for glory. From what we see of him after Clash, he doesn't seem suicidal or depressed, though he clearly misses Renly.

Thanks

And he's obligated to protect his sister, so he life still has purpose. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I should have qualified, the "Injury" if it is false would be a ruse to get loras and troops loyal to him on the Redwyne fleet to confront the Ironborn.

I don't understand. Why does he need to pretend to be injured for that? If they were pretending to have captured Dragonstone, surely he could just send a note to Cersei saying "Dear Nutcase. Captured Dragonstone for you. Now going to fight the Ironborn as we agreed. Thanks. Bye." 

20 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Cersei feels the need to punish the Tyrells because she is insane. She seems to feel that if they are weakened, it will help her hold on to power 

Absolutely.