Loras’s Burning – A Humbling Moment

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

There have been a number of theories on this forum, suggesting that Loras may not have been as grievously injured as we are led to believe in A Feast for the Crows, and that it may be a ruse to trick Cersei.

I’m not going to debate the strengths and weaknesses of these theories (though people obviously can do in the thread if they wish), but rather I’m going to make a case for why narratively, it is important that Loras actually was injured as badly as Cersei is led to believe.

As we know from many characters’ perspectives, particularly Jaime’s, Loras’s main weakness is his arrogance, as Jaime perceptively observes, from being “too good too young”. Jaime draws parallels between his own and Loras’s experiences. Both are handsome, favourite sons from two of the richest and most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms. Both are exceptionally talented fighters at a very young age. Both, of course, enter the Kingsguard very young. Both are brothers of queens. It’s Jaime’s belief that, despite his arrogance, Loras could become a great knight, and do things “worthy of the White Book”. He clearly sees it as his duty to tutor Loras, and ensure he doesn’t go down the same path that Jaime himself did.

Jaime obviously took a bad turn along the way, in his own words: "That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but somewhere along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead." He doesn’t want the same to happen to Loras. We know that Jaime losing his hand, taking away one of his defining features, left him humbled, and reappraising what he had become.

I would argue that severe disfigurement, as a result of being seriously burned, could have a similar effect on Loras. He was waved off to Dragonstone by a crowd of swooning women. He had a relationship with one of the greatest and most handsome lords in the Seven Kingdoms. Everyone who sees him comments on his beauty. Like Jaime, along with his abilities, his good looks are defining for him, and are part of his image as a shining knight. Having that taken away would be humbling for him.

We saw Loras’s weaknesses on display in the manner that he captured Dragonstone. Redwyne was on the verge of winning a bloodless victory, and Loras, in his hot-headed arrogance, decided to take it by storm. Not only did his decision lead to the pointless slaughter of hundreds, it also cost him personally very dear.

I think the Loras who emerges from the flames, as it were, will be a very different man. He will be humbled by his experience, and be a better person and knight for it. We may witness him doing great things, for the sake of honour and of others, rather than of himself and his family. What these things will be, and what role he will play, I obviously have no idea (though speculation is of course welcome).  

We do know that GRRM has a soft-spot for misfits. The parallels with Jaime, who began the story as the arch typical white knight in appearance, while rotten underneath, and became something more only after losing his hand, suggests to me that Loras going from beautiful young man to disfigured by burning will be a seminal moment for him.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

I got the feeling that if Loras is as injured as reported to Cersei, he's not long for this world. So either he's not injured, so no turning point, or he's dead, so no turning point.

Still, he could pull through, I suppose. Should he live (and should he have been injured), I concur that it could well be a defining moment for him. Force him to rethink his life. Though I feel that Loras is a rash, hot-headed young man, and his disfiguring injury (and the resulting reaction he gets from his adoring fans) may well make him double down on his faults, on the hatred that he feels at the world, post Renly. Could go either way, really, but I think it takes a special sort of person to better themselves after a harrowing moment, and I'm not so sure that Loras is that kind of person.

But who knows? I might be in for a surprise.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

4 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Still, he could pull through, I suppose.

I think that's most likely. If GRRM wanted him dead, he would be dead already. There's no need (that I can see) to give him a protracted death. 

5 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Though I feel that Loras is a rash, hot-headed young man, and his disfiguring injury (and the resulting reaction he gets from his adoring fans) may well make him double down on his faults, on the hatred that he feels at the world, post Renly.

That is a possibility. As well as parallels with Jaime, there is one with the Hound, whose burning and disfigurement made bitter and twisted. 

6 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I think it takes a special sort of person to better themselves after a harrowing moment, and I'm not so sure that Loras is that kind of person.

Jaime sees something in him. The whole point of these sorts of events in life is that they can reveal who you really are. Up until the burning, Loras was still in all the ways that matter just a boy.  

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think that's most likely. If GRRM wanted him dead, he would be dead already. There's no need (that I can see) to give him a protracted death. 

There are plenty of potential reasons. To keep Cersei on edge about his possible recovery, to have Margaery unfocused with worry, etc. Also, why not? Sometimes people don't die so gracefully. Sometimes death is drawn out. Could be the case here. It could be as simple as GRRM deciding that Loras was to die in this manner, and he flipped a coin to decide whether or not it'd be quick.

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That is a possibility. As well as parallels with Jaime, there is one with the Hound, whose burning and disfigurement made bitter and twisted.

I was thinking about Loras's similarities to Jaime after my last post, and got to thinking that perhaps this could be the moment when Loras becomes more like Jaime was before losing his hand, but after being the Kingslayer. Bitter and dejected, seeing how quickly the people will turn on you, etc. Jaime's reputation was forever tainted by killing Aerys, and Loras's could be tainted by his disfiguring injury. As you've stated in your OP, Loras's beauty is a defining feature, and with the injury, he would obviously be seen differently. To compare it to this thought from Jon:

They called him the Lion of Lannister to his face and whispered "Kingslayer" behind his back.

They'd call Loras a brave knight to his face, and whisper about his horrific scars behind his back. Might set them to a similar path.

Though, of course, unlike in Jaime's case, Loras is going to have his reputation ruined (Kingslayer, burn scars) at the same time as losing something that defines him (hand, beauty). Not to mention that the love of his life (at least, from his perspective. The young are always so certain about these things) died quite recently. Jaime's awful experiences were spread over a decade or so, whereas Loras has had a long streak of awful experiences, starting from Renly's death. So much loss is such a short span... should he recover, I don't think he'd deal with it by becoming a better person, I really don't.

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jaime sees something in him. The whole point of these sorts of events in life is that they can reveal who you really are. Up until the burning, Loras was still in all the ways that matter just a boy. 

I think Jaime is really just seeing himself, but Loras is a very different person. But yes, should he live, we'll see what kind of a person Loras Tyrell really is.

[zandru]

It sure seems as if a lot of the main characters are getting hideously disfigured, doesn't it? Loras's burns (if true). Brienne's face being half-eaten by Biter. Tyrion losing half his nose. Although Jaime is still the beautiful golden knight, without his sword hand he's rejected brutally by the only woman he's ever loved (cue Brienne, stage left!) Jon Snow (if still alive) has been mauled about the face by that eagle. What's happened to Theon Greyjoy is almost too painful to describe and he's all but unrecognizeable anymore. Even lovely Cersei is getting fat.

Outside of leveling the playing field for Sandor Clegane (best looking man still standing!), this loss of youthful physical beauty seems to be a major way that George RR is building our sympathy for these characters. The changes to their character arcs are just another thing.

As noted, maybe Loras will mature suddenly to be The Great White Knight and Defender of the Weak and Justice. Or he may become angry and embittered. Not that he ever cared what the beautiful ladies thought of him, but he's now rejected by the handsome young men, too. Plus, he's heard everyone talking, likely behind his back when he's laying in bed, half-conscious, about his stupid stunt in trying to take Dragonstone by force and its cost, not just to Loras. People are more inclined to become angry when told they were idiots than to learn by the experience. And burns are extremely painful, about the worst pain there is, and take a long, long time to heal. Loras will have a lot to stew over.

My bet is that Loras's arc takes a turn towards the dark side. He'll continue as a great swordsman, probably driven to improve even more. But he'll want revenge. Maybe on Stannis, who took Renly from him, and was indirectly responsible for his maiming. Maybe against the Lannisters, aka Cersei, who sent the Tyrells on this expedition, and who engineered the bad situation with the Sept that his sister is stuck in. Probably also including that so-full-of-himself Ser Jaime, who insists on being Lord Commander even though he can barely hold a sword.

When Loras comes out of convalescence, watch out.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Jaime sees something in him.

I assumed what Jaime saw was technical skill, not greatness of character.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

There are plenty of potential reasons. To keep Cersei on edge about his possible recovery, to have Margaery unfocused with worry, etc. Also, why not? Sometimes people don't die so gracefully. Sometimes death is drawn out. Could be the case here. It could be as simple as GRRM deciding that Loras was to die in this manner, and he flipped a coin to decide whether or not it'd be quick.

Fair points. I suppose I'm just convinced that Loras will survive. You're quite right though, if GRRM wants him to have a long drawn out death then that's what he gets.

Cersei and Margaery are both preoccupied with other worries for the nonce though, I don't think Loras's suffering is needed to add tension.

6 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I was thinking about Loras's similarities to Jaime after my last post, and got to thinking that perhaps this could be the moment when Loras becomes more like Jaime was before losing his hand, but after being the Kingslayer. Bitter and dejected, seeing how quickly the people will turn on you, etc. Jaime's reputation was forever tainted by killing Aerys, and Loras's could be tainted by his disfiguring injury. As you've stated in your OP, Loras's beauty is a defining feature, and with the injury, he would obviously be seen differently.

It could go that way, however the usual theme is for characters to grow as a result of these sorts of things, rather than get worse. There are exceptions, I know.

Irrespective, it's unlikely to be an uninterrupted or straightforward change. There could be a long drawn out struggle for Loras before he decides on a particular direction. The "right" course of action won't always be clear or simple either. 

9 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I think Jaime is really just seeing himself, but Loras is a very different person.

The qualities Jaime sees are the ones he has, or had when he was younger. I think much of his relationship with Loras is him wishing someone had seen those qualities in him and nurtured them. We see glimpses of how Rhaegar, the White Bull and Arthur Dayne may have performed that function, but after they died when he was sixteen he was left alone to be corrupted. 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, zandru said:

Outside of leveling the playing field for Sandor Clegane (best looking man still standing!), this loss of youthful physical beauty seems to be a major way that George RR is building our sympathy for these characters. The changes to their character arcs are just another thing.

I think that's a key point. We have a special place in our hearts for dwarves and bastards and broken things. 

17 minutes ago, zandru said:

Not that he ever cared what the beautiful ladies thought of him

Bah, being fawned over is great even if you're not sexually interested in who is doing it. 

17 minutes ago, zandru said:

My bet is that Loras's arc takes a turn towards the dark side. He'll continue as a great swordsman, probably driven to improve even more. But he'll want revenge. Maybe on Stannis, who took Renly from him, and was indirectly responsible for his maiming. Maybe against the Lannisters, aka Cersei, who sent the Tyrells on this expedition, and who engineered the bad situation with the Sept that his sister is stuck in. Probably also including that so-full-of-himself Ser Jaime, who insists on being Lord Commander even though he can barely hold a sword.

I would actually enjoy a vengeful Loras emerging. It's certainly a possibility, but I think the parallels with Jaime are what keeps me convinced he'll go the other way. If Jaime returns from his sojourn in the Riverlands, he may actually be key in ensuring that happens. 

14 minutes ago, zandru said:

I assumed what Jaime saw was technical skill, not greatness of character

Not greatness of character, but potential. When he asks Loras about Renly, he notices that Loras is not false or corrupted (yet). That's why he sees himself in Loras. Jaime was once just the same - all arrogance, good looks and skill, but not corrupted until later. 

[Kandrax]

There is a theory that he faked his injury and will kill Tommen to avenge Margery.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

There is a theory that he faked his injury and will kill Tommen to avenge Margery.

Yeah, I've seen various theories about how the injury is either faked or exaggerated, as part of a Tyrell plot or something else. I don't really buy any of them. These theories often sketch out a brilliant convoluted plot, but neglect, in my opinion, much more interesting character developments that would occur if he were actually injured and disfigured. 

[Rufus Snow]

Hmmm, I'm about 51:49 in favour of Loras going to the dark side after this. I don't discount the possibility that it could be the making of the man, but I also tend to see Loras in similar terms to Robert's description of Ned: "You were never the boy you were". Loras has much to be bitter about, so the Flower Knight becoming the Flower of Night has a slight edge for me.

I prefer to look at these things from an in-universe perspective, but to step back and look at it in terms of plotlines for once, I think Loras has sustained just enough injury to keep him well out of the way during the framing of Margaery, but not so much as to prevent him returning later to wreak a terrible vengeance on Cersei. And, yes, Cersei in particular, because the whole sending Loras to Dragonstone thing was another of Cersei's little follies whereby the she thinks she's being all Tywinesque whilst sowing seeds of her own destruction. Generally, I get the impression, the more pleased Cersei is with herself, the more damage she is doing to her own cause - so on these grounds I'm expecting Loras to come back all embittered.

Oh, and okay, be prepared to shoot me down here, cos this just popped into my head: could Loras be the valonqar? If Margaery is the 'another' younger and more beautiful yadda yadda, Loras although not Marge's little brother, he is the youngest of the Tyrell brothers....

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, Rufus Snow said:

the Flower Knight becoming the Flower of Night has a slight edge for me.

Be very proud of that turn of phrase. 

2 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

I think Loras has sustained just enough injury to keep him well out of the way during the framing of Margaery, but not so much as to prevent him returning later to wreak a terrible vengeance on Cersei.

That's a good point. He's out of action for the Margaery business, which is important narratively, but means he can return to do whatever GRRM wants him for later on. 

3 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

could Loras be the valonqar? If Margaery is the 'another' younger and more beautiful yadda yadda, Loras although not Marge's little brother, he is the youngest of the Tyrell brothers....

I still think, as I did when I first read AFFC many moons ago, that Jaime is the valonqar. But yes, I suppose he could be. 

[Rufus Snow]

21 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I still think, as I did when I first read AFFC many moons ago, that Jaime is the valonqar. But yes, I suppose he could be. 

Yeah, I had been going that way too, but with Jaime now only having the one hand, some doubt has since crept in, but time will tell....

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Rufus Snow said:

eturning later to wreak a terrible vengeance on Cersei.

Loras may further learn that Cersei orchestrated the whole framing of Margaery plot. Loras as valonquar sounds pretty good - but then, you have to remember that people all over Westeros are getting in line to off her. Plus, more than half of everybody is a "little sibling" to someone.

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

There have been a number of theories on this forum, suggesting that Loras may not have been as grievously injured as we are led to believe in A Feast for the Crows, and that it may be a ruse to trick Cersei.

I’m not going to debate the strengths and weaknesses of these theories (though people obviously can do in the thread if they wish), but rather I’m going to make a case for why narratively, it is important that Loras actually was injured as badly as Cersei is led to believe.

As we know from many characters’ perspectives, particularly Jaime’s, Loras’s main weakness is his arrogance, as Jaime perceptively observes, from being “too good too young”. Jaime draws parallels between his own and Loras’s experiences. Both are handsome, favourite sons from two of the richest and most powerful houses in the Seven Kingdoms. Both are exceptionally talented fighters at a very young age. Both, of course, enter the Kingsguard very young. Both are brothers of queens. It’s Jaime’s belief that, despite his arrogance, Loras could become a great knight, and do things “worthy of the White Book”. He clearly sees it as his duty to tutor Loras, and ensure he doesn’t go down the same path that Jaime himself did.

Jaime obviously took a bad turn along the way, in his own words: "That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but somewhere along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead." He doesn’t want the same to happen to Loras. We know that Jaime losing his hand, taking away one of his defining features, left him humbled, and reappraising what he had become.

I would argue that severe disfigurement, as a result of being seriously burned, could have a similar effect on Loras. He was waved off to Dragonstone by a crowd of swooning women. He had a relationship with one of the greatest and most handsome lords in the Seven Kingdoms. Everyone who sees him comments on his beauty. Like Jaime, along with his abilities, his good looks are defining for him, and are part of his image as a shining knight. Having that taken away would be humbling for him.

We saw Loras’s weaknesses on display in the manner that he captured Dragonstone. Redwyne was on the verge of winning a bloodless victory, and Loras, in his hot-headed arrogance, decided to take it by storm. Not only did his decision lead to the pointless slaughter of hundreds, it also cost him personally very dear.

I think the Loras who emerges from the flames, as it were, will be a very different man. He will be humbled by his experience, and be a better person and knight for it. We may witness him doing great things, for the sake of honour and of others, rather than of himself and his family. What these things will be, and what role he will play, I obviously have no idea (though speculation is of course welcome).  

We do know that GRRM has a soft-spot for misfits. The parallels with Jaime, who began the story as the arch typical white knight in appearance, while rotten underneath, and became something more only after losing his hand, suggests to me that Loras going from beautiful young man to disfigured by burning will be a seminal moment for him.

Cersei has had people attempt, successfully or not, to pull the wool over her eyes to curry favor or manipulate. Groat's head, the death of Davos etc so anything involving Loras needs to be taken with a grain of salt 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

19 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Cersei has had people attempt, successfully or not, to pull the wool over her eyes to curry favor or manipulate. Groat's head, the death of Davos etc so anything involving Loras needs to be taken with a grain of salt

Perhaps, and Cersei is certainly easy to fool, particularly if you are telling her how one of her genius plans worked out beautifully. 

However, I have never really seen what benefit the Tyrells could gain in exchange for such a massive manipulation. It seems extraordinarily convoluted to no real purpose. 

[Nowy Tends]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Oh, and okay, be prepared to shoot me down here, cos this just popped into my head: could Loras be the valonqar? If Margaery is the 'another' younger and more beautiful yadda yadda, Loras although not Marge's little brother, he is the youngest of the Tyrell brothers....

I like the idea…

[Ckram]

Loras and Quentyn have this "burned while trying to take a dragon(stone)" thing in common.

Maybe Daenerys will meet the dying (or just deformed) Loras in Dragonstone and something about his condition ressembles that of Quentyn could be a turning point for her.

Just spitballing.

[zandru]

21 minutes ago, Ckram said:

something about his ressemblance with Quentyn could be a turning point for her.

Hardly - at least physically, Loras and Quentyn are day and night. Also, Daenerys missed "the burning of the prince from Dorne" episode, so it won't have the impact upon her emotionally that it did on, say, Missandei.

[Ckram]

10 minutes ago, zandru said:

at least physically

Edited just before you answered.