NFL 2018 Draft: On The One Hand...

[Bronn Stone]

Cowboys did the necessary and Let Dez go.  The gap between Dez's value and Dez's belief as to his value is too great.  He's in for a humbling experience, I think.  Or someone making a serious error.

Then again, this is pretty close to where Moss was when NE took a shot on him.

[Maithanet]

2 minutes ago, briantw said:

I was already on the fence after they fired Sashi but kept Hue Jackson.  If they pick Josh Allen number one, I just don't know if I can do it any more.  

I also haven't lived in Ohio for almost seven years now, so I think I could justifiably transition to a Panthers allegiance and not seem like a dick for it if needed.

Yeah, I feel you 100%.  It is just so hard to continue to invest emotional energy in a team that demonstrably does not deserve it.  

I still live in the DC area, but honestly I just don't really care about my "true fan" bonafides much anymore.  Anyone who says I'm a bandwagoner for giving up on this shitshow is just trying to justify their own abusive relationship with the Redskins. 

[briantw]

Just now, Bronn Stone said:

Cowboys did the necessary and Let Dez go.  The gap between Dez's value and Dez's belief as to his value is too great.  He's in for a humbling experience, I think.  Or someone making a serious error.

Then again, this is pretty close to where Moss was when NE took a shot on him.

I think Dez still has the talent, but he just hasn't been able to stay healthy.  I also think that we can probably safely infer at this point that Dak Prescott isn't quite as good as Zeke has made him look, which has probably hurt Dez's value a bit as well.

[grozeng]

I kind of was half-joking about the Jets.  Ryan Fitzpatrick and Brandon Marshall really worked well.  I think Josh McCown to Dez would be awesome

 

[Trebla]

44 minutes ago, Bronn Stone said:

Then again, this is pretty close to where Moss was when NE took a shot on him.

I think the difference here is that Moss was said to have had 4.3 speed when the Pats got him while Dez has suffered a series of leg injuries since 2015 and now lacks a burst. I spent the '17 season wondering if his production drop was because of Dak Prescott or his own doing. The consensus from scouts and analysts was that it was Dez, he could no longer beat even single coverage let alone the double coverage he used to face and often win against. Mid-season Dallas' offense tanked and it wasn't just because of no Zeke. Defenses started to double cover Cole Beasley on third down instead of Dez and that became a very effective in stopping drives. Dez became angrier and angrier that he wasn't getting the ball despite being covered which culminated in the Seattle tantrum. When he finally did catch a pass in that game he promptly fumbled it. 

This was a tough decision but one I support. His play and his attitude were no longer worth his salary. 

[Bronn Stone]

Apparently the CBA requires testing for suck.

Four Game Butt Fumble

[briantw]

5 hours ago, Maithanet said:

It is right to say that the Browns don't really have anything to gain by keeping the #1 pick a secret.  If anything, they could give their future franchise guy a small boost that they have confidence in him. 

I don't know that that's entirely true.  Right now, we assume the Browns and Jets are going QB, but the Giants could very well take a non-QB at number two.  Chubb seems at least somewhat likely there, for example, and I don't think you can really rule out Barkley or Nelson either.  If the Browns convince the media they're taking a guy they're not, that might make the value of the number two pick rise, which increases the chances the Giants may deal it to a team targeting a QB, which means that the Browns will have first choice of non-QB at four.  If they really want Chubb and think the Giants are taking him, the Giants dealing that pick is a win for the Browns.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, briantw said:

If the Browns were sold on "the Process," they wouldn't have fired their GM in favor of the old school coach who went 1-31.  I think the team was originally sold on a few seasons of losing to stockpile assets and talent, and it was working.  However, Hue Jackson was such a bad coach that he managed to get worse in year two despite a hell of a lot more talent on the team, and then he somehow managed to convince the ownership that it wasn't his fault even though he's clearly a fucking dolt.

The thing that has been holding the Browns back, as you said, is the constant rebuilding.  And it comes largely down to the way they have basically fired their front office every two years, which has never allowed anyone to actually build a foundation.  Guys keep getting fired halfway into the rebuild, and then inevitably the new front office comes in, jettisons the guys they don't like, brings in new guys they do, and the whole thing starts over again.  You just can't build anything if you only get two years, especially when the next guy comes in and tears it all down and tries to rebuild again his way.

Now, granted, they've also failed by bungling a ton of drafts (the last two years were pretty good, making it all the more baffling why they'd fire that particular GM when he had already done better than basically any since the team returned to Cleveland).  But I think the main problem is the constant front office overhaul.  This always leads to new coaches and new systems, which necessitates different players because the Browns can never seem to hire a fucking coach who adjusts system to personnel instead of forcing personnel to adapt to system.  This leads to roster turnover, which means getting rid of the few guys the previous regime drafted that actually panned out.  And on and on it has went for twenty goddamn years.

You also just can't sell me on keeping Hue Jackson after he went 1-31.  I can forgive 1-15 in year one, because Sashi inherited an absolutely godawful NFL team, and a few of their good players wanted out because of how the previous regime had treated them, or because they just wanted to go somewhere else and were using the Browns as leverage to make more money.  However, I can't forgive the team actually getting worse in year two despite a significant influx of talent and a fairly strong draft.  They should have easily won three to four games last year, and were competitive in what felt like more games than they weren't.  When you get blown out all the time, it usually comes down to talent.  That was the Browns two years ago.  When you lose a lot of close games, it usually comes down to coaching.  That was the Browns last year.  And yet they fire the GM and keep the shit coach who doesn't appear to know his ass from a hole in the ground, and perhaps more importantly is constantly throwing everyone else under the bus to cover for his own ineptitude.  I can't deal with a coach who never accepts responsibility for himself, and Hue Jackson is a man who has never accepted even a lick of accountability for his poor coaching.  It was everyone's fault except his, and I honestly think there were times last year when he was intentionally throwing games to try to get his GM fired because they disagreed about, as you've said, "the Process."

tl;dr If the Browns ever want to become even a decent team, they're going to need to keep a front office around for more than two years.  Because the constant turnover has just fucked the team over and over again.  Many teams have bad front offices that still manage to string together good seasons, and I have no doubt that, had the Browns kept a few of their previous regimes, they probably would have ended up a  halfway decent team just by sheer luck.  But you can't keep tearing everything down to the studs and expect to finish building anything.

Thanks! I think I agree with pretty much everything here. The one caveat is that I can understand wanting a new GM, but you can't do that, force a bad coach on him and then have a split room on who to take at number 1. Jackson will likely get canned at the end of the year, and by doing it the way they did, they are risking ruining a guy who should be the face of the franchise for the next decade. 

[briantw]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Thanks! I think I agree with pretty much everything here. The one caveat is that I can understand wanting a new GM, but you can't do that, force a bad coach on him and then have a split room on who to take at number 1. Jackson will likely get canned at the end of the year, and by doing it the way they did, they are risking ruining a guy who should be the face of the franchise for the next decade. 

Agreed.  I think they either had to fire GM and coaching staff (or at least let Dorsey make the call on the coaching staff) or keep the GM and fire the coach.  Firing the GM and keeping the coach was a classic idiotic Browns move.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Trebla said:

I think the difference here is that Moss was said to have had 4.3 speed when the Pats got him while Dez has suffered a series of leg injuries since 2015 and now lacks a burst. I spent the '17 season wondering if his production drop was because of Dak Prescott or his own doing. The consensus from scouts and analysts was that it was Dez, he could no longer beat even single coverage let alone the double coverage he used to face and often win against. Mid-season Dallas' offense tanked and it wasn't just because of no Zeke. Defenses started to double cover Cole Beasley on third down instead of Dez and that became a very effective in stopping drives. Dez became angrier and angrier that he wasn't getting the ball despite being covered which culminated in the Seattle tantrum. When he finally did catch a pass in that game he promptly fumbled it. 

This was a tough decision but one I support. His play and his attitude were no longer worth his salary. 

It's both. Dez has lost a step or two, and he was never a true burner before hand. I watched a few Cowboys games and he never got separation. But Dak is partially to blame too. He's incredibly risk averse. Dez can probably still win those one on one jump ball situations most of the time, but Dak is never going to make that throw.

I wonder if they tried shopping him? I've got to belief a team would have parted with a day three pick for him if nothing else.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, briantw said:

I don't know that that's entirely true.  Right now, we assume the Browns and Jets are going QB, but the Giants could very well take a non-QB at number two.  Chubb seems at least somewhat likely there, for example, and I don't think you can really rule out Barkley or Nelson either.  If the Browns convince the media they're taking a guy they're not, that might make the value of the number two pick rise, which increases the chances the Giants may deal it to a team targeting a QB, which means that the Browns will have first choice of non-QB at four.  If they really want Chubb and think the Giants are taking him, the Giants dealing that pick is a win for the Browns.

I am 95% sure the Giants will trade out. There are some quality players to take at 2, but they'd all be reaches. Nelson is suppose to be a can't miss G, but can you draft that high at that position? Same goes with Barkley, and the Giants have no O-line, so grabbing a RB that high in a deep RB class makes no sense. Chubb is fine, but it feels like he's ranked that high because he's the best edge rusher, and that means he has to be ranked high (like a QB) even though he's not deserving. If the Giants keep the pick, I'd bet they grab a QB. Eli is washed and they have a chance to draft his heir apparent, which if they were smart, would be Rosen. A QB will go 1-2-3 this year, which means the Browns get a shot at the best QB and the best skill guy. Personally I'd draft Rosen or Baker (i doubt they take either) and then grab Nelson at 4. They already have their EDGE guy and with those three second rounders, you can grab a RB, a DB and a lineman (doesn't matter if its O or D). That would be a pretty good haul, all in all.  

[Trebla]

27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's both. Dez has lost a step or two, and he was never a true burner before hand. I watched a few Cowboys games and he never got separation. But Dak is partially to blame too. He's incredibly risk averse. Dez can probably still win those one on one jump ball situations most of the time, but Dak is never going to make that throw.

I wonder if they tried shopping him? I've got to belief a team would have parted with a day three pick for him if nothing else.

That's true on the jump balls, that was the one thing Dez could still do. Romo was great at them but Dak just couldn't connect as often.

As for a trade, I don't think any team was willing to take on his contract, even for a late round pick

[Jace, Extat]

He also isn't an explosive athlete anymore (I.E. he doesn't jump with violence) and his hands have been garbage since they took away his catch against the Packers.

[mcbigski]

I'm almost tempted to put on that Sanchez jersey thats been in my trunk since I lost that bet.  I just want to get the butt fumble reenactment over but Ross hasnt told me where to do it yet.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Bronn Stone said:

Apparently the CBA requires testing for suck.

Four Game Butt Fumble

He's 31?!?!?!?!? Id this what aging feels like?????

11 minutes ago, Trebla said:

That's true on the jump balls, that was the one thing Dez could still do. Romo was great at them but Dak just couldn't connect as often.

As for a trade, I don't think any team was willing to take on his contract, even for a late round pick

How many years did he have left on it, because I thought it was just one? A 6th rounder is worth a one year rental for a team like, the Rams. 

[Jace, Extat]

7 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

He's 31?!?!?!?!? Id this what aging feels like?????

How many years did he have left on it, because I thought it was just one? A 6th rounder is worth a one year rental for a team like, the Rams. 

He was signed through 2020 and his deal paid him 16 million, which is top flight WR money and he's not even a WR1

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Triskele said:

Man, Allen's highlights really are something though.  I can see the temptation.  But word is that he'd have quite the lowlight tape to go with it.

Problem is the highlights are about ten percent of his plays, whereas the lowlights are more like fifty.

[Jace, Extat]

6 minutes ago, briantw said:

Problem is the highlights are about ten percent of his plays, whereas the lowlights are more like fifty.

I read that somewhere...

What are you doing reading my reading!?! GET YOUR OWN READING!!!!!!    

[DanteGabriel]

17 hours ago, Pony Queen Jace said:

Ok, that makes it clear. It's not fun anymore if fans are giving up out of sustained emotional trauma. I hope they get the right guy.

Have we had the "traumatized fanbase ranking" discussion recently? Because Cleveland at least has seen a title recently, and the Indians are at least fun and competitive, while DC fans get epic collapses and the Snyder era of embarrassment, which included the mistreatment of a franchise icon and the last coach to win a title there.

 

17 hours ago, Bronn Stone said:

Cowboys did the necessary and Let Dez go.  The gap between Dez's value and Dez's belief as to his value is too great.  He's in for a humbling experience, I think.  Or someone making a serious error.

Then again, this is pretty close to where Moss was when NE took a shot on him.

Speaking to my previous point... Dez said something on his way out about wanting to play the Cowboys twice a year. I don't think Philly needs him, and damn sure the Giants aren't looking to add another problem receiver, so... Washington?

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

Speaking to my previous point... Dez said something on his way out about wanting to play the Cowboys twice a year. I don't think Philly needs him, and damn sure the Giants aren't looking to add another problem receiver, so... Washington?

Washington, no... they have no history of taking over priced under performing free agent attitudes to spite other teams.