NFL 2018 Draft: On The One Hand...

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

2 hours ago, briantw said:

I think it could work for a team like the Browns, simply because they have so much cap space and they're several years away from having to pay a lot of their young talent.  I wouldn't give up the number four pick for Beckham, though.  I'd think something like Corey Coleman and one of their top three second rounders.  I think you look at what Brandon Marshall got dealt for back in the day and that's your market.  Both players had maturity and off field issues that hurt their value despite being elite level talents.

I don't think it will happen, but the Browns are one of the few teams in a cap situation where they could pull it out without hamstringing their cap for the next three years.

Good god man. Odell to the Browns? Are you trying to end Sticky Fingers Gordon's career? You can't have him teamed up with a reckless young man who was caught on video holding a "brown cigarette" and in the presence of a "white powdery substance" and a "dough like substance with possible cheese and sauce like substances" on top of it.

[Bronn Stone]

If the rumors are even close to true, the Giants are asking for a price that dramatically exceeds Beckham's value.  Two #1s are the price for a generally healthy player and team leader with Beckham's talent.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

30 minutes ago, Bronn Stone said:

If the rumors are even close to true, the Giants are asking for a price that dramatically exceeds Beckham's value.  Two #1s are the price for a generally healthy player and team leader with Beckham's talent.

Didn't the Pats get Moss, who would be considered the best WR ever if not for Rice's longevity, for like a fourth round pick? OBJ still isn't qualified to hold Moss' jock strap. No way he's worth two firsts, especially without him guaranteeing to sign a long term deal the moment he steps off the plane. 

[l2 0 5 5]

1 hour ago, Bronn Stone said:

If the rumors are even close to true, the Giants are asking for a price that dramatically exceeds Beckham's value.  Two #1s are the price for a generally healthy player and team leader with Beckham's talent.

Sounds like negotiating 101. Why would the Giants start off somewhere reasonable? I actually don't think it's too far off his value. I don't think it'll happen. Just trying to scare some sense into him and what better way to do that then threaten to send him to the Browns.

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Didn't the Pats get Moss, who would be considered the best WR ever if not for Rice's longevity, for like a fourth round pick? OBJ still isn't qualified to hold Moss' jock strap. No way he's worth two firsts, especially without him guaranteeing to sign a long term deal the moment he steps off the plane. 

Uh....what? Rice was better in every way. Career, peak, per, etc. Just on another level. But let’s just look at peak, which most addresses the idea of it just being about longevity. 

Moss had one season of over 100 catches; Rice had 4. Moss never lead the league in receptions. Rice lead the league 6 times. Ross never lead the league in yards/g, Rice lead the league 6 times. Rice was 1st team All-Pro 10 times. Moss was 1st team All-Pro 4 times. And even in Moss’s claim to fame, touchdowns, Rice lead the league more often. 

Here’s each of their top 5s: 

Yards:

Moss              Rice

1) 1632           1848

2) 1493            1570

3) 1437            1503

4) 1413           1502

5) 1347           1499

Catches:

Moss               Rice

111                  122

106                   112

98                     108

83                      100

82                       98 

Now, back to touchdowns. Moss’s single season high is 23, which IS 1 more than Rice’s 1987 top mark. So, that one to Randy? Nope...Moss got 23 in 16 games. Rice got 22 touchdowns in 12 games. Over 16 games that projects to 30 td’s. And it wasn’t in any way down to him, he didn’t lose 4 games to injury, but to a player’s strike. With that his 5 top year totals come out to 92, or 18.4 average td/year. Moss’s 5 peak years totalled is 85 Td’s, or 17.0 TDS/year.

People are trying to turn Rice into like Art Monk or w/e Old Man River, but he’s better than everyone else in every way at everything. Best career, best peak, best ~ years, single game, etc. He’s the closest thing football has to a Wayne Gretzky, numbers wise. And that’s not even counting playoffs, where he’s a monster, better across the board in every stat compared with the regular season. And it’s all in spite of Moss playing much more of his career in the passer-friendly era than Rice did. 

/rant

Edit to add: Moss played 14 seasons. Rice played 20. So longevity IS one of the ways in which he’s better. But, he passes Moss’s career totals for catches, TDS, yards, etc. somewhere in his 11th season, even with the 1/4 season missed to strike. So, again, to reemphasize: Moss’s 15 year totals fit somewhere in Rice’s 10th or 11th season, depending. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Moss, who would be considered the best WR ever if not for Rice's longevity

Blaspheme!  Rice is the GOAT, full stop.

[DanteGabriel]

Randy Moss had the tools to be the greatest of all time, but for his focus and work ethic. Rice never had the greatest talent, but his preparation and polish made him dominant in his prime and sneakily productive in his latter career.

Remember as well: Rice lost a season and some of his speed to a torn ACL in 1997 (if I recall correctly, Warren Sapp dragged him down by the facemask when Rice had his foot planted).

The most thrilling season I ever watched was the 2007 Pats, and I'm still annoyed with Rice for being a dick about Ballghazi through his Stickum hypocrisy, but there's no argument about the greatest receiver of all time.

ETA: The universe has strange rhythms. "Jerry Rice: a Football Life" is on NFL Network right now.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Remember as well: Rice lost a season and some of his speed to a torn ACL in 1997 (if I recall correctly, Warren Sapp dragged him down by the facemask when Rice had his foot planted).

Yep he tore both his ACL and MCL in the opening game.  He came back 14 weeks later on Monday Night against the Broncos, only to break the kneecap of that same left knee on a TD catch.  Even if he called it a career then - at 35 - he'd still be considered the greatest WR ever to this day.  Instead, he came back the next year and had over 80 catches and 1100 yards.  

3 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

Randy Moss had the tools to be the greatest of all time, but for his focus and work ethic.

You could say this about literally dozens of athletes in any sport - hundreds if you add health.  Rice earned his moniker as GOAT, and frankly, there's no other receiver that's even in his league.  I doubt there ever will be. 

ETA:  That's not meant to discount Moss' career - at this point I'd put him in a group with Owens and Fitzgerald in a second tier.  But I scoff at saying Moss had more "talent" than Rice.  No.  That talent was just more notable because Moss was taller.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Heretics! The lot of you are all heretics! Bow to the Super Freak!:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/randy-moss-may-well-have-been-the-greatest-receiver-of-all-time/

[DanteGabriel]

6 hours ago, dmc515 said:

ETA:  That's not meant to discount Moss' career - at this point I'd put him in a group with Owens and Fitzgerald in a second tier.  But I scoff at saying Moss had more "talent" than Rice.  No.  That talent was just more notable because Moss was taller.

Taller, faster, and a better jumper, which is kind of what I meant by talent.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, DanteGabriel said:

Taller, faster, and a better jumper, which is kind of what I meant by talent.

Faster, maybe, but Rice was definitely quicker/more agile.  And I do think it's unfortunate that we equate combine measurements of height/strength/speed etc. with "talent."  Those are physical attributes that provide information on athleticism.  They don't indicate the technical skills necessary for any athlete's particular specialization.  Think of baseball - none of those measurements are going to tell you anything about a batter's hit tool (albeit strength will help with one's power tool).

[DanteGabriel]

4 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Faster, maybe, but Rice was definitely quicker/more agile.  And I do think it's unfortunate that we equate combine measurements of height/strength/speed etc. with "talent."  Those are physical attributes that provide information on athleticism.  They don't indicate the technical skills necessary for any athlete's particular specialization.  Think of baseball - none of those measurements are going to tell you anything about a batter's hit tool (albeit strength will help with one's power tool).

Well, look, I said Moss had the physical tools to be the greatest. He was an athletic freak. Why does this have to so fucking bloody-minded? Go pick your nits somewhere else, professor.

[Maithanet]

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Heretics! The lot of you are all heretics! Bow to the Super Freak!:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/randy-moss-may-well-have-been-the-greatest-receiver-of-all-time/

Meh, I read that article when it came out and was unimpressed then too.  The reason we have such a robust dataset for Moss is because so many teams were willing to give up on the guy.  Any receiver who freely admits he was phoning it in for 3 whole seasons doesn't deserve mention as a GOAT. 

Moss can be discussed among the most ridiculous athletes of the NFL, along with guys like Bo Jackson and Lawrence Taylor. 

But when it comes to greatest WR, it's Rice and it's not even close.  Put it this way, if every NFL receiver of all time were coming out of college and NFL teams were drafting them (knowing what they do now), does Moss even go in the Top 10?  Because the guy is locker room poison.  I think there's a lot of NFL teams that would rather have a clearly inferior talent like say Hines Ward or Larry Fitzgerald because those guys actually help you win. 

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Go pick your nits somewhere else, professor.

I prefer to pick them here!  Wasn't really arguing with you - I said "we" because I do it too - just musing.

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

The reason we have such a robust dataset for Moss is because so many teams were willing to give up on the guy. 

Yeah that article doesn't even argue that Moss was the GOAT, just that he had a really cool dataset.  And my favorite quote from it:

Quote

When told of the aforementioned comments by Moss, Jerry Rice quipped: “I impacted the game by winning Super Bowls.”

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, dmc515 said:

Faster, maybe, but Rice was definitely quicker/more agile.  And I do think it's unfortunate that we equate combine measurements of height/strength/speed etc. with "talent."  Those are physical attributes that provide information on athleticism.  They don't indicate the technical skills necessary for any athlete's particular specialization.  Think of baseball - none of those measurements are going to tell you anything about a batter's hit tool (albeit strength will help with one's power tool).

Faster maybe? Randy Moss is one of the five fastest WRs in NFL history and his top gear was second to none. And you can’t discount his vertical skills. That’s really important for a WR. Randy Moss also had elite ball skills, which is why he was consistently able to catch the ball when three freaking people were covering him. He struck terror in the hearts of opposing defenses in a way Rice never did. Entirely new defensive schemes were created specifically for him and that allowed his teammates to have greater success. Randy Moss isn’t the GOAT because he wasn’t always giving his best effort, but he is hands down the most talented player to ever play the position.

Repent you sinner!

1 hour ago, Maithanet said:

Meh, I read that article when it came out and was unimpressed then too.  The reason we have such a robust dataset for Moss is because so many teams were willing to give up on the guy.  Any receiver who freely admits he was phoning it in for 3 whole seasons doesn't deserve mention as a GOAT. 

Moss can be discussed among the most ridiculous athletes of the NFL, along with guys like Bo Jackson and Lawrence Taylor. 

But when it comes to greatest WR, it's Rice and it's not even close.  Put it this way, if every NFL receiver of all time were coming out of college and NFL teams were drafting them (knowing what they do now), does Moss even go in the Top 10?  Because the guy is locker room poison.  I think there's a lot of NFL teams that would rather have a clearly inferior talent like say Hines Ward or Larry Fitzgerald because those guys actually help you win. 

Moss probably goes third after Rice and Johnson, but he would be graded as the best talent. And IDK how you can say Moss didn’t help people win. Outside of the slop in Oakland, he made every QB he played with better, including the so called GOAT.

[IamMe90]

1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

Well, look, I said Moss had the physical tools to be the greatest. He was an athletic freak. Why does this have to so fucking bloody-minded? Go pick your nits somewhere else, professor.

It's a discussion thread devoted to a sport between seasons. What do you expect? Don't take it so personally. 

[DMC]

26 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Randy Moss isn’t the GOAT because he wasn’t always giving his best effort, but he is hands down the most talented player to ever play the position.

See above about talent.  I'll take Rice's hands, route-running, and ability to read defenses in order to get open and complete many more plays over Moss' speed and ball skills every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  You're right that Moss is the most explosive receiver ever - he was unique in being able to put up a game box score of 3 catches, 150 yards, 2 TDs - but that doesn't make him the most talented by a long shot.

[Maithanet]

31 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Moss probably goes third after Rice and Johnson, but he would be graded as the best talent. And IDK how you can say Moss didn’t help people win. Outside of the slop in Oakland, he made every QB he played with better, including the so called GOAT.

Brady getting better in 2007 occurred the exact same year that Wes Welker arrived.  Both obviously helped a lot, but the Patriots were more willing to part with Moss, and have been careful to ensure they have someone with Welker's skill set ever since (the same cannot be said of Moss). 

As for the draft, you must be joking.  Three different teams (Vikings, Raiders, Patriots) shipped Moss out when he was still physically elite.  Taking him ahead of someone like Fitzgerald is straight crazy.  Moss might give you 3 more touchdowns one year, but he also might completely give up on the season, something he did in Minnesota and Oakland and might have been about to do in New England.  And when he does it, the GM gets fired. 

[Maithanet]

7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

See above about talent.  I'll take Rice's hands, route-running, and ability to read defenses in order to get open and complete many more plays over Moss' speed and ball skills every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  You're right that Moss is the most explosive receiver ever - he was unique in being able to put up a game box score of 3 catches, 150 yards, 2 TDs - but that doesn't make him the most talented by a long shot.

I also think we're selling Rice's speed short.  The guy wasn't a track star, but when running routes back in the 80s he looked faster than everybody else - he could run away from DBs too.  I'm sure Moss was a little faster than Rice, but it's not like Rice is some "possession receiver".