Kandrax

Cutting tongues.

110 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Well, you asked the non-rhetorical question, so I'll give it a go :thumbsup: I absolutely agree that this is highly suggestive of the idea they have their tongues cut out, but it is in no way conclusive. I'm not taking a position on either side, yet, because those important two last lines includes four - count them - four ellipses. Each one indicates missing words, and all we have to fill those missing words is our imagination. It's as easy to imagine a sentence including those phrases which give very different a reading, for instance 'if they kept ther tongues still', 'if they kept their tongues idle', [if they kept their tongues only for us'... And by 'tongues' they may also mean languages, perhaps in addition to learning the Common Tongue.

The point is, this is not a clear picture - it's very much a Rorschach image. Very suggestive, but with enough room to let us see what we want to see. It's not as though the George never uses this device elsewhere, to lead us down a path, then disabuse us later in the story. And he does particularly use an ellipsis where one character is interrupted by another, who completes the sentence incorrectly. Unfortunately the search will not look for ellipses, so the only example I can scrape off the top of my head is this one:

Cersei flies off the handle and assumes Pycelle is about to give a gynecological lecture, but that ellipsis is much more likely to conceal a name, and Cersei has misinterpreted, and heard what she wanted to. There are other examples, I can't recall them now, but it happens often enough that I take note when the George uses an ellipsis. It indicates missing words which are usually significant.

And of course, we do know that not all those who do not speak lack tongues:

When it comes to the Little Birds, I will not be 100% on either side until and unless one of them speaks, or someone looks one in the mouth and exclaims 'The bastard spider has cut her tongue out!'

 

Fair enough. There's definitely something about GRRM's use of ellipses. I noticed that ADWD is especially heavy with them. Here, they're about how they're moving out of earshot of Arya and she's not catching everything, but it still fits.

I'm still leaning strongly the other way though but will keep an open mind. An analysis of the ellipse use would be interesting.

 

This doesn't really say anything either way about the Silent Sisters, but it's interesting. From the unedited Westerlands chapter on GRRM's website.

TWOIAF The Westerlands

Trusting in her walls, Lady Tarbeck no doubt anticipated a long siege, but Ser Tywin sent his men-at-arms surging forward with ladders and grappling hooks and battering rams instead.  The fighting lasted less than an hour, accounts agree.  As the ram smashed through the castle’s main gates, two other gates were opened from within, and the Lannisters came swarming through.  Those who fled were spared; those who fought were put to the sword.  Ellyn Tarbeck herself was taken with her children, and thrown from the window of the castle’s tallest tower, to strangle kicking at the end of a noose.  Her son Tion the Red preceded her in death, cut down in the fighting at the main gates.  He was nineteen years of age when he died, the same age as Tywin Lannister.  Her daughters Rohanne and Cyrelle, whose husbands had been beheaded with Lord Walderan, were taken alive, and spent the remainder of their lives with the silent sisters (accounts differ as to whether Ser Tywin first had their tongues removed).

 http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

 

Edited by Lollygag

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On April 2, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

Yes, they both have short-falls and I guess I would not be as prejudiced against Aegon if people in the books weren't droning at infinitum how "perfect" he is.

He's totally normal for his perpurted social status,age, and gender. I too roll my eyes when people pretend he is the chosen one.

On April 2, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

As for Tyrion and is motivations I think it is complex but I have this (possibly "tin foil") that Varys is using him as a "product tester" with Aegon to see whether or not he believes him genuine.  But I think in turn Tyrion wants to know more himself before he fully commits himself to him or Dany and my wager is on Dany all the way.

Could be Varys wished Tyrion could mentore the boy slightly-he'd be the one person to which has played an active roll in shaping Westeroes' political landscape that the boy has talked to. Tyrion was a child when KL was shacked and Rheagar's lineage was showed to be destroyed and he likely wouldn't be able to definitely say Aegon is false from the boy's behavior because everyone in Young Griff's band as well as him is under the impression he is the son Rheagar.

On April 2, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

Now, lol, this series is so vast that I forget stuff, my apologies but I cannot recall the moment when Tyrion stated that women should not opine in matters of war. If you quote it I am sure you are right and he did.

I don't have AGOT with me but it's when he's approaching Tywin's camp, he makes clear he found the Moutain men letting their women have voice in matters of war wrong,as the democratic way the Hillmen live by.

On April 2, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

If Cersei was the woman in question, however, I would argue that he use this sexism as an excuse.  Cersei clearly could not be trusted with the wildfire, for instance.   All in all he was happy with Chella of the Black Ears or something and I cannot think of who else he might have attacked in that regard but hey, yes, he is a product of his society like many others and I would accept it.  Just cannot remember when he did this.

There is literally no valid reason Tyrion could come up with that could justify keeping Cersi in the dark about the wildfire plan. Quite, honestly it was another example of Tyrion wanting to provoke Cersi just to get off-some others were kidnapping Tommen when Cersi attempted to get him to smuggle him to safety for no real reason other than he thought it'd be funny.

Quite honestly Tyrion is far more like his sister than he'd care to admit; both are prone to self-delusion, both have little restraint in their actions when being mocked, and both are willingly to sacrifice those around them for revenge, . Hell I'd say Tyrion in one way is worse than Tyrion ; at least usually Cersi recognizes she is probably condemning someone who did her no wrong and whose treated right to death for her plans; Tyrion didn't even register his plan to place Myceralla as Queen would have resulted in her death or show much care that Tommen's life may be put in danger.

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On 4/14/2018 at 1:47 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's totally normal for his perpurted social status,age, and gender. I too roll my eyes when people pretend he is the chosen one.

Could be Varys wished Tyrion could mentore the boy slightly-he'd be the one person to which has played an active roll in shaping Westeroes' political landscape that the boy has talked to. Tyrion was a child when KL was shacked and Rheagar's lineage was showed to be destroyed and he likely wouldn't be able to definitely say Aegon is false from the boy's behavior because everyone in Young Griff's band as well as him is under the impression he is the son Rheagar.

I don't have AGOT with me but it's when he's approaching Tywin's camp, he makes clear he found the Moutain men letting their women have voice in matters of war wrong,as the democratic way the Hillmen live by.

There is literally no valid reason Tyrion could come up with that could justify keeping Cersi in the dark about the wildfire plan. Quite, honestly it was another example of Tyrion wanting to provoke Cersi just to get off-some others were kidnapping Tommen when Cersi attempted to get him to smuggle him to safety for no real reason other than he thought it'd be funny.

Quite honestly Tyrion is far more like his sister than he'd care to admit; both are prone to self-delusion, both have little restraint in their actions when being mocked, and both are willingly to sacrifice those around them for revenge, . Hell I'd say Tyrion in one way is worse than Tyrion ; at least usually Cersi recognizes she is probably condemning someone who did her no wrong and whose treated right to death for her plans; Tyrion didn't even register his plan to place Myceralla as Queen would have resulted in her death or show much care that Tommen's life may be put in danger.

I would be inclined to agree but something about that young man brought flags into my eyes lol!  Okay, being honest, as a teen girl I would have found him well "perfect" and not in a good way.  Now, I part from the idea that he is fake but that he doesn't know it and neither does Jon Connington. I think what you say has merit but okay, was never taken by this character and, at the end of the day, we all have favourites rationally or otherwise...

It  is a strong possibility and it makes sense too but I keep betting for Varys on team Danny and fAegon a means to an end, but only the books will tell...

And yet he has wildling women in his entourage.  I personally think Tyrion couldn't care less one way or the other, whatever works!  I hate, however, feminism (not by you btw) being brought in by people that appear to be incapable of transoporting themselves to a world that is not our 21st century and our rights lol (again emphasizing my comment is not directed at you_

lol here, no, no, no!!!! Cersei with wildfire is not dissimilar to the Mad King with it!!! Yes, in hierachy yes, he should tell her, but c'mom, fuck the hierarchy, win the battle with some modicum of control on casualties lol.  If I were in his place, last thing I would do would be to inform her!  Had I done so more lives would be upon my conscience lol! Tyrion killed a lot of people and that was nasty but no, they are not the same. Tyrion wants to win with minimum casualties, she doesn't care!

Oh, yes they both look after number one, as does any human being I have ever met, which includes sacrifice for number one but no, Tyrion is a true politician and he understands the possible pacts with other territories and to be sue after what we saw with Joff, Tyrion taking his nephews/nieces away was not such a bad plan!

I grant you that he may use them as Cyvasse pieces and that Cersei loves them more but in that world even your own children, and even yourself are Cyvasse pieces, and he had seen what Joff had become...  If I were Tyrion and I truly loved my nephews, the further from her the better, just as with Lysa Arryn lol and her boy!

Now, totally unrelated but given your "name" and your posts you are a bit of an authority on Varys, a character I love, why are you so sure he is pro Aegon???  More than happy to see theories although my heart is telling me otherwise but hey, all in good banter! ;)

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 4/2/2018 at 7:28 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

We may not everything of Young griff's life but we see through Tyrion's eyes Aegon's daily teachings. History, language, religion, war,math and science are cornerstones of young Aegon's education. 

Useful things to gear someone to bring competent at ruling a kingdom. 

But not a whiff of revolutionary rhetoric; not instruction of really bringing any real reforms to the basic structure of the goverment that presides in Westeroes.

I do however think he needs some slack for the times he was rude to Tyrion. 

Aegon V is a noble teen male after all. Most want to prove how great they know they are and think they're men(while still being boys). I believe you're talking about Tyrion being allowed to stay above deck to a battle or going out on the town. Which to a teen boy like Aegon seems so wrong; he could take care of himself more than a dwarf surely. To be clear Tyrion is prejudiced just as much as Young griff honestly. He does not see any sense in allowing women to have input of matters of war. Hes nearly as prejudiced as really any nobleman. He's always viewed himself as a nobleman who'd happened to suffer dwarfism not a dwarf who was lucky enough to be apart of the nobility. From what I recall he never really went out of his way to bully the half-man, hell hes mostly been pretty polite even friendly with the dwarf. His outburst at Tyrion for the Cynasse game comes from Tyrion slightly unraveling everything Aegon has believed near his entire life, and showing him to be a fool;Tyrion can come off as a prick and could be a jerk at times. Tyrion's plan may work. It may not. But I wager deep down he hoped Aegon would heed it and knew there was a real chance the boy would thus he's willing to stake Aegon and co's lives on it. 

 

My apologies you are right, I guess I was saturated enough with characters after book 3 or 4 and only took on board the ones that interst me lol. lile Olenna or Lady Royce, As a character i found Aegon blander than bland... perfect...I admit my bias, we already had a good cast and he didn't match up to them...for me (but my complaint to the author not you lol) is the guy is bland and too late in the story for me to care...  Had he been there from the beginning, but I think it would be awfully cheap for George to just pull ou this super hero in book 5 lol  So I admit I will find faults with him because I was happier in the show with No Aegon at All!  But hey, yes irrationally I hate his existence lol!  In my humble opinion the books would have been better without him, although the Illyrio/Varys thing may need him lol  Please, don't hate me for this as we are all entitled our favourites and not so.... lol

Okay, I don't speak for Tyrion (the character I identify most in the series  both books and show) if it were up to me Aegon would not see another day, why??? highly complex and for another post, for one I hate Connington ...

I personally think he is there in the books to juxtapose him to Jon, who was at least fleshed out and also has per the prophecy (or Dany has -although I take that with pinch of salt too but still...) "to give the heroes something to fight" or some such, cannot remember the exact quote,  lol sorry that I hate this character but to me is underdeveloped and bland...

 

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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3 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

My apologies you are right, I guess I was saturated enough with characters after book 3 or 4 and only took on board the ones that interst me lol. lile Olenna or Lady Royce, As a character i found Aegon blander than bland... perfect...I admit my bias, we already had a good cast and he didn't match up to them...for me (but my complaint to the author not you lol) is the guy is bland and too late in the story for me to care...  Had he been there from the beginning, but I think it would be awfully cheap for George to just pull ou this super hero in book 5 lol  So I admit I will find faults with him because I was happier in the show with No Aegon at All!  But hey, yes irrationally I hate his existence lol!  In my humble opinion the books would have been better without him, although the Illyrio/Varys thing may need him lol  Please, don't hate me for this as we are all entitled our favourites and not so.... lol

Okay, I don't speak for Tyrion (the character I identify most in the series  both books and show) if it were up to me Aegon would not see another day, why??? highly complex and for another post, for one I hate Connington ...

I personally think he is there in the books to juxtapose him to Jon, who was at least fleshed out and also has per the prophecy (or Dany has -although I take that with pinch of salt too but still...) "to give the heroes something to fight" or some such, cannot remember the exact quote,  lol sorry that I hate this character but to me is underdeveloped and bland...

 

Well to be fair to (f)Aegon, he really hasn't had much of a chance to be anything more than bland. All he's had is maybe what? Maybe a half dozen or so chapters between Tyrion and JonCon's POVs? That's not to say I particularly approve of him coming out of nowhere to seemingly hijack Dany's plot, but it could be he'll be more fleshed out as a person rather than a history lesson and plot device in the next novel. He and Dany have very similar stories, though hers was fleshed out and we got to see her growth as a person. Aegon just got thrust on us, but I did find it somewhat gratifying that he took one novel(less really) to do what Dany hasn't done in five. So at least something is happening with his story. Truthfully I'm wondering if this is Martin's solution to the Mereenese knot. Since he can't get Dany out of it, he writes in a character that isn't bound by it and in fact adamantly declares going east is a terrible idea after being persuaded by one of the fan favorites.

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On 4/17/2018 at 5:49 AM, Lord Lannister said:

Well to be fair to (f)Aegon, he really hasn't had much of a chance to be anything more than bland. All he's had is maybe what? Maybe a half dozen or so chapters between Tyrion and JonCon's POVs? That's not to say I particularly approve of him coming out of nowhere to seemingly hijack Dany's plot, but it could be he'll be more fleshed out as a person rather than a history lesson and plot device in the next novel. He and Dany have very similar stories, though hers was fleshed out and we got to see her growth as a person. Aegon just got thrust on us, but I did find it somewhat gratifying that he took one novel(less really) to do what Dany hasn't done in five. So at least something is happening with his story. Truthfully I'm wondering if this is Martin's solution to the Mereenese knot. Since he can't get Dany out of it, he writes in a character that isn't bound by it and in fact adamantly declares going east is a terrible idea after being persuaded by one of the fan favorites.

I have to agree with this.  Okay, just because he is not my favourite marriage connection, too young and too bland by far lol! yes, I think he serves a purpose in the story.  He must!!!  I guess my annoyance comes from him being described at infinitum as "perfect" when I could see otherwise lol  I am sure we are going to see more of him in the next book, but I also fear he will be the one to kill the Lannister youngsters, aided by the Dornish lady who is as beautiful as Cersei but possibly even more selfiish lol.  Okay, all speculation and that is what it makes if fun, lol, but I think Arienne will be his queen, for a brief period and that he will be about okay, just bland and that Arienne will do the rest.  This is just a stupid prediction of course!  

Now I think Varys and Illyrio up to some more... I reckon Varys (look at his name, is a proper Targ, bastard sure ...) and that he is fooling Illyrio and Tyrion (to a point) and that Aegon is necessary in the books for this plot...  Also Varys was "cut" was it for royal blood???

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On 4/17/2018 at 0:49 AM, Lord Lannister said:

Well to be fair to (f)Aegon, he really hasn't had much of a chance to be anything more than bland. All he's had is maybe what? Maybe a half dozen or so chapters between Tyrion and JonCon's POVs? That's not to say I particularly approve of him coming out of nowhere to seemingly hijack Dany's plot, but it could be he'll be more fleshed out as a person rather than a history lesson and plot device in the next novel. He and Dany have very similar stories, though hers was fleshed out and we got to see her growth as a person. Aegon just got thrust on us, but I did find it somewhat gratifying that he took one novel(less really) to do what Dany hasn't done in five. So at least something is happening with his story. Truthfully I'm wondering if this is Martin's solution to the Mereenese knot. Since he can't get Dany out of it, he writes in a character that isn't bound by it and in fact adamantly declares going east is a terrible idea after being persuaded by one of the fan favorites.

Good points!  However, I think you're bending over backwards to account for something that's easier explained...

Quite simply, fAegon is boring, because GRRM is bored by him.  True heresy: The character is not important.

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On 4/17/2018 at 5:49 AM, Lord Lannister said:

Well to be fair to (f)Aegon, he really hasn't had much of a chance to be anything more than bland. All he's had is maybe what? Maybe a half dozen or so chapters between Tyrion and JonCon's POVs? That's not to say I particularly approve of him coming out of nowhere to seemingly hijack Dany's plot, but it could be he'll be more fleshed out as a person rather than a history lesson and plot device in the next novel. He and Dany have very similar stories, though hers was fleshed out and we got to see her growth as a person. Aegon just got thrust on us, but I did find it somewhat gratifying that he took one novel(less really) to do what Dany hasn't done in five. So at least something is happening with his story. Truthfully I'm wondering if this is Martin's solution to the Mereenese knot. Since he can't get Dany out of it, he writes in a character that isn't bound by it and in fact adamantly declares going east is a terrible idea after being persuaded by one of the fan favorites.

lol good point; Mereen has bored me out of my wits lol  I guess I just don't have the patience for heroes coming out of nowhere this late in the game lol!  I personally think he is fake but doesn't know it and I guess he is a literary point for another character, possibly Danny.  I guess my rage comes from getting attached to characters for so many books and then these new comers who are blander than the original ones taking over lol  

I personally think he will sit the Iron Throne for a bit but that he will not be a perfect prince at all...so he gives the "heroes" something to fight for lol  I do not see him as a consort to Dany but Arianne. You have a point with Dany lingering away and we will finally see (hopefully whose side Varys truly is on) ;)  Totally convinced, but pretty much on my own here, that he is fooling Illyrio and that he is proper Targ blood (hence he was cut) but we shall see... or we hope lol;)

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13 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Good points!  However, I think you're bending over backwards to account for something that's easier explained...

Quite simply, fAegon is boring, because GRRM is bored by him.  True heresy: The character is not important.

Clearly, he is nothing more than a cloth dragon on poles. The George is using the character in his saga, to give the heroine Daenerys something to fight. 

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