Juggling Truth, Death, and Madness: Examining the Fools of Westeros

[hiemal]

Existing outside the traditional hierarchy of power, fools enjoy a unique relationship with truth- as do all the groups of Outsiders. We have the Bard's Romantic Truth, the Mystic's Revelations and Apocalypse, the Maester's Historic Truth, and the Fool's barbed and personal truth. The fool's motley marks him as an outsider and grants him leave to speak truth to power in a way that few others enjoy.

"Lord Tywin's mouth tightened. "Very droll. Shall I have them sew you a suit of motley, and a little hat with bells on it?"

"If I wear it, do I have leave to say anything I want about His Grace King Joffrey?". . . ASoS

 

Complicating things, however, we seem to have two models for the Fool in Westeros: the King Lear's Fool with his "'nuncles" and his uncanny insight and the Holy Fool/Holy Knight of Percival/Florian as well as fools whose Truth might be more akin to one of the other groups of Outsiders (like Patchface as a Mystic Fool). I wanted to list those who I think belong in the list of Fools of Westeros and very briefly discuss them, starting with the more Learian:

 

Aegon Frey "Jinglebell": "

"Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye." . . . ASoS

"I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells.". . . ASoS

" She tugged hard on Aegon's hair and sawed at his neck until the blade grated on bone. Blood ran hot over her fingers. His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing, and the drum went boom doom boom.". . . ASoS

 

That's two prophesies foretelling Jinglebell's death, one from a mystic fool and the other from a fool mystic. Was Aegon actually simple or was there something more going on here? He wore no motley, although a coxcomb with dragons clutching bells in their mouth would have been some nice and spiteful symbolism. He knows what Cat is going to do before she slits his throat:

"She pressed the blade deeper into Jinglebell's throat. The lackwit rolled his eyes at her in mute appeal. A foul stench assailed her nose, but she paid it no more mind than she did the sullen ceaseless pounding of that drum, boom doom boom doom boom doom.". . . ASoS

 

Butterbumps:

Butterbumps arrived before the food, dressed in a jester's suit of green and yellow feathers with a floppy coxcomb. An immense round fat man, as big as three Moon Boys, he came cartwheeling into the hall, vaulted onto the table, and laid a gigantic egg right in front of Sansa. "Break it, my lady," he commanded. When she did, a dozen yellow chicks escaped and began running in all directions. "Catch them!" Butterbumps exclaimed. Little Lady Bulwer snagged one and handed it to him, whereby he tilted back his head, popped it into his huge rubbery mouth, and seemed to swallow it whole. When he belched, tiny yellow feathers flew out his nose. Lady Bulwer began to wail in distress, but her tears turned into a sudden squeal of delight when the chick came squirming out of the sleeve of her gown and ran down her arm.". . .

The Tyrell Fool wears a motley of feathers and uses sleight-of-hand to make it appear that he is eating birds. This could be his schtick or there could be something I'm missing here. He is grossly fat.

 

Ghost of High Heart:

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . ." She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!" . . . ASoS

I think she qualifies. She was at court with Jenny of Oldstones and although she wasn't officially a jester, her dwarfism and possible albinism makes her a prime candidate as well as her prophetic dreams.

 

Moon Boy:

"The king's own fool, the pie-faced simpleton called Moon Boy, danced about on stilts, all in motley, making mock of everyone with such deft cruelty that Sansa wondered if he was simple after all." . . . AGoT

Another simpleton, and one even Sansa suspects may be less simple than he appears. Dontos also suspects him of selling secrets to Varys, but a man with the mind of a child could be a very tall bird and Moon Boy is again on stilts at the Purple Wedding while roast heron is served.

"Moon Boy mounted his stilts and strode around the tables in pursuit of Lord Tyrell's ludicrously fat fool Butterbumps, and the lords and ladies sampled roast herons and cheese-and-onion pies". . . ASoS

I could go either way on this one. Apparently he wears the phases of the moon as his motley. Any ideas on what that's all about? To me it suggests Braavos and the Faceless Men but that seems too tinfoily even for me. If he has prophetic dreams he hasn't told them to anyone who has told them to us.

 

Manderly's Fool:

 

Mushroom:

"Mushroom's The Testimony of Mushroom is another matter, however. A dwarf three feet tall, with an enormous head (and an enormous member to go with it, if he is to be believed), Mushroom was the court jester, and was thought to be a lackwit. Therefore, the worthies of the court spoke freely around him. His Testimony alleges to be his account of the events of the years when he was at court, set down by a scribe whose name we do not know, and it is filled with Mushroom's tales of plots, murders, trysts, debaucheries, and more—and all in the most explicit detail. Septon Eustace's and Mushroom's accounts are often at odds with one another, but at times there are some surprising areas of agreement between them.". . . TWoIaF

Another dwarf, and possibly another mixture of roles. Mushroom seems to have been both fool and ersatz maester, one records the truth of history, albeit with a Fool's acid pen. Hopefully we will hear more from him in Fire and Blood.

 

Patchface:

"No one ever explained those two days the fool had been lost in the sea. The fisherfolk liked to say a mermaid had taught him to breathe water in return for his seed. Patchface himself had said nothing. The witty, clever lad that Lord Steffon had written of never reached Storm's End; the boy they found was someone else, broken in body and mind, hardly capable of speech, much less of wit. Yet his fool's face left no doubt of who he was. It was the fashion in the Free City of Volantis to tattoo the faces of slaves and servants; from neck to scalp the boy's skin had been patterned in squares of red and green motley.". . .ACoK

He is both a grotesque by way of his simplemindedness, but by training and acquired appearance by way of his motley tattoos and manner of dress. Strongly prophetic. I don't feel the need to go too far with him here.

 

Reek/Theon:

"And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.". . .ACoK

I think he qualifies by way being flayed partially into a motley skin much as Patchface has been inked. His castration also makes him an Outsider. He may also have prophetic dreams, as his dream at Winterfell of Robb and gray Wind pierced and bleeding could reasonably be seen as an omen or just a bad dream brought about his betrayal.

 

Tyrion:

"Dressed as he was, he made a comic sight. His doublet was divided down the middle; the left side was purple velvet with bronze studs; the right, yellow wool embroidered in green floral patterns. His breeches were similarly split; the right leg was solid green, the left leg striped in red and white. One of Illyrio's chests had been packed with a child's clothing, musty but well made. Septa Lemore had slit each garment apart, then sewn them back together, joining half of this to half of that to fashion a crude motley". . . ADwD

He is a fool both by birth, a dwarf with heterochromia, but by inclination and training. He is a noble and an outsider. He even dons motley as Yollo. I don't think any of his dreams are prophetic, unless I'm forgetting something. The only one that springs to mind is his "colorless world" dream after the Battle of Blackwater. Iirc GRRM has originally planned on developing the "fool" side of Tyrion more fully but then changed direction.

 

And on to the Florians:

 

Brienne:

"The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

Jaime took one look and burst into song. "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . .". . .ASoS

 

I think Brienne is Florian reborn, the Perfect Knight and the perfect Fool, and Jaime her Jonquil. She is an Outsider because of her freakish size.

 

Ser Duncan the Tall:

" Had ever a knight been made such a fool? Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall and slow as an aurochs.. . .

He thought back on all the songs he had heard, songs of blind Symeon Star-Eyes and noble Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redywne, and Florian the Fool. They had all won victories against foes far more terrible than any he would face. But they were great heroes, brave men of noble birth, except for Florian. And what am I?. . . 

"This morning the puppeteers were doing the tale of Florian and Jonquil. The fat Dornishwoman was working Florian in his armor made of motley, while the tall girl held Jonquil's strings. "You are no knight," she was saying as the puppet's mouth moved up and down. "I know you. You are Florian the Fool." . . .The Hedge Knight

An iconic Florian.

Ser Dontos:

"Dontos covered his mouth to stifle a burp. "Gods preserve you, my little Jonquil." He was growing weepy. The wine did that to him. "Give your Florian a little kiss now. A kiss for luck." He swayed toward her.". . . ACoK

Dontos is a poor Florian and he pays for it with his life. He is an Outsider because he is in Disgrace.

 

Easy:

" He could see some wrestling barrels up the steps, others on the barricade; stout old Kegs, as slow as ever, Spare Boot hopping along briskly on his carved wooden leg, half-mad Easy who fancied himself Florian the Fool reborn". . . ASoS

"He could see Easy spinning and slashing, laughing like a loon, his cloak flapping as he leapt from cask to cask. A bronze axe caught him just below the knee and the laughter turned into a bubbling shriek." ASoS

 

Easy is a brother of the Night's Watch- a Jonquil-less Florian. His death reminds me Nimble Dick's end at the hands of Shagwell. The Night's Watch are Outsiders because of their vows, which include technical castration. I think they have forgotten many of their Truths.

 

Shagwell:

"The lovers," Shagwell sighed loudly, "and what a lovely sight they are. 'Twould be cruel to separate the good knight and his lady." Then he laughed that high shrill laugh of his, and said, "Ah, but which one is the knight and which one is the lady?" . . . ASoS

"Shagwell dropped from the weirwood, braying laughter. He was garbed in motley, but so faded and stained that it showed more brown than grey or pink. In place of a jester's flail he had a triple morningstar, three spiked balls chained to a wooden haft. He swung it hard and low, and one of Crabb's knees exploded in a spray of blood and bone. "That's funny," Shagwell crowed as Dick fell.". . . AFfC

 

Shagwell is easily the worst of the bunch. He's mad and madcap. He wears motley and has the perception and tongue of a Learian Fool but he is also martial like a Florian. He certainly doesn't seem to have any prophetic dreams as he doesn't see the end coming for the Brave Companions or for himself. He is an Outsider as both a Sellsword and as an Outlaw. Their truths are hard.

...but I'm amusing, with all my japes and capers. I make men laugh."

"And women weep.". . . AFfC

 

The Smiling Knight:

"The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it. ." . . .ASoS

We don't know a lot about the Smiling Knight, but what we do know makes sound like another "bad" Florian to me. He is an Outsider as an Outlaw. Which makes Ulmer doubly an Outsider, going from Outlaw to Night's Watch. I wish we knew more of his stories.

 

 

So who am I missing? And what do you think about the role of Fools in ASoIaF? What is a Fool's Truth and what is Westeros' Grail?

 

 

 

[Curled Finger]

Interesting read, @hiemal.  I'm not good with symbolism or riddles and Patchface utterly stumps me.   The GOHH however, is easier to grasp once I settled in to the possibility she may be a COTF.  Mushroom.   Hrm.  He's so absurdly outlandish--it's hard to believe him though I suspect there is some truth in all his mad assertions.  He seems to enjoy being squarely in the middle of things and I reckon he is more of a disturbing force, playing factions against each other for whatever joy it brings him.   Dontos was made a fool, only a drunkard knight before.   It makes me wonder what the point of saving his life was if only to have Little Finger end it.   I guess the necklace and escape plan were a big deal, but it could not have been the only way to spirit Sansa away or kill Joffrey.   

It seems you're right on with your choices all being outsiders on the inside.  Mostly the fools are annoying.   They don't seem to be funny and I guess I just don't grasp the motive behind a grotesquerie or putting the simple minded on display.   Perhaps it's a widely used ploy?   Still Patchface is the strangest of them all.   He's got to mean something even if his prophecy is hard to understand? 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Interesting read, @hiemal.  I'm not good with symbolism or riddles and Patchface utterly stumps me...   Still Patchface is the strangest of them all.   He's got to mean something even if his prophecy is hard to understand? 

I have a lot of ideas about Patchface, but most of them are not really Fool-relevant. His gift of prophecy could just be the result of oxygen-starvation leaving him simple, and thus open to visions.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

The GOHH however, is easier to grasp once I settled in to the possibility she may be a COTF. 

It's a possibility I've considered, and I don't have any strong arguments against it but that may be too much the Outsider to play the Fool.

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

It seems you're right on with your choices all being outsiders on the inside.  Mostly the fools are annoying.   They don't seem to be funny and I guess I just don't grasp the motive behind a grotesquerie or putting the simple minded on display

 

As Merry Ol' Shags demonstrates, humor is subjective.

[Kandrax]

Aegon's name is symbolic. Judging by Catelyn's words, Walder kept his grandson hidden from people, but that time he decided to show him. Why?

To mock Robb. The last King in the North Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon. Walder was telling Robb that he is defeated.

Also he shares name with Rhaegar's son. Jinglebells have a mind of a child. 

Remember Varys's words "Why is it always the innocents who suffer the most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"

[Seams]

I suspect the fools are all reborn versions of characters we have seen elsewhere. For instance, Moonboy appears in the books immediately after the death of Ser Hugh of the Vale. Ser Hugh's cloak was patterned with moons.

The reader's logical next question, of course, is why GRRM would want a seemingly minor character such as Hugh to reappear in the form of a second minor character such as Moonboy? The answer might come back to the pattern you noticed, that fools are prophetic in various ways - they foreshadow things that will happen, if only we can figure out which details carry what message.

Your post actually helped me to put together a new piece of information about Moonboy and about Butterbumps, using the conclusion I had already (tentatively) drawn about Moonboy = Ser Hugh. Recall that Ser Hugh was a knight who was not ready to be a knight. He was killed in a jousting match at the Hand's Tourney when Ser Gregor drove a lance into his throat, taking advantage of a gorget that had not been properly fastened. So Hugh and Gregor - the Mountain - are linked.

The excerpt you cited about Butterbumps reminds me that Butterbumps is massive - "an immense round fat man, as big as three Moon boys." This is probably a symbolic Ser Gregor character, who is the biggest man in Westeros.

Another common detail to these two fools: Moonboy is a "pie-faced simpleton" and Ser Gregor both lays eggs and eats the birds that hatch from the eggs. So we have a probable allusion to the bird-filled pies that are a wedding feast tradition in Westeros. And where do these two fools come together? At the wedding feast for Joffrey and Margaery, the woman who remains a maid in spite of being married three times.

It hadn't crossed my mind before reading your post, but I bet that Moonboy's stilts at this event are wordplay on "lists" - when knights line up for jousting, they enter a tournament ground set up with lists. So Moonboy and Butterbumps are reenacting the jousting match here. But Moonboy (symbolic Ser Hugh) is already dead, right? Why would GRRM set up a symbolic jousting match between two fools? Because we are about to see a different boy - who is not ready to be a king - die from a throat "injury" that results from - ta da! - eating bird pie. (Or so Joffrey tells Tyrion with his dying words. I realize this is debatable and encourage other comments to stay on the fool topic instead of derailing the thread with a debate about Joffrey's cause of death.)

So Moonboy is not just a reincarnation of Ser Hugh, he is a symbolic Joffrey. This could help to explain Jaime's obsession with Tyrion's offhand comment that Cersei may have been sleeping with Moonboy. Cersei really did seem to care more about Joffrey than she does about anyone else. Jaime may have felt that Joffrey's birth began the alienation between him and Cersei with the gap widening after his return from being a POW at Riverrun and Joffrey's ascension to the throne.

That's just one example - or two, if you count Moonboy and Butterbumps separately. It's interesting to think of "Lord Tyrell's ludicrously fat fool" as a Gregor Clegane parallel. That suggests that we need to take a fresh look at Mace Tyrell as a Tywin wannabe. Rebuilding the Tower of the Hand is probably another sign that Mace has more going on in his head than we are led to suspect - perhaps he is not such a "fool" as we have assumed.

There's a ton more on this topic, and I will try to come back later with some more thoughts. I will just add here that GRRM seems to be deliberately withholding details of the Florian and Jonquil story, which seems to be linked to the Ser Galladon of Morne story (maybe they are versions of the same story). If I recall correctly, we are told that the song of Florian and Jonquil makes Sansa cry, so it probably has a tragic outcome. The puppet show in The Hedge Knight also tells us that Florian engages in combat with a giant. Putting that information together with the Moonboy / Butterbumps and Ser Hugh / Ser Gregor combat we have just assembled into a major clue, I would say that the Moonboy - Butterbumps "combat" could be a hint about Florian being killed by a giant in the legendary tale that has not been fully revealed to us.

I think you are also correct in thinking that GRRM is jumbling up the expectations about characters who are playing out the Florian and Jonquil (or Galladon of Morne) tale in the current events of the story - instead of being the maiden, Brienne is the knight. But wait - she's the maid of Tarth. No, wait - she's a giant! So who is Jaime? Brienne does encounter him bathing, just like the maiden bathing at Maidenpool. Who is Pod? Who is Hyle Hunt? Maester Aemon said that Tyrion is a giant - will he play a role in the Florian and Jonquil story? Another possible tangent that relates back: every time Brienne thinks of her encounter with Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse, she immediately thinks of Jaime. Maybe Brienne will be the giant in upcoming combat or jousting with Ser Shadrich?

The wheels are turning as I type: Shagwell breaks Nimble Dick's knee but then he bashes in his face, finishing him off. Nimble Dick is a former knight, much like Ser Dontos. Brienne comments on the spot where a lord's sigil has been torn from Dick's dirty surcoat or tunic, and she concludes that he might be a deserter. Instead of a fool/knight hybrid, as we are told is embodied in Florian and as we see in Ser Dontos, we have Shagwell and Dick separate but linked together as a knight and a fool. Dick is also a fool, though - he brags about having fooled a fool, sending Shagwell on a wild goose chase to Crackclaw Point and he also sings a lot on his travels with Brienne and Pod. After Brienne forces Shagwell to dig a grave for Dick, he tries to attack her and she ends up stabbing him with a dagger. So the fool and knight die together. At which point Ser Hyle Hunt appears and helps Brienne to bury Dick.

Shagwell uses a morningstar on the knee of Nimble Dick, as you point out, and Ser Dontos uses a ripe melon "morningstar" on the head of Sansa in a failed attempt to prevent Joffrey from ordering a more violent attack on Robb's sister. How do these "morningstars" connect to Ser Galladon of Morne and to the sword Dawn? Or to the Evenstar?

One thought on Ser Dontos before I have to get ready for work: he is killed by an crossbow men under orders from Littlefinger, which is the same thing (I believe) as Littlefinger killing him directly. The original Baelish sigil is the head of the titan of Braavos, right? So there is the giant again and even a direct Ser Gregor allusion as the head of Ser Gregor is severed yet Ser Robert Strong appears to be an effective guard and champion in spite of being dead and headless. So Ser Dontos is killed by a giant.

And a little weird teaser to infuriate or delight @Curled Finger: Lamentation = a titan lemon. Coincidence, or symbolic motif? You be the judge.

I bet all of these fool stories will come together in one logical set of symbols once the author finally gives us the full Florian and Jonquil story and we learn its tragic outcome.

[sweetsunray]

When you delve into fool symbolism I also recommend checking out the fool in tarot decks: especially the classic older ones, then rider waite’s fool and finally the fool of Crowley 

[hiemal]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

When you delve into fool symbolism I also recommend checking out the fool in tarot decks: especially the classic older ones, then rider waite’s fool and finally the fool of Crowley 

Good point! I think we've touched on the subject briefly in the past- here's what I remember:

The Fool's Quest: The Fool is card 0, the alpha and the omega, the nadir/beginning of the Great Wheel. More Florain the Learian?

The Fool starts by losing or renouncing everything but what he carries and who follows him (the Fool's dog, in the Rider Waite deck.

The Fool becomes the Magician. Butterbumps and his birds flies to mind, also Tyrion and his wildfire. Hmm, perhaps his glove with poisoned fingers that writes Nursey's end, as well?

In the Crowley deck, his coxcomb appears to be horns. Is he demonic, beastial, or a cuckold?

Is that a sheaf of grain he bears and grapes over one shoulder? And by his feet- a crocodile? And that dog is definitely going to town on his leg. And flowers between his legs. Growth and possibility from the muck? Indiscriminate fertility?

 

 

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I suspect the fools are all reborn versions of characters we have seen elsewhere. For instance, Moonboy appears in the books immediately after the death of Ser Hugh of the Vale. Ser Hugh's cloak was patterned with moons.

The reader's logical next question, of course, is why GRRM would want a seemingly minor character such as Hugh to reappear in the form of a second minor character such as Moonboy? The answer might come back to the pattern you noticed, that fools are prophetic in various ways - they foreshadow things that will happen, if only we can figure out which details carry what message.

Your post actually helped me to put together a new piece of information about Moonboy and about Butterbumps, using the conclusion I had already (tentatively) drawn about Moonboy = Ser Hugh. Recall that Ser Hugh was a knight who was not ready to be a knight. He was killed in a jousting match at the Hand's Tourney when Ser Gregor drove a lance into his throat, taking advantage of a gorget that had not been properly fastened. So Hugh and Gregor - the Mountain - are linked.

The excerpt you cited about Butterbumps reminds me that Butterbumps is massive - "an immense round fat man, as big as three Moon boys." This is probably a symbolic Ser Gregor character, who is the biggest man in Westeros.

Another common detail to these two fools: Moonboy is a "pie-faced simpleton" and Ser Gregor both lays eggs and eats the birds that hatch from the eggs. So we have a probable allusion to the bird-filled pies that are a wedding feast tradition in Westeros. And where do these two fools come together? At the wedding feast for Joffrey and Margaery, the woman who remains a maid in spite of being married three times.

It hadn't crossed my mind before reading your post, but I bet that Moonboy's stilts at this event are wordplay on "lists" - when knights line up for jousting, they enter a tournament ground set up with lists. So Moonboy and Butterbumps are reenacting the jousting match here. But Moonboy (symbolic Ser Hugh) is already dead, right? Why would GRRM set up a symbolic jousting match between two fools? Because we are about to see a different boy - who is not ready to be a king - die from a throat "injury" that results from - ta da! - eating bird pie. (Or so Joffrey tells Tyrion with his dying words. I realize this is debatable and encourage other comments to stay on the fool topic instead of derailing the thread with a debate about Joffrey's cause of death.)

So Moonboy is not just a reincarnation of Ser Hugh, he is a symbolic Joffrey. This could help to explain Jaime's obsession with Tyrion's offhand comment that Cersei may have been sleeping with Moonboy. Cersei really did seem to care more about Joffrey than she does about anyone else. Jaime may have felt that Joffrey's birth began the alienation between him and Cersei with the gap widening after his return from being a POW at Riverrun and Joffrey's ascension to the throne.

 

 

Excellent! I've been playing around with that pun as it regards the Maesters as the knights of the mind and their many lists and cataloges as well as the aisles of a library where they might do their mental jousting. Kudos on the Hugh/Moon Boy connection. I like it.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

That's just one example - or two, if you count Moonboy and Butterbumps separately. It's interesting to think of "Lord Tyrell's ludicrously fat fool" as a Gregor Clegane parallel. That suggests that we need to take a fresh look at Mace Tyrell as a Tywin wannabe. Rebuilding the Tower of the Hand is probably another sign that Mace has more going on in his head than we are led to suspect - perhaps he is not such a "fool" as we have assumed.

There's a ton more on this topic, and I will try to come back later with some more thoughts. I will just add here that GRRM seems to be deliberately withholding details of the Florian and Jonquil story, which seems to be linked to the Ser Galladon of Morne story (maybe they are versions of the same story). If I recall correctly, we are told that the song of Florian and Jonquil makes Sansa cry, so it probably has a tragic outcome. The puppet show in The Hedge Knight also tells us that Florian engages in combat with a giant. Putting that information together with the Moonboy / Butterbumps and Ser Hugh / Ser Gregor combat we have just assembled into a major clue, I would say that the Moonboy - Butterbumps "combat" could be a hint about Florian being killed by a giant in the legendary tale that has not been fully revealed to us.

I think you are also correct in thinking that GRRM is jumbling up the expectations about characters who are playing out the Florian and Jonquil (or Galladon of Morne) tale in the current events of the story - instead of being the maiden, Brienne is the knight. But wait - she's the maid of Tarth. No, wait - she's a giant! So who is Jaime? Brienne does encounter him bathing, just like the maiden bathing at Maidenpool. Who is Pod? Who is Hyle Hunt? Maester Aemon said that Tyrion is a giant - will he play a role in the Florian and Jonquil story? Another possible tangent that relates back: every time Brienne thinks of her encounter with Ser Shadrich, the Mad Mouse, she immediately thinks of Jaime. Maybe Brienne will be the giant in upcoming combat or jousting with Ser Shadrich?

 

As for the fate of Florian. although there is way too little to speculate on I am going to do so anyways and propose the tinfoil that Florian is the Black Gate.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

 

One thought on Ser Dontos before I have to get ready for work: he is killed by an crossbow men under orders from Littlefinger, which is the same thing (I believe) as Littlefinger killing him directly. The original Baelish sigil is the head of the titan of Braavos, right? So there is the giant again and even a direct Ser Gregor allusion as the head of Ser Gregor is severed yet Ser Robert Strong appears to be an effective guard and champion in spite of being dead and headless. So Ser Dontos is killed by a giant.

 

Great catch! That does put the old Baelish sigil into a new light, doesn't it?

2 hours ago, Seams said:

And a little weird teaser to infuriate or delight @Curled Finger: Lamentation = a titan lemon. Coincidence, or symbolic motif? You be the judge.

Aha! Speaking of VS, the VS sword Truth is not in Westeros (seems significant)- do you think it represents a Bard's Truth or a Fool's Truth?  A Fool's Truth is sharper- what if Truth is Just Maid?

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Aegon's name is symbolic. Judging by Catelyn's words, Walder kept his grandson hidden from people, but that time he decided to show him. Why?

To mock Robb. The last King in the North Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon. Walder was telling Robb that he is defeated.

Also he shares name with Rhaegar's son. Jinglebells have a mind of a child. 

Remember Varys's words "Why is it always the innocents who suffer the most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"

In all the wide world, is there such a prodigy as an innocent Frey?

"So young," said Wyman Manderly. "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey.". . . ADwD

If so, I suppose Aegon must be him.

[Rufus Snow]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

When you delve into fool symbolism I also recommend checking out the fool in tarot decks: especially the classic older ones, then rider waite’s fool and finally the fool of Crowley 

Once you go down that route, then you soon come to the Fool (Atu 0) being the beginning and the end of the whole cycle. Personally, I've also made a link between the motif of the Fool stepping over the cliff as an analogy to CuChullain in the Irish myths, and his 'Hero's Salmon Leap' - that anything less than absolute commitment leads to failure.

12 hours ago, hiemal said:

Existing outside the traditional hierarchy of power, fools enjoy a unique relationship with truth- as do all the groups of Outsiders. We have the Bard's Romantic Truth, the Mystic's Revelations and Apocalypse, the Maester's Historic Truth, and the Fool's barbed and personal truth. The fool's motley marks him as an outsider and grants him leave to speak truth to power in a way that few others enjoy.

-- snip for brevity --

 

So who am I missing? And what do you think about the role of Fools in ASoIaF? What is a Fool's Truth and what is Westeros' Grail?

You are missing the other joust at Joff's wedding - Penny and Groat, the jousting dwarfs - which leads to the long arc towards Tyrion riding the pig and becoming more of on outsider that he could have imagined.

It seems that Tyrion becomes the 'wise fool' of Aegon's court on the Shy Maid and the prime cause for Aegon taking the decision to go west rather than east - when Aegon takes the 'hero's leap' and goes all out with his own quest regardless of the dangers.

3 hours ago, Seams said:

And a little weird teaser to infuriate or delight @Curled Finger: Lamentation = a titan lemon. Coincidence, or symbolic motif? You be the judge.

A fun catch - but also 'me no anal tit' (though my friends might dispute that claim.... )

If you go deep enough with literary analysis you end up just looking at the structure of the language said literature is written in.

[Seams]

48 minutes ago, hiemal said:

. . . the VS sword Truth is not in Westeros (seems significant)- do you think it represents a Bard's Truth or a Fool's Truth?  A Fool's Truth is sharper- what if Truth is Just Maid?

I think you might be on the right track, if you believe that Tyrion is the king of all fools. If you can stand a little more of my insane wordplay obsession, I suspect that the crofter's daughter - Tysha - represents Truth. Tyrion is seeking the truth when he constantly asks, "Where do whores go?"

crofter's daughter = truth sacred forge

If all of these missing VS swords eventually tie into Tyrion's story line, what we are seeing is Tyrion "constructing" the Iron Throne - collecting "swords" to create a single, melted-down chair for himself (or for someone).

But that starts to take us away from your excellent fool topic, so might be better left for another thread. Sorry to go off on another tangent.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Good point! I think we've touched on the subject briefly in the past- here's what I remember:

The Fool's Quest: The Fool is card 0, the alpha and the omega, the nadir/beginning of the Great Wheel. More Florain the Learian?

The Fool starts by losing or renouncing everything but what he carries and who follows him (the Fool's dog, in the Rider Waite deck.

The Fool becomes the Magician. Butterbumps and his birds flies to mind, also Tyrion and his wildfire. Hmm, perhaps his glove with poisoned fingers that writes Nursey's end, as well?

In the Crowley deck, his coxcomb appears to be horns. Is he demonic, beastial, or a cuckold?

Is that a sheaf of grain he bears and grapes over one shoulder? And by his feet- a crocodile? And that dog is definitely going to town on his leg. And flowers between his legs. Growth and possibility from the muck? Indiscriminate fertility?

 

 

Not so much the esotheric meaning as the depictions are interesting.

http://tarotwheel.net/history/the individual trump cards/il matto - the fool.html

Initially in history the Fool is depicted as simple minded, a buffoon, half naked, bigger head, ass ears with bells, being laughed at and picked on by others but barely understanding or knowing what's going on. He's a madman, a village fool, mentally impaired. Several character fools can be classified with those.

But then you have the court jester, which is the opposite of the above. Court jesters are not mad or simple, they are very witty and smart, making fun of others and particularly chosen to do exactly that for their lord: make fun of their guests. These can also be wandering musicians. Several character fools can be classified in this section.

Then by the 19th century we get the Rider Waite fool: handsome young man with floral tunique and holding a flower delicately about to step off a cliff in the mountains, because he has his eyes on the sky. He's handsome, romantic, wandering innocent, but able minded. There's your Florian archetype. 

Waite's archenemy Crowley designs a completely different fool: a sort of physical grotesque, mix child mix adult, but not like the older ones. He's a giant who takes the space of corner of the cards. He has horns like a demon, but also wears a crystal prism from which a rainbow halo sprouts (euhm The Faith of Seven? Hugor Hill?). His ego (sun) is on crotch height. He wields "wild fire" in one hand, a downturned/ upside down cup pouring liquid in the other. And then his vices are wine (grapes) and money (bag of coins). A couple of naked innocent children is depicted on it: they lie in each others arms. And it's either a lioness or tigre (animal instinct) cluthcing his leg, and a rose growing in the mind of a crocodile swiming in the waters of creation. Only one character was written to match this fool: Tyrion. Whenever he throws or flips a coin in the air, or wine is spilled (or both) Tyrion's fate and path is altered greatly. BTW Crowley's friend was Lovecraft who wrote a story where Waite was the name of an evil wizard.

[Kandrax]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

innocent Frey?

Olyvar, Perwyn and Alessander, among adults.

 

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

"So young," said Wyman Manderly. "Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey.". . .

I wonder, how would people react, if someone says similar thing in real life?

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Once you go down that route, then you soon come to the Fool (Atu 0) being the beginning and the end of the whole cycle. Personally, I've also made a link between the motif of the Fool stepping over the cliff as an analogy to CuChullain in the Irish myths, and his 'Hero's Salmon Leap' - that anything less than absolute commitment leads to failure.

Except Tyrion never takes that leap voluntarily. He's forced onto another path. There's no more explicit scene proving this to us than when he's in the sky cells: a captive put in a cell in the skies with a floor that's skewed so you might roll out. But he refuses to take that leap.  Tyrion is not the Waite's fool, not a Florian, though he wants to be some pretty maiden's Florian.

Believing himself master of his own path and destiny he flips a coin in the air in the Crossroads, hoping to tempt someone to give up his room. He ends up being taken captive, and his captor even lies about the road she's going to take. He thus ends in the cells. He buys his freedom with a toss of a bag of coins. That's the last they see of him at the Eyrie, and he finds his way back to the Crossroads, once again believing himself lead and master of his own fate and destiny.

Money is shown and talked about: dad says he's to fight at the Green Fork. And then Tyrion spills wine to make a point about the fools in King's Landing lopping Ned's head off, and dad makes him temporary hand of the king. Even if his father takes up that gauntlet, Tyrion still gets to be "master of coin". Purple wine gets spilled at a wedding, and he lands himself in jail, accused of a crime he's innocent of.

Once more with a coin under a tile (not his coin this time, but planted by Varys) he's put on a boat across the Narrow Sea to Penthos, where he's liberated from the wine crate in Illyrio's wine cellar. He puked wine on the way over all over himself. Illyrio puts him on the Shy Maid. For once Tyrion has no wine, no money and no sex. He's called Hugor Hill, and he actually is less inhibited about "his fool" part. He manages to put himself in perspective, laugh at himself, and even when he makes fun of others he's less angry minded.

But then on the day he has money in his pocket, he goes to a slaving whorehouse, rapes a whore, pukes wine all over the carpet and tosses a bunch of coins in the air. He's kidnapped by Jorah before he can do anything else. And he ends up being sold as a slave with no money, no sex and no wine.

Tyrion leaps only once: before Jon. He's been tossed from here to there ever since.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

All men are knights and all men are fools where women are concerned...

I believe this is another symbolic dichotomy in which to both extremes lie doom. Like fire and ice. Love and Duty. Chivalry and foolishness.

But let’s not loose sight of the women!

As I believe each of these fools being tied to a women is important to understanding their meaning... (Note: while I think the ghost of high heart is relevant, I don’t think she’s a fool)

Interestingly there are 7 fools featured in ASoIaF:

I would propose each is a mockery of one of the Seven:

Moonboy: Mother Cersei’s fool (and maybe not so foolish, possibly employed by Varys). He has a pie shaped face, up jumped on stilts, and of course preforms at the purple wedding where Cersei’s son dies eating a pie. Moons are also associated with motherhood. 

Butterbumps: Crone of Thorns fool, he sings the maid and the maiden fair to mask her plotting with Sansa. The opposite of the Crone illuminating the way with her lamp.

Patchface: Shireen’s Stranger fool, has seemingly seen the other side. Where others may be knightly fools, he may well be Nights Fool.

Jinglebell: Fools blood and Maiden blood, Cat Kills him as a maiden is losing her virginity. And of course the Red Wedding itself was because the Maid Cat negotiated for her son was left a Maid.

Shagwell:  Brienne’s Warrior fool who fights and dies dishonorably and seems to care/protect nothing.

Ser Dontos: Sansa’s Smith fool who gives her a neckless. Of course it isn’t really fine workmanship, nor a family heirloom, and he didn’t even really construct the plan. 

Ser Manderly’s fool: Father Manderly’s fool, who is being bedded by a Frey’s handmaid for information. The Father is concerned with justice, and a man has a right to vengeance. Cooking people in pies is a mockery of justice however...

[Seams]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Not so much the esotheric meaning as the depictions are interesting.

http://tarotwheel.net/history/the individual trump cards/il matto - the fool.html

Initially in history the Fool is depicted as simple minded, a buffoon, half naked, bigger head, ass ears with bells, being laughed at and picked on by others but barely understanding or knowing what's going on. He's a madman, a village fool, mentally impaired. Several character fools can be classified with those.

But then you have the court jester, which is the opposite of the above. Court jesters are not mad or simple, they are very witty and smart, making fun of others and particularly chosen to do exactly that for their lord: make fun of their guests. These can also be wandering musicians. Several character fools can be classified in this section.

Then by the 19th century we get the Rider Waite fool: handsome young man with floral tunique and holding a flower delicately about to step off a cliff in the mountains, because he has his eyes on the sky. He's handsome, romantic, wandering innocent, but able minded. There's your Florian archetype. 

Waite's archenemy Crowley designs a completely different fool: a sort of physical grotesque, mix child mix adult, but not like the older ones. He's a giant who takes the space of corner of the cards. He has horns like a demon, but also wears a crystal prism from which a rainbow halo sprouts (euhm The Faith of Seven? Hugor Hill?). His ego (sun) is on crotch height. He wields "wild fire" in one hand, a downturned/ upside down cup pouring liquid in the other. And then his vices are wine (grapes) and money (bag of coins). A couple of naked innocent children is depicted on it: they lie in each others arms. And it's either a lioness or tigre (animal instinct) cluthcing his leg, and a rose growing in the mind of a crocodile swiming in the waters of creation. Only one character was written to match this fool: Tyrion. Whenever he throws or flips a coin in the air, or wine is spilled (or both) Tyrion's fate and path is altered greatly. BTW Crowley's friend was Lovecraft who wrote a story where Waite was the name of an evil wizard.

This and your subsequent post are fantastic! I'm so glad to learn about these sources of inspiration for GRRM's fools.

One part that is completely new to me is this fool with a flower, about to fall off a cliff. At the luncheon with Margaery and her attendants, Lady Olenna tells Sansa that her husband, Luthor Tyrell, died in a hawking accident when he didn't notice where he was going and rode off a cliff. And Olenna's grandson, Ser Loras, is the guy who carries around a flower everywhere. In keeping with the morningstar symbolism I mentioned in an earlier comment, he is also defeated in the Bitterbridge melee by Brienne, who uses a morningstar as her weapon. So the connection between Florian and the Knight of Flowers becomes clearer, if not entirely translucent. I would not have looked for a strong link between Ser Loras and fools, but the Tyrell link to fools does seem to be growing as this thread evolves.

Olenna herself was born a Redwyne, of course, with grapes as her family sigil.

Recent exploration of the Rainbow Guard symbolism also leads me to take special note of the crystal you mention in connection to the fool. (There are also singers, flowers and birds strongly associated with Rainbow Guard members, their histories, sigils, etc.) The motley that Tyrion and Septa Mordane make for Tyrion on board the Shy Maid contains seven colors. I had assumed that this represented the seven kingdoms, but my new fascination with rainbows leads me to think the connection to the Rainbow Guard and the Faith of the Seven is a closer fit. Your description of the crystal worn by the fool may confirm this.

A Rainbow Guard allusion (through the crystal and the rainbow halo) would be further evidence of a fool / Ser Loras link and might also tie into Brienne's strong connection to the Galladon of Morne / Florian and Jonquil imagery. The tourney at Ashford Meadow and the Hand's tourney include a number of the Rainbow Guard members or their ancestors as participants. I am guessing that an upcoming Vale gathering will tie into these two earlier tourneys, as a number of participants overlap with names we are seeing in Sansa / Alayne chapters in ADwD. So the "Fool - Knight" symbolism and the "rainbow" motif may come to a head - and the connections between the two motifs may become clearer - early in the next book.

So cool. Thanks for the background!

Edit: Another symbolic fool might be Septon Meribald. He travels barefoot, doesn't stick to the roads and has a dog along with him.

[Seams]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Except Tyrion never takes that leap voluntarily. He's forced onto another path. ...

Believing himself master of his own path and destiny he flips a coin in the air in the Crossroads, hoping to tempt someone to give up his room. And he ends up being sold as a slave with no money, no sex and no wine.

. . .

But then on the day he has money in his pocket, he goes to a slaving whorehouse, rapes a whore, pukes wine all over the carpet and tosses a bunch of coins in the air. He's kidnapped by Jorah before he can do anything else. And he ends up being sold as a slave with no money, no sex and no wine.

Tyrion leaps only once: before Jon. He's been tossed from here to there ever since.

But Tyrion's fortunes may change when the Widow of the Waterfront puts him together with his would-be assassin Penny - the name of a coin - who offers to teach him how to stay safe as a little person by being a fool. He takes on the role of her brother coin - Groat - and learns some new survival skills.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

All men are knights and all men are fools where women are concerned...

I believe this is another symbolic dichotomy in which to both extremes lie doom. Like fire and ice. Love and Duty. Chivalry and foolishness.

But let’s not loose sight of the women!

As I believe each of these fools being tied to a women is important to understanding their meaning... (Note: while I think the ghost of high heart is relevant, I don’t think she’s a fool)

Interestingly there are 7 fools featured in ASoIaF:

I would propose each is a mockery of one of the Seven:

Moonboy: Mother Cersei’s fool (and maybe not so foolish, possibly employed by Varys). He has a pie shaped face, up jumped on stilts, and of course preforms at the purple wedding where Cersei’s son dies eating a pie. Moons are also associated with motherhood. 

Butterbumps: Crone of Thorns fool, he sings the maid and the maiden fair to mask her plotting with Sansa. The opposite of the Crone illuminating the way with her lamp.

Patchface: Shireen’s Stranger fool, has seemingly seen the other side. Where others may be knightly fools, he may well be Nights Fool.

Jinglebell: Fools blood and Maiden blood, Cat Kills him as a maiden is losing her virginity.

Shagwell:  Brienne’s Warrior fool who fights and dies dishonorably and seems to care/protect nothing.

Ser Dontos: Sansa’s Smith fool who gives her a neckless. Of course it isn’t really from his family, nor did he really construct the plan. 

Ser Manderly’s fool: Father Manderly’s fool, who is being bedded by a Frey’s handmaid for information. The Father is concerned with justice, and a man has a right to vengeance. Cooking people in pies is a mockery of justice however...

I have taken a few looks at some of the partnerships between fools and women as well. Apparently that Florian and Jonquil pattern is more ubiquitous than it appears at first glance. Here are some links to old ideas (some of which have subsequently evolved).

Tyrion and Sansa (Butterbumps) Or maybe the partnership here is more between Aliser Thorne and Olenna Tyrell, the Queen of Thorns.

King Robert and Shireen (Patchface)

Tyrion and Penny (Tyrion)

I believe there may be other minor fools mentioned in the books - as well as the symbolic fools who are not portrayed as fools (Ser Loras, as outlined above, suddenly takes on many of the attributes and may be the best contender for a Florian figure if GRRM has plans for a more literal Florian in the denouement).  So I'm not sure your count of seven fools will stand, but the major ones are in your list, for sure.

I also suspect that ravens might qualify as fools although maybe they are just part of the "bird pie" motif that seems to be linked to fools.

[Rufus Snow]

16 hours ago, hiemal said:

Brienne:

"The pool from which the town took its name, where legend said that Florian the Fool had first glimpsed Jonquil bathing with her sisters, was so choked with rotting corpses that the water had turned into a murky grey-green soup.

Jaime took one look and burst into song. "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . .". . .ASoS

 

I think Brienne is Florian reborn, the Perfect Knight and the perfect Fool, and Jaime her Jonquil. She is an Outsider because of her freakish size.

Mayhaps she is Galladon reborn - not just Galldon of Morne (The Perfect Knight, whispering away, 'shoulda used the magic sword....'), but also Galladon her elder brother. That Tarth's arms are quartered also recalls motley, and as I mentioned in some other thread, her whole journey up Crackclaw was bit of a fool's errand, with a fool at the end of it.

The 'morningstar' association with fools is also a good one, folks, I hadn't really focused on the fools around that particular weapon before...

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, Seams said:

This and your subsequent post are fantastic! I'm so glad to learn about these sources of inspiration for GRRM's fools.

One part that is completely new to me is this fool with a flower, about to fall off a cliff. At the luncheon with Margaery and her attendants, Lady Olenna tells Sansa that her husband, Luthor Tyrell, died in a hawking accident when he didn't notice where he was going and rode off a cliff. And Olenna's grandson, Ser Loras, is the guy who carries around a flower everywhere. In keeping with the morningstar symbolism I mentioned in an earlier comment, he is also defeated in the Bitterbridge melee by Brienne, who uses a morningstar as her weapon. So the connection between Florian and the Knight of Flowers becomes clearer, if not entirely translucent. I would not have looked for a strong link between Ser Loras and fools, but the Tyrell link to fools does seem to be growing as this thread evolves.

Olenna herself was born a Redwyne, of course, with grapes as her family sigil.

Recent exploration of the Rainbow Guard symbolism also leads me to take special note of the crystal you mention in connection to the fool. (There are also singers, flowers and birds strongly associated with Rainbow Guard members, their histories, sigils, etc.) The motley that Tyrion and Septa Mordane make for Tyrion on board the Shy Maid contains seven colors. I had assumed that this represented the seven kingdoms, but my new fascination with rainbows leads me to think the connection to the Rainbow Guard and the Faith of the Seven is a closer fit. Your description of the crystal worn by the fool may confirm this.

A Rainbow Guard allusion (through the crystal and the rainbow halo) would be further evidence of a fool / Ser Loras link and might also tie into Brienne's strong connection to the Galladon of Morne / Florian and Jonquil imagery. The tourney at Ashford Meadow and the Hand's tourney include a number of the Rainbow Guard members or their ancestors as participants. I am guessing that an upcoming Vale gathering will tie into these two earlier tourneys, as a number of participants overlap with names we are seeing in Sansa / Alayne chapters in ADwD. So the "Fool - Knight" symbolism and the "rainbow" motif may come to a head - and the connections between the two motifs may become clearer - early in the next book.

So cool. Thanks for the background!

Yes, yes, very nice and accurate points!

While Tyrion leans heavily on the Crowley fool, Loras and Tyrells lean heavily to the Waite fool, and Florian archetype.

Also singers and fools/jesters switch within teams. If a singer is killed or leaves, then he's replaced with a fool or a fool is introduced to us instead, and vice versa.

• As Arya kills the deserter Dareon in Braavos, Patchface arrives at Castle Black.
• Sansa gets Dontos on her team, claiming to be her Florian. She annointed him fool to save his life, when he was stark naked and stupidly drunk at a tourney. He's killed with arrows (the bear way) and in the next chapter she's assaulted by Marillion. It's unclear whether Marillion is truly dead and if so who replaced him as the fool. Mord is featured several chapters later, but he stays at the Eyrie last. Sweetrobin might be regarded a fool. Possibly the vagueness about a replacement for the singer gone missing, gives credence to the argument that Marillion still lives and sings.
• Lots of switches at KL for the king: a singer is killed for a bawdy song about Robert, Moonboy is presented.
• Butterbumps is a jester AND a singer. So, he's not likely to be soon replaced.
• Tyrion was Shae's "fool" and jealously guarding his position with her. When he discovered Symon Silver Tongue in Shae's mansion and getting her attention, and Symon blackmailed Tyrion to put him on the singer list of the Purple Wedding, he had him become a bowl of brown.
• Though Tyrion has been removed from team Aegon, there hasn't been a singer replacement yet it seems. This might be, because Tyrion still hoped to rejoin them after being kidnapped, and still hopes Aegon will make a stink in Westeros and help take down Cersei.

 

[sweetsunray]

40 minutes ago, Seams said:

But Tyrion's fortunes may change when the Widow of the Waterfront puts him together with his would-be assassin Penny - the name of a coin - who offers to teach him how to stay safe as a little person by being a fool. He takes on the role of her brother coin - Groat - and learns some new survival skills.

What happens if he tosses Penny away or offers her to someone else for his own advantage.

Tyrion has had many moments of potential stabilisation, but he never does... In fact, that is exacdtly what the Crowley fool symbolizes: potential for demonic evil and sainthood but switching between both. The fool stands for potential and potency, but to achieve it one need to be the "world dancer" at the other end of the major arcana.