Bastards Known and Supposed and Their Place in Society Depending on Culture

[Corvo the Crow]

Before starting, I must say that title needs working on so I am open for suggestions.

 

How are bastards treated depending on where they are (or where their parents are from) and examples of it.

 

North:

-Jon is raised by his noble father among his siblings.

-Hornwood bastard is taken on as a ward by Glovers.

-Ramsay was acknowledged by Roose but was kept as a secret until Domeric's death, after that he was acknowledged openly.

Vale/Stormlands: Mya was acknowledged by Robert and he wanted to bring her to King's Landing after he became king. Cersei threatened Robert so she became part of the Arryn household.

 

Who are some other known and supposed bastards and what is their place in the society?

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I have to say that the bastards in the story are one of my favorite things. So thank you for this topic. 

Aurane Waters - The Bastard of Driftmark - I'm assuming he was raised alongside Monford Velaryon, at the very least, we know he was a participant in the Battle of Blackwater and must have commanded one of the 4 Velaryon ships that were named in the story. Cersei named him master of ships, so he was rising high. But I think he was informed well enough on the things going on elsewhere that he might have been planning his escape and theft of the ships long before Cersei was arrested. 

Rolland Storm - The Bastard of Nightsong - I'm assuming that he supported Renly as Bryce Caron had and then went over to Stannis after his half-brother went over to Stannis. Stannis named that Rolland Storm as a person he trusted. I actually have questions about him. Bryce Caron had no heirs and he would have been the last of the male line, yet he joined Renly's Rainbow Guard, so I do wonder if he wasn't looking to have his half-brother legitimized and take over Nightsong.

Edric Storm - Robert's acknowledged bastard. His escape from Dragonstone is very reminiscent of Viserys and Dany's own escape from Stannis when Dragonstone fell. I'm assuming he will be legitimized at some point and given Storm's End. 

The Sand Snakes - The relationship of the Sand Snakes with Arianne for instance, remind me a lot of the relationship that existed between Jon and Robb, Jon and Arya. 

[Bernie Mac]

43 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Vale/Stormlands: Mya was acknowledged by Robert and he wanted to bring her to King's Landing after he became king.

Mya was never acknowledged. Being acknowledged in this sense is publicly declaring the child your own and, in most cases, providing for it. 

Brune would be a good match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone, she thought. It might be different if her father had acknowledged her, but he never did.

Mya is a goat herder, had her father acknowledged her she would have been educated, treated with the respect and dignity that a daughter of a great lord would respect rather than be classed as a peasant. 

 

Being an acknowledged noble bastard still means that person is incredibly privileged and part of the 1%, they may not be able to inherit but they can still rise to become the Hand of the King, sit on the Small Council or command the Kingssguard, they are also used in high ranking positions based on their ability, much like any younger son, and we see men like Sam Stone rise to positions of power and influence. 

[Lord Varys]

As to the general question:

Most bastards would be literally nobody because they would not even be acknowledged by their fathers. You don't have to do that, so most noblemen would only do it if they had an incentive to do so, or were forced to do so - like Robert was with Edric Storm, the only bastard he ever acknowledged when he was king.

Most bastards who were baseborn on their mother's side would also not have a great place in life. Once they were acknowledged they might continue to live with their common kin, while getting some sort of monetary support - and perhaps some house and a piece of land - by their noble or royal fathers.

Only a very small fraction of bastards would be raised at their father's castle, and even fewer would be treated as proper children.

But as @Widow's Watch has pointed out, there are the bastards of Driftmark and Nightsong, so the whole Stark thing of raising a bastard at your castle is hardly exclusive. One assumes bastards were mostly treated in a more favorable manner when they were of some use - perhaps, because the family needed men to support them, or take charge, etc.

When a man had no trueborn heirs bastards can stand in as potential successors.

But aside from that, they really don't play all that much of a role.

As to Bryce Caron:

The man was still lord while he served in the Rainbow Guard, making it very likely that King Renly didn't demand that its members gave up their lands or remained unmarried. After all, he even allowed a woman to join their rank, something that would be utterly impossible for the Kingsguard, even now.

In that sense the chances aren't very high that Rolland Storm was Lord Bryce's heir or anything of that sort.

Not to mention that we have no idea whether Bryce had any close trueborn kin - perhaps no siblings but some cousins. Rolland only becomes pretender to Nightsong because he is with Stannis, and Stannis needs all the help he can get (and promises everybody who declares for him pretty much anything).

[Lord Varys]

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Mya was never acknowledged. Being acknowledged in this sense is publicly declaring the child your own and, in most cases, providing for it. 

Mya is a strange case in the sense that people know she is a noble bastard, as is evident that she is a Stone, and not just Mya.

But it is correct that Lord (and later) King Robert never properly acknowledged her. He spent time with her when she was little, much longer than he cared for her mother, but he apparently never publicly declared her his daughter.

Although it seems that it is an open secret among the more informed circles in the Vale who she actually is - although she herself is unaware of who her father is.

She is also not part of the Arryn household. She is a servant in service of Nestor Royce, which is a much less prestigious position than she would have had if she was actually in the household of Lord Robert.

The only bastard of Robert who knows who he actually is is Edric Storm.

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Brune would be a good match for a bastard girl like Mya Stone, she thought. It might be different if her father had acknowledged her, but he never did.

Mya is a goat herder, had her father acknowledged her she would have been educated, treated with the respect and dignity that a daughter of a great lord would respect rather than be classed as a peasant. 

See above. Not necessarily. She may have gotten some property and an income, perhaps even some servants and decent match (some knight's son, perhaps). But education? Not very likely. 

Still, if Robert had continued to care for her the way he apparently did once (and wanted to continue to do) she could have risen pretty high. She is King Robert's oldest child, after all.

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Being an acknowledged noble bastard still means that person is incredibly privileged and part of the 1%, they may not be able to inherit but they can still rise to become the Hand of the King, sit on the Small Council or command the Kingssguard, they are also used in high ranking positions based on their ability, much like any younger son, and we see men like Sam Stone rise to positions of power and influence. 

Only a tiny fraction of the acknowledged bastards rise so high. Not many of them do. The Targaryen bastards are all non-entities aside from the legitimized great bastards of Aegon the Unworthy. They could just as well not exist. But they did. Aegon II had two acknowledged bastards before the Dance, both of which apparently never rose to any prominence.

King Aenys may have had bastards, too, as might have Viserys II, Maekar, possibly even Aegon V (if he ever ends up having sex with some commoner before he ends up marrying Betha). And, of course, Aerys II. Not to mention princes like promiscuous Daeron the Drunk, Aerion Brightflame, Aemond (who at least impregnated Alys Rivers), and so on.

[hiemal]

Daemon Sand. The Bastard of Godsgrace seems like he may have an important role to play, but the Dornish attitude towards bastards is pretty lenient.

Cotter Pyke on the Wall, although being Ironborn seems to weigh more heavily against him that his parents marital status. The Night's Watch is known for taking in thieves, rapists, and bastards, after all and the Ironborn themselves pretty much celebrate it with the concept of salt wives and thralls.

Also on the Wall, one of Benjen's men who becomes a Wight is a Flowers from the Reach.

And of course, we can't forget the Great Bastards of Aegon IV. Particularly the love triangle of Bittersteel, Bloodraven, and Shiera Seastar. They seem to have played by their own rules even before Aegon's writ of legitimacy.

Robert's bastard twins who were supposedly strangled soon after birth at the Rock interest me.

The question that most interests me about bastards and bastardry is are the people of Westeros correct in thinking that bastard's blood is tainted? It seems "obvious" to me that their attitude is nothing but prejudice, but what if...?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Mya is a goat herder

Small point, but she's in charge of the mules that ferry people to the Eyrie. I don't think she has much to do with goats.

I think the best example of how bastards are viewed is given by Hyle Hunt. He tries to see his daughter and gets a pot of soup dumped on his head by her mother, and didn't seem too bothered. Robert essentially behaved the same way to Myra. Basically, noble men who sire bastards tend to act like dead beat dads in our own world. 

Except Ned. The poor lovely stupid bugger.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Daemon Sand. The Bastard of Godsgrace seems like he may have an important role to play, but the Dornish attitude towards bastards is pretty lenient.

They are more visible there and they are not condemned for their very existence, that's it. It is still pretty clear that nobles of good breeding to not marry bastards. Oberyn did not marry Ellaria, nor did Arianne Martell ever consider to marry the bastard Daemon Sand. That would be impossible.

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Cotter Pyke on the Wall, although being Ironborn seems to weigh more heavily against him that his parents marital status. The Night's Watch is known for taking in thieves, rapists, and bastards, after all.

Bastard can rise high at the Wall - but pretty much nowhere else. Any other bastards rising high rise high not by merit but because their family and relations allow them to rise.

A man like Bloodraven didn't rise as high as he did because of merit but because his royal half-brother and nephew(s) decided to shower him with favors. They could also have decided to give him a small keep and an insignificant title and keep him out of sight after the Redgrass Field.

Even as exceptional a man like Benedict Rivers only rose as high as he did because the families of his parents supported him.

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Robert's bastard twins who were supposedly strangled soon after birth at the Rock interest me.

I don't think those twins actually did exist. Our only source is Littlefinger, and he was slandering Cersei there. If Cersei actually had arranged something like that it is curious that we don't know anything about it. Jaime and Tyrion should both know about it.

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The question that most interests me about bastards and bastardry is are the people of Westeros correct in thinking that bastard's blood is tainted? It seems "obvious" to me that their attitude is nothing but prejudice, but what if...?

It is obviously nonsense.

However, George plays with the whole notion that bastards do indeed grow quicker than 'normal children'. There are hints that this might actually be 'true', not only with Joff being taller (and possibly even stronger) than Robb and Jon in AGoT, and even to a stronger degree with Rhaenyra's 'strong' sons being able to attack and sort of hold their own against Aemond despite the age gap.

[TMIFairy]

9 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Basically, noble men who sire bastards tend to act like dead beat dads in our own world. 

Except Ned. The poor lovely stupid bugger.

Ronnet Connington - is raising Ronald Storm alongside his younger siblings (Ronnet's siblings, not Ronald's).

Garth Tyrell - he keeps his two grown bastard sons - Garth and Garret - around. They accompany him to KL where he was aiming at a high position at Court. Which kills some "Ned could not take Jon to KL" theories, I think ...

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A man like Bloodraven didn't rise as high as he did because of merit but because his royal half-brother and nephew(s) decided to shower him with favors. They could also have decided to give him a small keep and an insignificant title and keep him out of sight after the Redgrass Field

Added to that, Aegon the Unworthy had an unconventional approach to say the least. His highborn mistresses were treated like queens, and their children like royalty. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

Ronnet Connington - is raising Ronald Storm alongside his younger siblings (Ronnet's siblings, not Ronald's).

Garth Tyrell - he keeps his two grown bastard sons - Garth and Garret - around. They accompany him to KL where he was aiming at a high position at Court. Which kills some "Ned could not take Jon to KL" theories, I think ...

I don't think any of that contradicts what I said.

There are plenty of examples of lords acknowledging bastards and looking after them, of course. Clearly there is no one-size-fits-all approach. Such is life.

Bastards are despised though, and have a hard time in noble company. Jon would have been miserable in Kings Landing.

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Robert essentially behaved the same way to Myra. Basically, noble men who sire bastards tend to act like dead beat dads in our own world. 

I don't think Hyles acknowledged his daughter either, or it may well be that he is barely nobility himself that him acknowledging her does not mean anything without the means to provide for her. Robert, even before he was King, had the means to acknowledge and provide for all his bastards, he has chosen not to. 

And while Robert's treatment might not be uncommon I also don't think it is the norm. Look at the Frey bastards, raised and educated as nobles, even take part in expensive tourneys on their father's dime and we know that Walder River's wife is a noble from House Charlton. 

There is also Joy Hill, taken from her mother and raised at the Rock while she can expect a decent marriage. 

Lord Bracken seems to have adored his bastard son (even with claims that he is not his own) and I'm guessing he had been raised in a manner more similar to Jon and the Freys than Mya and the majority of her unfortunate siblings. 

 

6 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Except Ned. The poor lovely stupid bugger.

Well Ned and many others. It depends on the father and perhaps their level of nobility, someone on the fringes of nobility may not even have the ability to provide for a bastard so acknowledging them would seem pointless. 

[TMIFairy]

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't think any of that contradicts what I said.

There are plenty of examples of lords acknowledging bastards and looking after them, of course.

I misunderstood your post, then.

Sorry

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

24 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The question that most interests me about bastards and bastardry is are the people of Westeros correct in thinking that bastard's blood is tainted? It seems "obvious" to me that their attitude is nothing but prejudice, but what if...?

But this is something that came from the Seven, wasn't it? That it would have devolved into something more isn't really surprising because that's what tends to happen with religion. And there are plenty non-bastards in the story who are vile.

As far as Dorne being more "lenient" with bastards, this is what we are told, but the bastards we encounter there have no step-mothers. Oberyn never married (and he's a second son), so his daughters did not grown up with that shadow looming over them. Daemon Sand's father is married, but that's a fairly young marriage. The rumors around Ellaria herself was that she was close to becoming a prostitute when Oberyn found her, so who knows how she was treated by her father, or perhaps how much influence her step-mother had on her father that it may have come to this. 

Other bastards - There's Joy Hill and Wex Pyke and the Frey bastards.

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

Bastards are despised though, and have a hard time in noble company. Jon would have been miserable in Kings Landing.

That seems to be an exaggeration. As pointed out Garth was bringing his two sons to the capital, the Bastard of Driftmark sat on the Small Council and was by no means the first to do so. 

Acknowledged bastards may well be below their legitimate siblings but they are still nobles and above the commoners. And someone like Jon, the acknowledged bastard of the ruler of the North is going to be of a higher rank than many nobles. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I don't think Hyles acknowledged his daughter either, or it may well be that he is barely nobility himself that him acknowledging her does not mean anything without the means to provide for her. Robert, even before he was King, had the means to acknowledge and provide for all his bastards, he has chosen not to.

No real disagreement here. It's very unlikely that Hyle acknowledged his bastard. His attitude was decidedly "meh". Sleep around and it happens. My point was that nobles who sire bastards are generally pricks about it. That's far from a rule though.

7 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

And while Robert's treatment might not be uncommon I also don't think it is the norm. Look at the Frey bastards, raised and educated as nobles, even take part in expensive tourneys on their father's dime and we know that Walder River's wife is a noble from House Charlton. 

Walder Frey is big on family, and some of his boys take his lead. The Lannisters have a similar attitude apparently, given their approach to Joy. Whether that's the norm or not, I have no idea. 

9 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Lord Bracken seems to have adored his bastard son (even with claims that he is not his own) and I'm guessing he had been raised in a manner more similar to Jon and the Freys than Mya and the majority of her unfortunate siblings. 

He was desperate for a son.

I'm not advancing a theory here, it's obviously apparent that attitudes towards bastards depend upon the individual, their circumstances, and the society they keep.

11 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

I misunderstood your post, then.

Sorry

 

There's nothing to forgive my lord x

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

That seems to be an exaggeration. As pointed out Garth was bringing his two sons to the capital, the Bastard of Driftmark sat on the Small Council and was by no means the first to do so. 

Acknowledged bastards may well be below their legitimate siblings but they are still nobles and above the commoners. And someone like Jon, the acknowledged bastard of the ruler of the North is going to be of a higher rank than many nobles.

I don't really disagree with any of that.

But, take into account Jon's character. He was miserable enough in Winterfell, he would have been even more so in KL. If he was a flashy type who could win people to him with his charisma he would have done well at court. But he's not so he wouldn't. He's a serious young man, whose qualities come out when he gets down to serious business. Such a man is valuable on the Wall, but would be miserable at court.

[John Suburbs]

Let's also not overlook all the Rivers that populate House Frey:

Walder, whos own son Aemon, was knighted.

Melwys, who became a maester

Martyn, Ryger and Ronel, all of whom serve the house and appear to receive higher esteem than some legitimate Freys, such as Black Walder and Petyr Pimple.

Plus, various natural daughters.

Another interesting Rivers from history was Benedict, who supposedly came from houses Blackwood and Bracken. He went on to conquer much of the riverlands and crowned himself Benedict I Justman, launching a dynasty that would rule for 300 years.

So bastards can do quite well for themselves if they have enough moxy.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So bastards can do quite well for themselves if they have enough moxy.

The Citadel is, like the Church in our own world, a place where people without the right breeding can rise high. Prejudices still exist though, as Tyrion and Varys observe in ACOF.

13 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So bastards can do quite well for themselves if they have enough moxy.

'twas always thus. Talented people who face adversity can overcome it.

[LindsayLohan]

Walder Rivers seems to have more of his father's trust than the vast majority of his true-born siblings. 

Also, something I found interesting upon re-read:  The supposedly more moral, more honorable Tytos Blackwood mocks the death of Jonos Bracken's bastard, claiming the Bracken probably didn't even father the boy.  And, even as a drunken turncloak, the less moral, less honorable Jonos Bracken declines a royal fief from Jamie, and laments the loss of his bastard son.  Bracken cared for the boy.