Bastards Known and Supposed and Their Place in Society Depending on Culture

[Varysblackfyre321]

15 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't really disagree with any of that.

But, take into account Jon's character. He was miserable enough in Winterfell, he would have been even more so in KL. If he was a flashy type who could win people to him with his charisma he would have done well at court. But he's not so he wouldn't. He's a serious young man, whose qualities come out when he gets down to serious business. Such a man is valuable on the Wall, but would be miserable at court.

He can be charismatic. I feel by the time we see Jon in AGOT he was "miserable" the same way many 14 year old privledged kids get. He'd eventually have gotten over it if given a little time. Given a fewIf he's shown favor by a warden and the best friend of the king not many people are going to really bother him anymore than people bothered him at winterfell. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

44 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He can be charismatic.

My point was that he was not an extrovert. I haven't seen examples of him being charismatic as such, but he's certainly displayed leadership abilities. 

45 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I feel by the time we see Jon in AGOT he was "miserable" the same way many 14 year old privledged kids get. He'd eventually have gotten over it if given a little time.

I think he did, after he got a talking to from Donal Noye.

47 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Given a fewIf he's shown favor by a warden and the best friend of the king not many people are going to really bother him anymore than people bothered him at winterfell. 

Just like in Winterfell, he may have been treated well formally, while still looked down upon. 

[UnFit Finlay]

21 hours ago, hiemal said:

The question that most interests me about bastards and bastardry is are the people of Westeros correct in thinking that bastard's blood is tainted? It seems "obvious" to me that their attitude is nothing but prejudice, but what if...?

I'm guessing that any evidence is probably self-fulfilling. Spending your whole life being told that you are inferior and that your blood is tainted is going to cause you some pretty major self-esteem issues. For example, Falia Flowers sleeping with Euron and turning on her "family" would be used as evidence that bastard blood is tainted even though her family appear to have treated her like a slave for her entire life.

20 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That seems to be an exaggeration. As pointed out Garth was bringing his two sons to the capital, the Bastard of Driftmark sat on the Small Council and was by no means the first to do so. 

Acknowledged bastards may well be below their legitimate siblings but they are still nobles and above the commoners. And someone like Jon, the acknowledged bastard of the ruler of the North is going to be of a higher rank than many nobles. 

Garth was bringing his two bastards to court where there was a ton of other Tyrells, a family that genuinely seems to love each other no matter what anyone else thinks. They also had the political clout to cause as much offence to the Lannisters as they liked.

Aurane was there as an adult and quickly talked himself into an important job.

Jon though? What could Jon really do there? He'd be stuck in the odd middle ground where he's too noble to fit in with the commoners but not noble enough to fit in with the other nobles. People would look down on him at court, and Cersei would almost surely take offence - deliberately but if he tried to make friends down in flea bottom then it'd be an embarrassment to his father. He could join the Gold Cloaks but then how could he truly be one of them when his father is Hand of The King?

Most likely he'd just end up hanging about with Arya - but not Sansa  and generally being miserable.

[LindsayLohan]

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I'm guessing that any evidence is probably self-fulfilling. Spending your whole life being told that you are inferior and that your blood is tainted is going to cause you some pretty major self-esteem issues. For example, Falia Flowers sleeping with Euron and turning on her "family" would be used as evidence that bastard blood is tainted even though her family appear to have treated her like a slave for her entire life.

Garth was bringing his two bastards to court where there was a ton of other Tyrells, a family that genuinely seems to love each other no matter what anyone else thinks. They also had the political clout to cause as much offence to the Lannisters as they liked.

Aurane was there as an adult and quickly talked himself into an important job.

Jon though? What could Jon really do there? He'd be stuck in the odd middle ground where he's too noble to fit in with the commoners but not noble enough to fit in with the other nobles. People would look down on him at court, and Cersei would almost surely take offence - deliberately but if he tried to make friends down in flea bottom then it'd be an embarrassment to his father. He could join the Gold Cloaks but then how could he truly be one of them when his father is Hand of The King?

Most likely he'd just end up hanging about with Arya - but not Sansa  and generally being miserable.

I think, at Jon's age, he would most likely be serving as one of his father's pages, or part of the Stark household guard.

[TPTWP Timett]

3 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I think, at Jon's age, he would most likely be serving as one of his father's pages, or part of the Stark household guard.

That's what I always thought maybe even serving as his sister's personal guard. Imagine who all he could have trained with in the yard and if he could've made a few southern friends it could only help the Starks. Sure Cersei won't like it and Jon's maybe not the best for the job, but joining such a strict order so young is no minor sacrifice in itself.

[Varysblackfyre321]

18 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

My point was that he was not an extrovert. I haven't seen examples of him being charismatic as such, but he's certainly displayed leadership abilities

No he's not an extrovert like Robert or Renly. But he he does have charisma. He's able to

secure Sam's safety as much through persuasion as he did through sheer threats, we're shown him delegating with the wildlings, with a lot of sucess, he knew how Stannis could garner support from the north.

18 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think he did, after he got a talking to from Donal Noye.

Meh, I place it more when he hears Sam's story. Though not as strong initially, he still until he hears Sam's story comes across as though his life was "hard" by mere fact of being the bastard of Eddard stark. Not as hard as say some of the commoners who joined the watch but still hard. 

18 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Just like in Winterfell, he may have been treated well formally, while still looked down upon. 

Not really. Most people at Winterfell saw Jon as the of Eddard Stark in winterfell. Most people who inhabit the homestead of the Starks would not be of proper social status to look down upon Jon. In any case I don't imagine Jon being noticeably more emo at court than he was at Winterfell.

[Jaak]

On 31.3.2018 at 9:18 PM, UnFit Finlay said:

Jon though? What could Jon really do there? He'd be stuck in the odd middle ground where he's too noble to fit in with the commoners but not noble enough to fit in with the other nobles.

Would petty household nobles, like Pooles, Cassels et cetera look up on Jon (as a Stark), look down on him (as a bastard while Pooles and Cassels were at least trueborn) or accept him for equal and be willing to mix on equal terms?

[Lord Varys]

43 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Would petty household nobles, like Pooles, Cassels et cetera look up on Jon (as a Stark), look down on him (as a bastard while Pooles and Cassels were at least trueborn) or accept him for equal and be willing to mix on equal terms?

That depends on how he would be treated by the real Starks. When Ned and Robb shower Jon with gifts - like Aegon IV did with Daemon Waters - then people will take note and view as more than just a bastard.

But those who don't like him - and who don't want to carry his favor - will remind him constantly that he is, in the end, just a bastard. A bastard with pretty trinkets, land, and perhaps even titles, but a bastard all the same.

And in the end that doesn't go away even if they are legitimized. Brynden Rivers is still Brynden Rivers, despite the fact that King Aegon's decree should have made him Prince Brynden Targaryen (just as it should have created Prince Daemon Targaryen, Prince Aegor Targaryen, Princess Shiera Targaryen, etc.).

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On 04/04/2018 at 10:46 AM, Lord Varys said:

Brynden Rivers is still Brynden Rivers, despite the fact that King Aegon's decree should have made him Prince Brynden Targaryen (just as it should have created Prince Daemon Targaryen, Prince Aegor Targaryen, Princess Shiera Targaryen, etc.).

I thought Brynden Rivers keeping the bastard name was part of his keeping allegiance with the Targaryen line. Daemon took Blackfyre as his surname, and I'm guessing you might want to do something that if you're legitimised, particularly if you start a rival line. 

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I thought Brynden Rivers keeping the bastard name was part of his keeping allegiance with the Targaryen line. Daemon took Blackfyre as his surname, and I'm guessing you might want to do something that if you're legitimised, particularly if you start a rival line. 

Daemon called himself Blackfyre before he was legitimized. He took that name for himself when his royal father gave him Blackfyre.

It is certainly possible that Bloodraven chose to go by his bastard name to publicly show humility, etc. but it is still odd. Addam and Alyn of Hull became Addam Velaryon and Alyn Velaryon after they were legitimized, just as Stannis Baratheon offered Jon Snow to legitimize him as Jon Stark.

If Aegon IV's legitimization decree had any teeth then his acknowledged children should all have earned the right to call themselves Targaryen afterwards, and a man like Bloodraven should actually have deserved that honor. After all, he helped to save King Daeron's ass, and he served his two of his royal nephews as Hand of the King.

Considering his prominence in the history of Wester - and the apparent habit of noblemen to name their children after him, back in the day - Lord Rivers/Bloodraven should be remembered as Prince Brynden Targaryen, not by the bastard name of Rivers.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Daemon called himself Blackfyre before he was legitimized. He took that name for himself when his royal father gave him Blackfyre.

Ah. Fair.

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering his prominence in the history of Wester - and the apparent habit of noblemen to name their children after him, back in the day - Lord Rivers/Bloodraven should be remembered as Prince Brynden Targaryen, not by the bastard name of Rivers.

True, which is why I thought it was a public repudiation of his father's decree and a gesture of support for the king.

Also, it may just be a sign of the dislike he's viewed in. We see similar instances with people calling Ramsay a Snow. It's a way of doing people down even after they're legitimised. I get the impression that the high born still look down their noses at bastards whatever the king has decreed. 

[TMIFairy]

On 4.04.2018 at 10:58 AM, Jaak said:

Would petty household nobles, like Pooles, Cassels et cetera look up on Jon (as a Stark), look down on him (as a bastard while Pooles and Cassels were at least trueborn) or accept him for equal and be willing to mix on equal terms?

In Jon Snow's case - IMO look up.