Sansa retakes the North

[Springwatch]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

King’s Landing is going to be constant warfare with Aegon, Euron, Cersei vs Tyrells and High Sparrow, Dany and her dragons, Sand Snakes, I'm probably forgetting someone. Bloody mess. Literally. And only 2 books left. I recall GRRM saying a number of people will be sitting the IT before all is said and done. The King’s Landing we’ve seen in the past books has its days numbered.

Don’t see a place for Sansa (and a number of other characters) among all of this.

This is the problem. If you're a thirteen year old girl, then it doesn't matter how clever and wise you are, or even who your father was. Powerful men and their armies don't listen to thirteen year old girls. They just don't. And all their attention will be on the other armies, on the corsairs, and the dragons etc. Sansa can't help them there.

There needs to be a game changer.

On 04/04/2018 at 8:26 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

Dragons aren't super useful in the ice on an average day.  They aren't going to "turn things around" necessarily.  But if you have a trained dragon and you're standing at the mouth of a frozen river?!?!   You have the ability to get a floatila of ships up that waterway in the deep of winter when it should be impossible by anyone else's tactical thinking.  Unfreezing rivers, like deploying ice busting equipment right in front of the ships.   There's a five star dragon app.   

This is great, by the way.

On 04/04/2018 at 8:26 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

(There is that rare contingent of fans who see a future where Sansa enjoys ridership of such a beast, pre-softened by Bran's inter- mentalizing.)

A whole contingent! That would be wonderful. It's the theory that started me posting here - a game changer for Sansa. I still like it, but the dragon isn't essential to get Sansa's voice heard - there are a few exceptional people who might listen anyway, and, to answer the OP's question, these are the people she'll be negotiating with.

• Dany. Dany could deal with a lot of wights by turning the north and its forests into an inferno. The living inhabitants would all die too of course - Sansa could plead for them.
• Tyrion. Tyrion has promised to torch the Vale, and sometimes he seems mad enough to do it. He has also promised never to hurt Sansa though, so she could plead for the Vale.
• Tyrion + dragon. If Sansa's really unlucky, she might have to soothe an angry dragon as well as an angry Tyrion. Anyway, both Tyrion and a dragon are both foreshadowed at Winterfell (Tyrion by the lion gargoyles, and the dragon by Summer's vision).
• Family. Bran, Arya, Jon, Cat. The reunion's going to be awkward.
• Assorted heroes, but the armies will have to retreat southwards.
• The thing (whatever it is) that thinks there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. This is tinfoil, but it is a fact that Sansa is sending her warg-powered prayers out into the northern winter, and I think she may get a bit of a shock when something answers. I doubt it will be pretty.

[Nevets]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This is the problem. If you're a thirteen year old girl, then it doesn't matter how clever and wise you are, or even who your father was. Powerful men and their armies don't listen to thirteen year old girls. They just don't. And all their attention will be on the other armies, on the corsairs, and the dragons etc. Sansa can't help them there.

There needs to be a game changer.

I think the game changer will be the invasion of the Others.  As a prominent and well-liked Northerner, she would be in an excellent position to rally support for helping the North in its fight.  And the Vale has one of the few armies that isn't banged up, and the only one in a good position to help.  I think George is setting Sansa up to me a major player, and this is one way she could do so.

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The northerners don't blame the girls for their unwanted husbands. In fact, they have way of dealing with unwanted husbands.

I have nothing to contribute to that.

I did see the quote you supplied.

The quote you supplied came when Stannis’ people where yapping about taking WF. It is revealed later that Karstark is a Bolton lackey and Stannis takes Karstark into custody.  Earlier Karstark tried to lure Stannis into attacking the Dreadfort. LC Snow gave Stannis advice to do otherwise.

In case individuals are interested I supply the book and chapter the quote comes from so that those who are interested can easily browse for themselves.

A Dance with Dragons - The Sacrifice      "You will not take Winterfell!"    "Aye, we will," came a cackle from the high table, where Arnolf Karstark sat with his son Arthor and three grandsons. Lord Arnolf shoved himself up, a vulture rising from its prey. One spotted hand clutched at his son's shoulder for support. "We'll take it for the Ned and for his daughter. Aye, and for the Young Wolf too, him who was so cruelly slaughtered. Me and mine will show the way, if need be. I've said as much to His Good Grace the king. March, I said, and before the moon can turn, we'll all be bathing in the blood of Freys and Boltons."

Context is important.

On 4/5/2018 at 6:24 PM, Nevets said:

The Vale army isn't going to go up the Kingsroad.  The road from the Vale to the Kingsroad is closed due to snow, and won't be opening any time soon.  

Thanks for posting that. Bare with me and my humor --- even if you went out of the way to provide textual evidence ---- iffin it don't sit well with other individuals mind set it will be ignored as exhibited in the above.  Cheers and sally forth. For some reason the emoji menu is not working for me.

[Lollygag]

GRRM grew up in New Jersey and has been through Chicago winters. He knows how winter works . Now the Others and Bran are another matter...

 

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I did see the quote you supplied.

The quote you supplied came when Stannis’ people where yapping about taking WF. It is revealed later that Karstark is a Bolton lackey and Stannis takes Karstark into custody.  Earlier Karstark tried to lure Stannis into attacking the Dreadfort. LC Snow gave Stannis advice to do otherwise.

But don't you see that's irrelevant? Arnolf is speaking here as a Stark loyalist in a camp of Stark loyalists. He knows how they think. He knows the right thing to say.

The quote is there to show the northern lords reaction to a Stark daughter's marriage to a man they hate. If you don't like that quote, there are others -

in Winterfell:

Quote

[Lady B] "... What do you think passes through their heads when they hear the new bride weeping? Valiant Ned's precious little girl."

ADWD

and outside:

Quote

But the wolves insisted; Roose Bolton could not be suffered to hold Winterfell, and the Ned's girl must be rescued from the clutches of his bastard. So said Morgan Liddle, Brandon Norrey, Big Bucket Wull, the Flints, even the She-Bear.

...

[Wull] "Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow.... Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

ADWD

Always, 'Ned's girl' - they don't draw a line between Sansa and Arya. The chances of Sansa being identified and rejected as 'Lady Lannister' are exactly zero.

[chrisdaw]

TWOW is going to bring book burnings by Sansa fans. The arc is pawn to player, naïve to jaded, sweet wide eyed innocent doe to bitter venomous sneaky snake bitch. Cersei with utter competence. HsssssssssHsssssssss. Her downfall will only be Jaime, because he's seen it all before in Cersei, and Jon, because hearts of ice can not be seduced. 

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But don't you see that's irrelevant? Arnolf is speaking here as a Stark loyalist in a camp of Stark loyalists. He knows how they think. He knows the right thing to say.

The quote is there to show the northern lords reaction to a Stark daughter's marriage to a man they hate. If you don't like that quote, there are others -

in Winterfell:

and outside:

Always, 'Ned's girl' - they don't draw a line between Sansa and Arya. The chances of Sansa being identified and rejected as 'Lady Lannister' are exactly zero.

Think of me as one of the people who does not think Sansa will retake WF. There are plenty of people who know more about the Vale situation and politics than I.

What’s going on at WF is different than what is happening in the Vale.

When I try to think and type about the overall story I try to keep in mind that the Iron Throne is the seat of Westeros government. The Lannister/Baratheon crown considers those that do not comply as rebels against the throne.

LF is in the position he is for a number of reasons. One is Lysa was in love with him and he was able to lead Lysa around by the nose. His reward for marrying Lysa was lands and titles given to him by the person who rule Westeros. I don’t know what LF’s agenda is but LF looks out for his own best interest. I think he is feeding Sansa a bunch of horse pucky.

Sansa may very well end up back at WF in spring. Martin has his characters in place. If martin plans on completing the story in two more books he will need to merge the competing factions. People in the story are going to die as collateral damage or fighting for what they believe.

The strength behind Lannister/Baratheon was Tywin. Twyin is dead.  So is Kevin.

Most of the Houses south of the Neck are not interested in what is happening north of the Neck.

Stannis wants to woe the northmen to his cause by taking WF from the Warden of the North and rescuing Ned’s girl. Stannis now has Ned’s girl and Theon. Theon knows the truth of what happened. (Will he talk? If he does talk will he be believed?) With Jeyne who plays the part of Arya out of WF it leaves the Stark loyalist inside and outside the walls of WF free act.

The Vale situation and the WF situation have different variables.

My hope was that Sansa would eventually out smart LF. Now, I am not sure that will happen. Maybe in spring LF will fly out the moon door. Maybe I’m focusing on the wrong thing --- -Sansa Stark Lannister is a fugitive. She is believed to have participated in the plan to kill King Joffrey. She also lied about how Lysa died. Sansa, with good reason, is pretending to be the daughter of LF. The Vale lords are not happy with LF.

That’s my view, limited as may be. Yes, I have favorite story characters and wishes as to what is going to happen. I am not invested in who wins or loses the game of thrones. I merely want to know what happens to the characters and how martin resolves the story.          BUT if martin kills off Ghost I will throw the book out the door. Then later I’ll go outside pick it up, go back inside the house and finish reading it.

 

[Lollygag]

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

TWOW is going to bring book burnings by Sansa fans. The arc is pawn to player, naïve to jaded, sweet wide eyed innocent doe to bitter venomous sneaky snake bitch. Cersei with utter competence. HsssssssssHsssssssss. Her downfall will only be Jaime, because he's seen it all before in Cersei, and Jon, because hearts of ice can not be seduced. 

This is completely unbelievable in a 15 year old which is probably how old Sansa will be at the end of the series. Both her mega-fans and her haters give her way too much credit either way.

And if she hasn't turned bitter and venomous yet, I can't imagine what could do that. Lots of other characters fill that role so adding another who's shown a tremendous resistance to bitterness doesn't make much sense.

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Think of me as one of the people who does not think Sansa will retake WF. There are plenty of people who know more about the Vale situation and politics than I.

What’s going on at WF is different than what is happening in the Vale....

I agree with a lot of this. Littlefinger has dangled Winterfell in front of Sansa before. He didn't mean it last time, and I don't think he does now. He won't take her out of the Vale, and she can't manage it alone - something must force them out. I think this fugitive-from-justice line has some distance to run.

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

TWOW is going to bring book burnings by Sansa fans. The arc is pawn to player, naïve to jaded, sweet wide eyed innocent doe to bitter venomous sneaky snake bitch. Cersei with utter competence. HsssssssssHsssssssss. Her downfall will only be Jaime, because he's seen it all before in Cersei, and Jon, because hearts of ice can not be seduced. 

Sansa has already created her alter-ego as Alayne, Littlefinger's daughter. Alayne's pretty decent, usually. She can be ruthlessly hard-headed, for example giving SR sweetsleep so he doesn't lose the respect of his lords, but risking his health to do so. I think Alayne is as far as it goes, and arguably she tries to act for the greater good. And so far at least, Sansa can keep her own thoughts and values separate from 'Alayne'.

I have to admit the charm of the word 'competence' though. There will be competence. Life's getting too dangerous for clumsiness.

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

This is completely unbelievable in a 15 year old which is probably how old Sansa will be at the end of the series. Both her mega-fans and her haters give her way too much credit either way.

And if she hasn't turned bitter and venomous yet, I can't imagine what could do that. Lots of other characters fill that role so adding another who's shown a tremendous resistance to bitterness doesn't make much sense.

This is it! We don't need a new Cersei, because we already have one. We don't need a new Littlefinger, a new Dany, or a new Arya. Sansa is a kind of hero we've not seen before (like Sam the Slayer is a kind of hero I'd not seen before). She's going to take on the horrors of war and winter with the superpower of asking nicely for things. Seriously. It's not the superpower I would choose personally, but that's what she's got - she's the 'words' to Arya's 'swords'.

Ned Stark's daughters == Ned Stark's steel.

[Nevets]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

TWOW is going to bring book burnings by Sansa fans. The arc is pawn to player, naïve to jaded, sweet wide eyed innocent doe to bitter venomous sneaky snake bitch. Cersei with utter competence. HsssssssssHsssssssss. Her downfall will only be Jaime, because he's seen it all before in Cersei, and Jon, because hearts of ice can not be seduced. 

 

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

This is completely unbelievable in a 15 year old which is probably how old Sansa will be at the end of the series. Both her mega-fans and her haters give her way too much credit either way.

And if she hasn't turned bitter and venomous yet, I can't imagine what could do that. Lots of other characters fill that role so adding another who's shown a tremendous resistance to bitterness doesn't make much sense.

If watching her father get beheaded, being tormented by Joffrey (who beheaded her father), forced to marry Tyrion, and being framed for the murder of Joffrey hasn't made her bitter and venomous (and it hasn't), I cannot imagine what possibly would.

15 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This is it! We don't need a new Cersei, because we already have one. We don't need a new Littlefinger, a new Dany, or a new Arya. Sansa is a kind of hero we've not seen before (like Sam the Slayer is a kind of hero I'd not seen before). She's going to take on the horrors of war and winter with the superpower of asking nicely for things. Seriously. It's not the superpower I would choose personally, but that's what she's got - she's the 'words' to Arya's 'swords'.

Ned Stark's daughters == Ned Stark's steel.

Her superpower will be that people will actually want to help her.  Up to a point, that is.  I still can't quite see the Vale invading the North for her, although if the Others attack, as I think they will, I can easily see her persuading the Vale to send help.

[Mladen]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

TWOW is going to bring book burnings by Sansa fans. The arc is pawn to player, naïve to jaded, sweet wide eyed innocent doe to bitter venomous sneaky snake bitch. Cersei with utter competence. HsssssssssHsssssssss. Her downfall will only be Jaime, because he's seen it all before in Cersei, and Jon, because hearts of ice can not be seduced. 

Well, we do know enough to make your first line completely incorrect. I think that Sansa is going to grow up. Most  certainly she will do things that are in moral grey area, just like the rest of Stark pack. Will she turn into Cersei? No. Because Sansa is inherently different person from Cersei. Cersei was Cersei in Sansa's age too and Sansa is not Cersei. 

 

1 hour ago, Nevets said:

Her superpower will be that people will actually want to help her.  Up to a point, that is.  I still can't quite see the Vale invading the North for her, although if the Others attack, as I think they will, I can easily see her persuading the Vale to send help.

I think her superpower will be food. Point has already been made that Vale's storages are full of food, so one can only suppose that it will get into play sooner rather than later. I also see her going to North. Will it be with Vale army or not, that remains to be seen. But I would bet my money on Sansa being important player in Northern politics.

 

[chrisdaw]

The replies will make it somewhat more amusing.

[Nevets]

57 minutes ago, Risto said:

Well, we do know enough to make your first line completely incorrect. I think that Sansa is going to grow up. Most  certainly she will do things that are in moral grey area, just like the rest of Stark pack. Will she turn into Cersei? No. Because Sansa is inherently different person from Cersei. Cersei was Cersei in Sansa's age too and Sansa is not Cersei. 

 

I think her superpower will be food. Point has already been made that Vale's storages are full of food, so one can only suppose that it will get into play sooner rather than later. I also see her going to North. Will it be with Vale army or not, that remains to be seen. But I would bet my money on Sansa being important player in Northern politics.

 

The Vale may have storehouses full of food, but Sansa doesn't have any actual control over them.  So, her superpower will be that she is able to get people to do as she wishes, which may well be to send the food to the North.  I pretty much agree with the rest of what you say.  Sansa's story is in and of the North, and she will go there.

[The Mother of The Others]

She there now.   Stark outreach program.  Reaching toward the Reach.   All will be Stark.  Or nothing.   So be where you are, lassie, and be there hard.   Then leave.   For Frodo.  South.  Not to out-Cercei queen Cercei mano-a-mano.  Because cersei will be dead so everyone will be outdoing her shortly.   Be there outside the city to shake your nose in rightful indignation at the stink of the royals.  Then replace the Lannisters with folger's crystals.  Younger and more tasty folger's crystals.