Would Barristan have beaten Sansa?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

ETA: know who wouldn't have obeyed? Dunk. 

You think so? If Aegon V, his king, gave him a command?

The thing is - we don't know what kind of man Ser Duncan the Tall was when become (the Lord Commander of the) Kingsguard. We can agree that he wouldn't have done cruel stuff for Aerion, presumably, but in the 230s and later his bond with Aegon V should have been very tight. Possibly too tight to care small things like Tanselle. Their project was the better the life of the commoners as a class, not to care all that much about individuals.

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Another hypothetical worth considering is whether or not Jaime would have abused Sansa. Pre-ASOS Jaime was cold and cruel, yet at the same time, he seemed to have reserved physical violence solely for men, and it's not like he's never disobeyed a king before. 

Physical violence is usually reserved for men in this world. Women are non-combatants, and there is neither honor nor political value in abusing them. Women are rarely targeted, not even in brutal wars.

What should be kept in mind is that Sansa was a hostage. As such, Joffrey was within his right to make her answer (and suffer) for her brother's crime, like hostages usually do in war and conflict. Robb should have taken Jaime's head in exchange for Ned's (or at least made him suffer for it, by mutilating/castrating him). That's how you show the other side that you mean what you say.

Killing/hurting Sansa after Oxcross as a representative of House Stark wouldn't have been something unheard of.

Jon makes it clear that he is going to kill the children hostages he took from the wildlings, Dany intended to do that with Meereenese hostages and let it slip that she was too weak to do it, Daeron II collected hostages from the Blackfyre supporters and was determined to kill them all should they ever rise in rebellion again, Eddard Stark was determined to execute Theon Greyjoy in his father's place, etc.

The ancient Lannister kings lived up to that standard, too, hanging dozens of Ironborn hostages whenever they dared to raid their coasts again.

In light of Tyrion seriously considering to punish Tommen for Cersei's transgressions (something he doesn't want to do) we can be pretty sure that Jaime also received enough lessons from his father to know when and how to show strength. Sansa wasn't something he had to protect. She was a representative of his enemies. And Robb posed a mortal danger to his sister and his family

[ChuckPunch]

Barristan is the kind of dude who follows orders without question. He forsook his vows of lifelong service on Joff's orders, why wouldn't he slap a girl? 

He'd probably do it gently though. 

[Jaak]

Joffrey was King... and a minor. With Regent.

In the event, there wasn´t any of the Kingsguard telling Joffrey "Your Grace - THIS order I need to confirm with your Regent.".

Could Barristan have done that?

[UnFit Finlay]

I'd lean towards no.

He swore an oath to obey the King BUT Joffrey was still officially a child and not yet considered old enough to rule on his own. I think he'd go to Cersei and/or Tywin to ask for clarification, much like Jaime told the others they should have.

Now if Cersei ordered him to do it, that's another matter entirely. I don't think she would, however. Tyrion suggests Joffrey send for her when he stops the Kingsguard stripping Sansa and Joffrey merely flushes.

I think Jaime would do the same, even pre-SOS. He's obviously got no moral objection to hurting children but I think he'd believe it to be beneath him. Unlike Barristan he'd have absolutely reason to fear Cersei's decision.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Weirdly, I think Ser Barristan could not or would not have beaten Sansa because Barristan was Sansa in relationship to Joffrey.

Sansa had been Joffrey's betrothed, a vow that is taken seriously in Westeros, even if it involves parents more than the prospective wedded couple. Barristan had been Joffrey's guard.

Joffrey began to signal his intention to break his vow to Sansa when he humiliated her in front of the court and had his minions strip and beat her.

Joffrey humiliated and, essentially, stripped Ser Barristan when he booted him from the Kings Guard and Barristan dropped his sword and armor in front of the courtiers. It was absolutely unheard of to remove someone from the Kings Guard until Joffrey's actions toward Ser Barristan.

Both Sansa and Ser Barristan escape King's Landing, confounding Lannister attempts to control and neutralize them. Both disguised themselves, using aliases. They are both now serving other agendas. Both are also mentoring young people - Sansa managing Sweetrobin and Barristan training up young knights to serve Dany.

Barristan knows that he is serving someone who wants the throne.  Sansa seems to be unaware what Littlefinger's end game is. (And GRRM has not revealed that end game to readers, either.)

Part of this parallel between Sansa and Ser Barristan comes up through analysis of Brienne, who is the more overt link between the two characters: Brienne tells everyone in the Riverlands that Sansa is her sister, a highborn maid of three-and-ten. Brienne and Ser Barristan are linked through Renly (Renly had been saving the "blue" spot on his Rainbow Guard with the hope that Ser Barristan would join him) and through the perfect knight / Ser Galladon of Morne backstory.

Another link between Barristan and Sansa is Ser Dontos - his life was spared at the request of Ser Barristan after the Defiance of Duskendale. His life was spared at the suggestion of Sansa after he showed up drunk and foolish at Joffrey's name day tourney. Brienne searches for both Sansa and Ser Dontos, and meets up with Pod at the ruined castle / birthplace of Ser Dontos. Brienne mentors Pod in a way similar to the way that Barristan mentors his young knights-in-training in Essos.

This is great! I've been wondering at the significance of Sansa asking for mercy while kneeling on Barristan's cloak for some time.

AGOT Sansa V

She stopped under the throne, at the spot where Ser Barristan's white cloak lay puddled on the floor beside his helm and breastplate. "Do you have some business for king and council, Sansa?" the queen asked from the council table.

"I do." She knelt on the cloak, so as not to spoil her gown, and looked up at her prince on his fearsome black throne. "As it please Your Grace, I ask mercy for my father, Lord Eddard Stark, who was the Hand of the King." She had practiced the words a hundred times.

 

[Lollygag]

43 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Joffrey was King... and a minor. With Regent.

In the event, there wasn´t any of the Kingsguard telling Joffrey "Your Grace - THIS order I need to confirm with your Regent.".

Could Barristan have done that?

I’m not sure whether he would have or not, but when Tyrion arrives in KL, this becomes an issue. Varys gives the riddle of the sellsword who must decide to follow the king, the priest, or the man with the gold.

Joff is the King, Tyrion as Tywin’s representative is the man with the gold, and Cersei is the priestess as she is compared to a goddess and uses her beauty to influence. 

 

ACOK Tyrion II

Varys covered his mouth with his hand. "You are very cruel to say so. One last matter. Lady Tanda gave a small supper last night. I have the menu and the guest list for your inspection. When the wine was poured, Lord Gyles rose to lift a cup to the king, and Ser Balon Swann was heard to remark, 'We'll need three cups for that.' Many laughed . . ."

 

[Stormking902]

2 hours ago, Natruviath said:

But his honour didn't stop him from allowing Aerys to roast people alive or rape his queen, Rhaella Targaryen. Besides, Ned also said in A Game of Thrones that if he approached Ser Barristan for help, he would tell him to do his duty.

There is a difference from standing by and "watching" your king commit grotesque crimes and another to actually commit the crimes yourself, would Selmy let Joffrey beat Sansa himself? He'll ya would Ser Baristan beat an innocent child himself? NO, if Aerys commanded Ser Baristan to help rape Rhaella would he help again I think NO. 

[Tagganaro]

It's a really good question, but as @UnFit Finlay said, I think Barry would have said no and went straight to Cersei/Tywin whoever for clarification.  And he would be going to them expecting them to tell him no, not to do it.  A big part of me would like to believe that Barry would never beat Sansa, and that by the time he leaves the KG in AGOT he is disgusted by his past acquiescence to Aerys's sick proclivities and would not repeat the same inaction even at that point.  I'd like to think further that he would quit the KG in disgust on the spot if he ever saw what Joffrey was doing to Sansa but I'm not sure I could say that.  

[Jaak]

9 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

@UnFit Finlay A big part of me would like to believe that Barry would never beat Sansa, and that by the time he leaves the KG in AGOT he is disgusted by his past acquiescence to Aerys's sick proclivities and would not repeat the same inaction even at that point.  I'd like to think further that he would quit the KG in disgust on the spot if he ever saw what Joffrey was doing to Sansa but I'm not sure I could say that.  

What Joffrey was doing to Sansa was not worse than what Aerys had done to Rhaella. And Robert had raped and sometimes beaten Cersei, too.

But with Joffrey, unlike Aerys and Robert, ser Barristan had the legal option to complain to Cersei.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Jaak said:

What Joffrey was doing to Sansa was not worse than what Aerys had done to Rhaella. And Robert had raped and sometimes beaten Cersei, too.

But with Joffrey, unlike Aerys and Robert, ser Barristan had the legal option to complain to Cersei.

One probably wants to use tattling on the King to his Mom very sparingly, especially with someone like Joffrey who holds grudges. And it's known that Cersei spoils Joff and is unable/unwilling to control him.

No good out for Barristan there.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You think so? If Aegon V, his king, gave him a command?

I'm positive, and I very rarely feel positive about much in ASoIaF. I agree that later on Dunk and Egg would have been even closer than what we've seen so far in the D&E stories, but I remain positive that Dunk would never beat a little girl - or boy for that matter - to satisfy a king's sadistic desires. And I'm also positive Egg would never ask for anything like this anyway. 

[kissdbyfire]

38 minutes ago, Jaak said:

But with Joffrey, unlike Aerys and Robert, ser Barristan had the legal option to complain to Cersei.

And Cersei would have... stood by her psycho kid, as she always did. 

[Chris Mormont]

I don't think Barristan would have obeyed Joffrey blindly.  I think the seeds of doubt were planted in the throne room when Ned presented Roberts will and Cersie had his men killed and Ned arrested.  I even think that he would have tried to stop Ned's execution on the grounds that Joff was a minor and thus setting a president that Joff's orders need to be confirmed.  

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'm positive, and I very rarely feel positive about much in ASoIaF. I agree that later on Dunk and Egg would have been even closer than what we've seen so far in the D&E stories, but I remain positive that Dunk would never beat a little girl - or boy for that matter - to satisfy a king's sadistic desires. And I'm also positive Egg would never ask for anything like this anyway. 

Nobody said anything about sadistic desires. In fact, it is not even clear that Joff acted out sadistic desires. There was a political reason there that triggered the whole thing. The victory at Oxcross. Sansa Stark had to suffer for the victory the rebel Robb had won in the field. King Joffrey could (and perhaps should) have taken Sansa's head for this. It is what you do with hostages. The Iron Throne wrote a letter to Catelyn and Robb commanding them to stop their treason, etc. and then Sansa would not be harmed. They refused to do so. The proper reaction to that is to make the enemy show that your threats are not empty. But Joff basically treats Sansa like the Freys treat Edmure. He humiliates and abuses her, but he does not kill her. One could say that was actually mercy.

I mean, what do we expect Jon to do to any of the wildling hostages he has taken when their fathers and brothers rape and kill men and women in the North? Treat them gently?

Aegon V apparently had a rather, well, troubled reign. He faced rebellions repeatedly.

If a little girl was a hostage King Aegon had taken from one of his fiercest enemies, and said enemy decided to publicly rape and kill Princess Shaera or Rhaelle after seizing them+, I'm sure King Aegon V would retaliate in kind, showing that he wasn't the kind of man who would allow you to get away with that.

Or what do you think he would do in such a situation? Treating the girl gently? Publicly showing weakness and thus inviting his other enemies to do even worse things to his other family members and the people whose lives is trying to better with his reforms?

And Egg's best friend would stand at his side, and do what's necessary to protect his friend and king as well as protect (and avenge) his friend and king's family. Dunk would have seen Egg's children grow up. They are likely going to mean much more to him than some little girl. He might even be a second father to them.

In fact, there is likely a reason why Egg's firstborn child is named Duncan - and why Dunk ends up fighting his friend and savior Lord Lyonel Baratheon to defend the honor (and marriage) of Prince Duncan Targaryen.

One could even say that beating up a little girl - while not exactly a nice thing to do - is in a completely different league than actually trying to kill the man you owe your life to.

In that sense, Dunk clearly is going to be corrupted by his office. For a Kingsguard, the innocent are never going to come first. It will always be the king and his family. With Aegon V this is likely not going to be that great of a deal than under other kings - considering Egg's overall politics - but it is pretty clear that Queen Betha would come before Tanselle if Dunk has to choose who to save... And not just because Dunk likely was personally close to Betha, too, but because it is his duty as a Kingsguard.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

This is great! I've been wondering at the significance of Sansa asking for mercy while kneeling on Barristan's cloak for some time.

AGOT Sansa V

She stopped under the throne, at the spot where Ser Barristan's white cloak lay puddled on the floor beside his helm and breastplate. "Do you have some business for king and council, Sansa?" the queen asked from the council table.

"I do." She knelt on the cloak, so as not to spoil her gown, and looked up at her prince on his fearsome black throne. "As it please Your Grace, I ask mercy for my father, Lord Eddard Stark, who was the Hand of the King." She had practiced the words a hundred times.

Very interesting observation and nice catch! This adds a whole new layer of potential meaning to the bloody cloak Sansa saves after Sandor Clegane's visit to her bedchamber, too.

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

No good out for Barristan there.

The two possibilities I can think of, if Barristan had been put on the spot about beating Sansa, are:

1) The "make him a fool" gambit that worked when Sansa saved Dontos. Barristan or someone else might try to cajole Joffrey into thinking that the "beating" delivered by Ser Dontos with the ripe melon morningstar was already enough punishment, and that humiliating Sansa was sufficient for the time being. Maybe they could encourage Joffrey to wait until his uncle Jaime returned safely, and then go after Sansa. (Buying some time and putting protections in place that might deter Joffrey altogether.)

2) Since Ser Barristan was the commander of the King's Guard, he could delegate the task to one of the other members of the group instead of delivering the beating himself. I think this would already be a major compromise of his sense of gallantry and justice, but it would be better than raising his own hand against a child.

One of the interesting things I noticed on a re-read was that the beating of Sansa by the king's guard is juxtaposed with a beating of Arya by Yoren, who punishes her for using her wooden sword to injure Hot Pie. We know that Yoren has saved Arya, and the beating is not just a lesson for her about being kinder to people who grew up without her advantages (similar to the lecture Donal Noye gives to Jon Snow), but a necessary part of hiding her real identity - if Yoren didn't beat her, people would wonder why he was giving "Arry" special treatment.

[Jon Fossoway]

Why would Barry go to Cersei or Tywin for "clarification" (kinda funny, that bureocratic twist). He is sworn to the Monarch in the throne, not his mother nor his Hand. And why wouldn't he slap Sansa if it was a direct request from Joffrey. That is one of the lightests and easy to do tasks as a Kingsguard, IMO. Jon Darry and Jaime had to stand while Aerys raped Rhaella and did her harm, Jaime witnessed Aerys' failing mental state and acted when he was about to set the city on flames. It seems to me that being a Kingsguard is not an easy thing to be, but not particularly because you may or may not have to slap a child in the face.

[Varysblackfyre321]

People tend to be understanding of inaction than active participation. Barriston, would probably watch Joffery beat and strip Sansa as he had watched Aerys rape Rhellia, He would almost certianly threw a line however at being an active participant in such these deeds however. He would no more level a fist at a 11 year old girl than he would hold down a woman to be raped by her husband, even if he is the king. He has limits. His honour interferes with his basic sanity only so much; remember he abandoned Viserys and Daenarys for the baratheons because he recognized Viserys should never become ruler of anything, protocol be damned he's not going to devote the remainder of his life trying to get another psycho on the throne.

[UnFit Finlay]

57 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And Cersei would have... stood by her psycho kid, as she always did. 

It depends what you mean by "stood by". She doesn't encourage his psychotic behaviour, she denies it's existence. If Barristan said "Joffrey has ordered me to beat Sansa Stark." Would she go "Well do it then!" or would she insist that Barristan must be mistaken?

As I said above when Tyrion stopped Joffrey and the Kingsguard from abusing her he actively asked Joffrey if he wanted Cersei involved. And Joff flushed and said nothing.

If Joffrey is worried that Cersei might take the side of TYRION, who she despises, over his then it's definitely arguable how she'd react to one of the most celebrated Knights in the realm. She might roll her eyes, insult Barristan, and insist he's misunderstood but would she actually order him to beat Sansa?

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said anything about sadistic desires. In fact, it is not even clear that Joff acted out sadistic desires. There was a political reason there that triggered the whole thing. The victory at Oxcross. Sansa Stark had to suffer for the victory the rebel Robb had won in the field. King Joffrey could (and perhaps should) have taken Sansa's head for this. It is what you do with hostages. The Iron Throne wrote a letter to Catelyn and Robb commanding them to stop their treason, etc. and then Sansa would not be harmed. They refused to do so. The proper reaction to that is to make the enemy show that your threats are not empty. But Joff basically treats Sansa like the Freys treat Edmure. He humiliates and abuses her, but he does not kill her. One could say that was actually mercy.

I think the key difference here is that Joff keeps his abuse a secret.

There's no political benefit if your enemies don't know about it so why do it? Edmure was paraded on a gallows outside of Riverrun, the Boltons sent pieces of Theon to the Ironborn with a note written in their soldiers blood. Joffrey had the Kingsguard beat Sansa in private while maintaining the public appearance, for a time, that they were in love What purpose does that serve?

[Varysblackfyre321]

4 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Why would Barry go to Cersei or Tywin for "clarification" (kinda funny, that bureocratic twist). He is sworn to the Monarch in the throne, not his mother nor his Hand. And why wouldn't he slap Sansa if it was a direct request from Joffrey. That is one of the lightests and easy to do tasks as a Kingsguard, IMO. Jon Darry and Jaime had to stand while Aerys raped Rhaella and did her harm, Jaime witnessed Aerys' failing mental state and acted when he was about to set the city on flames. It seems to me that being a Kingsguard is not an easy thing to be, but not particularly because you may or may not have to slap a child in the face.

True, but Joffrey is king but Cersi is queen regent. Joff is still a minor thus her will theoretically speaking should supercede his? 

[UnFit Finlay]

7 minutes ago, Jon Fossoway said:

Why would Barry go to Cersei or Tywin for "clarification" (kinda funny, that bureocratic twist). He is sworn to the Monarch in the throne, not his mother nor his Hand. And why wouldn't he slap Sansa if it was a direct request from Joffrey. That is one of the lightests and easy to do tasks as a Kingsguard, IMO. Jon Darry and Jaime had to stand while Aerys raped Rhaella and did her harm, Jaime witnessed Aerys' failing mental state and acted when he was about to set the city on flames. It seems to me that being a Kingsguard is not an easy thing to be, but not particularly because you may or may not have to slap a child in the face.

Because the Monarch is still a child. That's WHY they have a Regent in the first place. Because he isn't mature enough to rule on his own.

As Jaime put it regarding Tommen "The King is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he wants you to kill his horse, come to me."