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Would Barristan have beaten Sansa?


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Joffrey ordered his Kingsguard to beat Sansa several times throughout ACOK. Arys protested and then resigned to hitting Sansa less hard than the others, and the only time Joffrey commanded the Hound to beat her, Dontos interrupted before we could see his response. The rest of the Kingsguard complied without hesitation. This got me thinking, how would Barristan have reacted in this situation had Joffrey never dismissed him from the Kingsguard? Impulse says that he was too honorable to do so, and would have refused Joffrey's orders. But past behavior suggests a different answer.

We know that Barristan stood aside with the other Kingsguard while Aerys tortured and killed countless people, including his own wife. Barristan does feel some shame for this, but it's limited: he is haunted by the people killed at Aerys' hands, and wonders if it would have been better to have let him perish at Duskendale, but justifies this by saying he was confined by his vows to obey and protect the king, which trump all other moral dilemmas. At the same time, Barristan goes on to then serve the man who usurped Aerys' throne for fifteen years. He claims that Joffrey's ascent forced him to come to his senses, but this epiphany conveniently coincides with Joffrey removing him from the Kingsguard.

With this in mind, it appears that Barristan was far more concerned with emulating the vision of the perfectly obedient Kingsguard than he was of being the honorable knight that others believed him to be. I'm inclined to believe that had Joffrey never dismissed him, Barristan would have stood aside during Joffrey's reign just as he did during Aerys', and that while he surely would have protested as Arys Oakheart had, he would have also beaten a twelve-year-old girl had his king commanded him to. 

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For Barristan, staying aside is one thing, but engaging in such behaviour is another. We can't know it for certain. 

What is sure is, that he wouldn't have done anything to prevent someone else from doing it, after all, he served Aerys and Joffrey and never said a word about their hobbies. Which is Kingsguard for you. That's their purpose.

It's like many other "Bizarro World" things going on in ASOIAF - when you hear songs and stories about knightly southern chivalry - you know they are full of shit.

And, as the knight's responsibilities go to another level-joining the Kingsguard, one must be ready to be upgraded to another level of upholding this "chivalry", which is doing and watching the worst things done as a sentence for life-when you serve nutjobs like Aerys, Joffrey, Cersei, etc.

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This is in the realm of speculation on my part based on Joff not asking the Hound to hit Sansa at all and Oakheart, while not hitting her hard, still hit her, and others hitting her hard with no problem. It seems as though the power of the king over the KG is not so absolute as it might appear. I suspect that the life terms and lily-white, snow-pure honor of the KG is supposed to be (hopefully) a discouragement on the part of kings to ask them to carry out less than honorable requests. A balance of powers so to speak which doesn't officially infringe on the king's authority.

Again, speculation on my part, but Aerys' requests toward the end weighed heavily on Barristan. Robert's requests of Barristan would seem much less conflicting compared to Aerys' requests. But Joff and Cersei have parallels in Aerys, so I wonder if someone saw in his face or demeanor that Barristan might have limits which might be tested as Joff became older or as Cersei become regent. I don't see anything like this in Cersei's POV that I recall, but we hear from Cersei that Varys (who would want Joff's reign to go off the rails and would benefit from Barristan switching sides) might have seen this. It should be noted that Cersei very likely lies to Tyrion about this being started by Joff as when Tyrion offers his condolences doesn't even remember Robert, but Cersei says that Joff wanted someone to blame for Robert's death.

Would Barristan have beaten Sansa? I don't know. But I think there were enough doubts about Barristan that they felt he should be gone especially given the changes Cersei made to the KG later on: people who would not hesitate to carry out her more gruesome requests.

 

ACOK Tyrion I

"His Grace has a unique way of winning the hearts of his subjects," Tyrion said with a crooked smile. "Was it Joffrey's wish to dismiss Ser Barristan Selmy from his Kingsguard too?"

Cersei sighed. "Joff wanted someone to blame for Robert's death. Varys suggested Ser Barristan. Why not? It gave Jaime command of the Kingsguard and a seat on the small council, and allowed Joff to throw a bone to his dog. He is very fond of Sandor Clegane. We were prepared to offer Selmy some land and a towerhouse, more than the useless old fool deserved."

 

ACOK Sansa I

"I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey," the dwarf said.

"What loss?"

"Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you'll recall him if you try. He was king before you."

"Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him."

 

ADWD The Queensguard

But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

 

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8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

This is in the realm of speculation on my part based on Joff not asking the Hound to hit Sansa at all and Oakheart, while not hitting her hard, still hit her, and others hitting her hard with no problem. It seems as though the power of the king over the KG is not so absolute as it might appear. I suspect that the life terms and lily-white, snow-pure honor of the KG is supposed to be (hopefully) a discouragement on the part of kings to ask them to carry out less than honorable requests. A balance of powers so to speak which doesn't officially infringe on the king's authority.

If I might add that Sandor, who knows a deal about what the knights truly are (for example, his brother), doesn't become a knight even when he is Joffrey's sworn shield, and yet he is exactly the one who treats Sansa better than the rest of them.

While not being a saint, Sandor acted better and more knightly than the knights regarding Sansa, or even Arya, which is ironic since he despises the very title.

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Adding...

GRRM has talked about the child soldier, but I think he's dealing with another type of soldier. Soldiers are trained to follow orders, not think. Someone not inclined to think, someone who likes structure laid out by others, would be drawn to a field where they just follow orders.

Barristan has stated that he's this sort, and we see that Jamie is this sort as well. As such, it would take extreme circumstances for them to come to the the point where they question their orders being people who just don't care to question things in general. If one was the sort to question authority or established conventions, any sort of hyper-structured system would likely not appeal to you.

I think there's merit to giving soldier characters allowances for this aspect of their personality where they just aren't inclined to question for whatever reason. I don't mean excusing them, just acknowledging what's not in their nature. When Dany disappears, Barristan is forced to rule in her stead and struggles with the uncertainty that comes with having to make decisions for himself.

 

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16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Adding...

GRRM has talked about the child soldier, but I think he's dealing with another type of soldier. Soldiers are trained to follow orders, not think. Someone not inclined to think, someone who likes structure laid out by others, would be drawn to a field where they just follow orders.

Barristan has stated that he's this sort, and we see that Jamie is this sort as well. As such, it would take extreme circumstances for them to come to the the point where they question their orders being people who just don't care to question things in general. If one was the sort to question authority or established conventions, any sort of hyper-structured system would likely not appeal to you.

I think there's merit to giving soldier characters allowances for this aspect of their personality where they just aren't inclined to question for whatever reason. I don't mean excusing them, just acknowledging what's not in their nature. When Dany disappears, Barristan is forced to rule in her stead and struggles with the uncertainty that comes with having to make decisions for himself.

 

It's going to be interesting to see what happens once Barristan gets word that Aegon is (allegedly) alive. I think the theory that he may very well defect from Dany to Aegon is a real possibility. 

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40 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's going to be interesting to see what happens once Barristan gets word that Aegon is (allegedly) alive. I think the theory that he may very well defect from Dany to Aegon is a real possibility. 

There seems to be solid set up for this. He watched her carefully before committing to her but if her new fire-and-blood epiphany strikes Barristan as a bit too Aerys-ish...

Some people peg Barristan as dying soon, but I just don't think he will. Think he could become a very compelling character for me.

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He would, but like Arys.

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It's going to be interesting to see what happens once Barristan gets word that Aegon is (allegedly) alive. I think the theory that he may very well defect from Dany to Aegon is a real possibility. 

I think that he will die in battle of fire.

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Weirdly, I think Ser Barristan could not or would not have beaten Sansa because Barristan was Sansa in relationship to Joffrey.

Sansa had been Joffrey's betrothed, a vow that is taken seriously in Westeros, even if it involves parents more than the prospective wedded couple. Barristan had been Joffrey's guard.

Joffrey began to signal his intention to break his vow to Sansa when he humiliated her in front of the court and had his minions strip and beat her.

Joffrey humiliated and, essentially, stripped Ser Barristan when he booted him from the Kings Guard and Barristan dropped his sword and armor in front of the courtiers. It was absolutely unheard of to remove someone from the Kings Guard until Joffrey's actions toward Ser Barristan.

Both Sansa and Ser Barristan escape King's Landing, confounding Lannister attempts to control and neutralize them. Both disguised themselves, using aliases. They are both now serving other agendas. Both are also mentoring young people - Sansa managing Sweetrobin and Barristan training up young knights to serve Dany.

Barristan knows that he is serving someone who wants the throne.  Sansa seems to be unaware what Littlefinger's end game is. (And GRRM has not revealed that end game to readers, either.)

Part of this parallel between Sansa and Ser Barristan comes up through analysis of Brienne, who is the more overt link between the two characters: Brienne tells everyone in the Riverlands that Sansa is her sister, a highborn maid of three-and-ten. Brienne and Ser Barristan are linked through Renly (Renly had been saving the "blue" spot on his Rainbow Guard with the hope that Ser Barristan would join him) and through the perfect knight / Ser Galladon of Morne backstory.

Another link between Barristan and Sansa is Ser Dontos - his life was spared at the request of Ser Barristan after the Defiance of Duskendale. His life was spared at the suggestion of Sansa after he showed up drunk and foolish at Joffrey's name day tourney. Brienne searches for both Sansa and Ser Dontos, and meets up with Pod at the ruined castle / birthplace of Ser Dontos. Brienne mentors Pod in a way similar to the way that Barristan mentors his young knights-in-training in Essos.

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10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Impulse says that he was too honorable to do so, and would have refused Joffrey's orders. But past behavior suggests a different answer.

Is he too honourable? Or too dutiful? I think it's the latter, and that he would have dutifully obeyed the king. He would take no pleasure in it, and would probably do it like Arys. And as @Rufus Snow said, would have felt very guilty afterwards. 

ETA: know who wouldn't have obeyed? Dunk. 

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Is he too honourable? Or too dutiful? I think it's the latter, and that he would have dutifully obeyed the king. He would take no pleasure in it, and would probably do it like Arys. And as @Rufus Snow said, would have felt very guilty afterwards. 

ETA: know who wouldn't have obeyed? Dunk. 

I came to a similar conclusion myself. 

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Ser Selmy is a man with a good heart and good intentions I refuse to believe he would beat a daughter of a Great Lord and especially a daughter of a man he highly respected in the Ned. 

IMO I doubt he would beat any innocent girl even if ordered by Joffrey, Selmy is old and would probably refuse and offer his life for disobeying a direct order. 

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20 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Ser Selmy is a man with a good heart and good intentions I refuse to believe he would beat a daughter of a Great Lord and especially a daughter of a man he highly respected in the Ned. 

IMO I doubt he would beat any innocent girl even if ordered by Joffrey, Selmy is old and would probably refuse and offer his life for disobeying a direct order. 

But his honour didn't stop him from allowing Aerys to roast people alive or rape his queen, Rhaella Targaryen. Besides, Ned also said in A Game of Thrones that if he approached Ser Barristan for help, he would tell him to do his duty.

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10 minutes ago, Natruviath said:

But his honour didn't stop him from allowing Aerys to roast people alive or rape his queen, Rhaella Targaryen. Besides, Ned also said in A Game of Thrones that if he approached Ser Barristan for help, he would tell him to do his duty.

Agreed. Honestly, Aerys' Kingsguard were basically the Westerosi equivalent of a professional athlete's bodyguards who block the door while their client assaults an inebriated sorority girl. 

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Probably not. I don't see Joff daring to ask Barristan to do it - he is Barristan the Bold, after all, not Barristan the Meek, or Barristan the Cruel. There is also a reason why Joff didn't ask Sandor to do it - presumably because he didn't want antagonize, irritate, or provoke the Hound. And it should have been similar with Barristan.

If he had done it Barristan would have likely refused, considering that beating little girls isn't part of the job description while such girls are no threat to the life of the king.

Now, if Barristan had refused, Joff could have tried to force him. But then - when they offered him honorable retirement he didn't accept that, either. Really difficult to say.

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