Would Barristan have beaten Sansa?

[Lollygag]

10 minutes ago, Seams said:

Very interesting observation and nice catch! This adds a whole new layer of potential meaning to the bloody cloak Sansa saves after Sandor Clegane's visit to her bedchamber, too.

Yup. I did notice the "I do" and practiced words (vows?).

12 minutes ago, Seams said:

The two possibilities I can think of, if Barristan had been put on the spot about beating Sansa, are:

1) The "make him a fool" gambit that worked when Sansa saved Dontos. Barristan or someone else might try to cajole Joffrey into thinking that the "beating" delivered by Ser Dontos with the ripe melon morningstar was already enough punishment, and that humiliating Sansa was sufficient for the time being. Maybe they could encourage Joffrey to wait until his uncle Jaime returned safely, and then go after Sansa. (Buying some time and putting protections in place that might deter Joffrey altogether.)

2) Since Ser Barristan was the commander of the King's Guard, he could delegate the task to one of the other members of the group instead of delivering the beating himself. I think this would already be a major compromise of his sense of gallantry and justice, but it would be better than raising his own hand against a child.

Dontos was brilliant here. There's nothing that would have worked sufficiently all of the time, only some maybes on a case by case basis. I don't think #2 would have felt any better to Barristan, it would just be different. An interesting contrast to Ned's the one who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Barristan would be a designated headsman passing the sword? These dilemmas with no good way out make me appreciate how long the books take to write.

29 minutes ago, Seams said:

One of the interesting things I noticed on a re-read was that the beating of Sansa by the king's guard is juxtaposed with a beating of Arya by Yoren, who punishes her for using her wooden sword to injure Hot Pie. We know that Yoren has saved Arya, and the beating is not just a lesson for her about being kinder to people who grew up without her advantages (similar to the lecture Donal Noye gives to Jon Snow), but a necessary part of hiding her real identity - if Yoren didn't beat her, people would wonder why he was giving "Arry" special treatment.

And Bran received his own beating of a sort when he hit the ground from the 3EC...Mance (who has Rhaegar parallels and is disguised as the Lord of Bones which reminds me of Ned) beats the crap out of Jon...

[Lollygag]

ACOK Sansa II

What could it mean? Should she take it to the queen to prove that she was being good? Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased.

 

Joff often wanted her to be hit when he was angry which means he wanted Sansa to hurt—a lot—in turn. No one could have gotten out of this by giving Sansa a sissy slap.

 

[Lucius Lovejoy]

Nice thread @The Bard of Banefort!  I come to the same conclusion as most here - Barristan would have done as he was commanded, and felt terrible about it.  Jaime most certainly would not have hit Sansa, even at the beginning.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Nice thread @The Bard of Banefort!  I come to the same conclusion as most here - Barristan would have done as he was commanded, and felt terrible about it.  Jaime most certainly would not have hit Sansa, even at the beginning.

Jaimie near murdered brand at the beginning.

[Lord Varys]

39 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I think the key difference here is that Joff keeps his abuse a secret.

There's no political benefit if your enemies don't know about it so why do it? Edmure was paraded on a gallows outside of Riverrun, the Boltons sent pieces of Theon to the Ironborn with a note written in their soldiers blood. Joffrey had the Kingsguard beat Sansa in private while maintaining the public appearance, for a time, that they were in love What purpose does that serve?

Sorry, that is not true. When Sansa is made to answer for Robb's crime this is done in front of the entire court. If Balon Greyjoy had won such a victory in another rebellion against King Robert Ned would have taken Theon's head on the yard of Winterfell for all the North to see, and might even have sent the head to Balon with a note attached that he would be next.

That's how those things are done.

Joff also mistreated Sansa in private, of course, and that's not a nice thing to do. But she was a hostage. She had pretty much no longer any rights due to the way her family behaved.

I agree that Joff behaves like an ugly bully but the fact is that he actually treated her more gently than a hostage in her position deserves.

The only reason her life is spared is that they only have one Stark girl and she is too valuable due to her claim to be killed just to prove a point (at least since they did that with Ned already - if they had had Ned and the girls, they would have killed the girls first). If Cersei had had taken both Arya and Sansa one of them - likely Arya - would have been killed after Oxcross, or perhaps even after the Whispering Wood and Riverrun.

What Sansa actually is is later revealed by Cersei when she makes it clear to her that she won't allow her to live and see Stannis take the Red Keep and free her.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I disagree with the notion that Joffrey abused Sansa as a way of answering for Robb's rebellion. In AGOT, before Robb is declared king, he has Meryn Trant beat her for talking back to him, and that was in private. When we first see Sansa in ACOK, it's also revealed that her body is covered in bruises from all the beatings she was given, unrelated to Robb's military victories. Using Sansa as a way to "punish" Robb was just a convenient excuse for Joffrey to be extra cruel to her in public. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

8 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Nice thread @The Bard of Banefort!  I come to the same conclusion as most here - Barristan would have done as he was commanded, and felt terrible about it.  Jaime most certainly would not have hit Sansa, even at the beginning.

Thank you :-) I know not everyone's fond of Jaime on here, but this is one of the reasons why I think he is a more sympathetic character than Barristan. The fact that he thinks of himself as an honorable knight after doing nothing to stop Aerys is pathetic to me. That's not to say that I hate Barristan or think he's devoid of good qualities (I've never agreed with the fandom reputation he has of being a prude with a Madonna-Whore complex in regards to Ashara or Dany), but for a man known as "the Bold," he's rather spineless. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, UnFit Finlay said:

It depends what you mean by "stood by". She doesn't encourage his psychotic behaviour, she denies it's existence. If Barristan said "Joffrey has ordered me to beat Sansa Stark." Would she go "Well do it then!" or would she insist that Barristan must be mistaken?

As I said above when Tyrion stopped Joffrey and the Kingsguard from abusing her he actively asked Joffrey if he wanted Cersei involved. And Joff flushed and said nothing.

If Joffrey is worried that Cersei might take the side of TYRION, who she despises, over his then it's definitely arguable how she'd react to one of the most celebrated Knights in the realm. She might roll her eyes, insult Barristan, and insist he's misunderstood but would she actually order him to beat Sansa?

Good point, I had forgotten this. Need to re-read the pertinent bits.  

24 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

Nice thread @The Bard of Banefort!  I come to the same conclusion as most here - Barristan would have done as he was commanded, and felt terrible about it.  Jaime most certainly would not have hit Sansa, even at the beginning.

 

20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jaimie near murdered brand at the beginning.

Two completely different scenarios; only commonality is children get hurt/killed.

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I disagree with the notion that Joffrey abused Sansa as a way of answering for Robb's rebellion. In AGOT, before Robb is declared king, he has Meryn Trant beat her for talking back to him, and that was in private. When we first see Sansa in ACOK, it's also revealed that her body is covered in bruises from all the beatings she was given, unrelated to Robb's military victories. Using Sansa as a way to "punish" Robb was just a convenient excuse for Joffrey to be extra cruel to her in public. 

The 'anger over Robb's victory made me do it' doesn't fly w/ me. Joff was a sadistic creep, and that's why he had Sansa be beaten. 

[Sigella]

50 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yup. I did notice the "I do" and practiced words (vows?).

Dontos was brilliant here. There's nothing that would have worked sufficiently all of the time, only some maybes on a case by case basis. I don't think #2 would have felt any better to Barristan, it would just be different. An interesting contrast to Ned's the one who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Barristan would be a designated headsman passing the sword? These dilemmas with no good way out make me appreciate how long the books take to write.

And Bran received his own beating of a sort when he hit the ground from the 3EC...Mance (who has Rhaegar parallels and is disguised as the Lord of Bones which reminds me of Ned) beats the crap out of Jon...

Maybe I'm wearing rose-tinted glasses here, but I see ser Grandfather cooly saying he would need the Queen regents leave to abuse hostages.

[kissdbyfire]

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Thank you :-) I know not everyone's fond of Jaime on here, but this is one of the reasons why I think he is a more sympathetic character than Barristan. The fact that he thinks of himself as an honorable knight after doing nothing to stop Aerys is pathetic to me. That's not to say that I hate Barristan or think he's devoid of good qualities (I've never agreed with the fandom reputation he has of being a prude with a Madonna-Whore complex in regards to Ashara or Dany), but for a man known as "the Bold," he's rather spineless. 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Also, let's remember that Jaime, at the time a kid, was not happy w/ having to stand guard while Aerys raped Rhaella. And the disillusionment that started at the Tourney at Harrenhal was turned up to 11 when he was told by Darry (I think it was Darry?) that they can't protect the queen from the king. And all the while, as you pointed out, ser Barry did his duty w/o ever questioning anything.  

[Lucius Lovejoy]

24 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jaimie near murdered brand at the beginning.

I am not forgetting that - Jaime may have felt indifferent about Sansa being hit, but he would not have hit her as he would see no purpose to it and would believe it far beneath him.

13 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Thank you :-) I know not everyone's fond of Jaime on here, but this is one of the reasons why I think he is a more sympathetic character than Barristan. The fact that he thinks of himself as an honorable knight after doing nothing to stop Aerys is pathetic to me. That's not to say that I hate Barristan or think he's devoid of good qualities (I've never agreed with the fandom reputation he has of being a prude with a Madonna-Whore complex in regards to Ashara or Dany), but for a man known as "the Bold," he's rather spineless. 

Nice observation on the irony of the bold nickname.  I like Barristan enough, but I have hated how he and others romanticized old Kingsguard like Gerold Hightower, Arthur Dayne, etc who stood by idly during Aerys' atrocities.

[Jaak]

36 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Jaimie near murdered brand at the beginning.

Yes - and it seemed necessary. His first impulse was save and question Bran.

And he did it with the words "The things I do for love".

He could quite easily have refused Joffrey.

A pity we never see Jaime interacting with Joffrey at length.

[Lollygag]

5 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Maybe I'm wearing rose-tinted glasses here, but I see ser Grandfather cooly saying he would need the Queen regents leave to abuse hostages.

That would work great for going against Tommen on some issue (he won't eat his beets?), but Joff would remember Barristan going against him as the kid can hold a grudge and it would come at a great cost. Joff wouldn't understand the significance or value of hostages as he's just chopped Ned's head off. And Cersei wouldn't stop Joff, just play damage control to make sure he doesn't permanently disfigure her or kill her.

There's more on appealing to the regent on page 2 of this thread.

 

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I disagree with the notion that Joffrey abused Sansa as a way of answering for Robb's rebellion. In AGOT, before Robb is declared king, he has Meryn Trant beat her for talking back to him, and that was in private. When we first see Sansa in ACOK, it's also revealed that her body is covered in bruises from all the beatings she was given, unrelated to Robb's military victories. Using Sansa as a way to "punish" Robb was just a convenient excuse for Joffrey to be extra cruel to her in public. 

She is punished as a proxy for Ned's treason and Robb's and Catelyn's treasons. When Joff forces her to watch Ned's head it is after he learns that the North has risen in open rebellion against the Iron Throne and that Joff's own uncle, Jaime Lannister, has been defeated in battle and been taken prisoner.

Even before that - when they are still sweet-talking Sansa and intend to spare Ned's life - Robb and Cat are leading a rebellion. They are traitors, and Sansa's well-being is dependent on them ending their treason - which they do not do.

You can declare that the hostage system is cruel and ugly - and I agree on that, I find the way George portrays this to be very ugly and cruel - but it is not that Sansa is treated very badly when you have to keep in mind that they could (and possibly should) have killed her very early during the war.

If Shireen or a Tyrell or Tully girl would have been in the city while their families were in open rebellion against the Iron Throne the chances are very high that they would have suffered similar fates as Sansa - and not just because Joffrey was what he was. But because family members who become hostages are, in this world, punished for the crimes of their family members who are not hostages.

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

The 'anger over Robb's victory made me do it' doesn't fly w/ me. Joff was a sadistic creep, and that's why he had Sansa be beaten. 

It is what flies with the text.

The text doesn't have Joffrey bring Sansa into his apartments to have a little fun with her - which he could also have done. The things Sansa has to suffer through are always connected to things her family did - things Arya (whose actions first cause Joffrey to loathe both Arya and Sansa), Ned (who tried to steal Joff's crown), and Robb (who leads an army attempting to topple Joff) did. There are reasons why she is targeted. There are things happening that trigger Joffrey's anger. Reasons that could very well have led to her execution - not by Joff's hands, but by the hands of a stern king or his Hand.

Sansa's life and well-being is dependent on the behavior of her family. The Lannisters actually show her mercy when they decide to not kill her. Joffrey is kind to her when he just beats her.

They could have killed her. Or they could have treated her like Tywin treated Tysha or Ramsay treated Theon.

[Lollygag]

I don't think Jaime would have disobeyed because of any sense of honor as evidenced by Bran at this stage of ASOIAF. It took Jaime time to come to where he is now and this was before he had nothing to do but think in Riverrun. He was uniquely in a position to be able to object because he was Joff's uncle and a KG and because of the influence he had with Cersei. I don't think he can be compared to other KG in this way.

I think he'd object because he hates archers. Archers stand a safe distance while others risk themselves going into the conflict. I think Jaime would have felt that hitting Sansa for Joff would be beneath him and that Joff's asking the KG to hit Sansa was stupid. Joff does love his crossbow.

ASOS Jaime I

The galley was skimming downriver, a great wooden dragonfly. The water around her was churned white by the furious action of her oars. She was gaining visibly, the men on her deck crowding forward as she came on. Metal glinted in their hands, and Jaime could see bows as well. Archers. He hated archers.

 

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is what flies with the text.

if you take everything at face value, and believe every word characters say. 

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The text doesn't have Joffrey bring Sansa into his apartments to have a little fun with her - which he could also have done. The things Sansa has to suffer through are always connected to things her family did - things Arya (whose actions first cause Joffrey to loathe both Arya and Sansa), Ned (who tried to steal Joff's crown), and Robb (who leads an army attempting to topple Joff) did. There are reasons why she is targeted. There are things happening that trigger Joffrey's anger. Reasons that could very well have led to her execution - not by Joff's hands, but by the hands of a stern king or his Hand.

Sansa's life and well-being is dependent on the behavior of her family. The Lannisters actually show her mercy when they decide to not kill her. Joffrey is kind to her when he just beats her.

They could have killed her. Or they could have treated her like Tywin treated Tysha or Ramsay treated Theon.

it's excuses he uses. i don't doubt he is angry and wants to punish all the Starks. And Sansa is the one Stark he has access to, so he takes it out on her. But he does what he does because he is a sadistic little shit, there's no doubt in my mind about that.  

[Jon Fossoway]

3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I disagree with the notion that Joffrey abused Sansa as a way of answering for Robb's rebellion. In AGOT, before Robb is declared king, he has Meryn Trant beat her for talking back to him, and that was in private. When we first see Sansa in ACOK, it's also revealed that her body is covered in bruises from all the beatings she was given, unrelated to Robb's military victories. Using Sansa as a way to "punish" Robb was just a convenient excuse for Joffrey to be extra cruel to her in public. 

True enough, and he's petting the Kingsguard to harass her. It's my point too: why would Barry be any different. He's no young man anymore, he's fought for previous monarchs and watched Aerys slow decay into madness. Even thoufh Barry, for some chivalrous, heroic and pointless reason would not follow a direct "hit Sansa" order, that would surely make Joff angrier. But that's not really the issue: I'm sure Barry would follow slap a child's face command  if a King ordered it.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

if you take everything at face value, and believe every word characters say. 

it's excuses he uses. i don't doubt he is angry and wants to punish all the Starks. And Sansa is the one Stark he has access to, so he takes it out on her. But he does what he does because he is a sadistic little shit, there's no doubt in my mind about that.  

Your mind isn't what matters, the text is. Joff is a little piece of shit, no question about that, but there is no indication that (sexual) sadism is the reason why he picks on Sansa.

He has very good reasons to hate and loathe the Starks. And he and his family and government actually have very good reasons - reasons that are perfectly accepted within the framework of the society they live in - to make her suffer and die for the actions of her family.

It is not very nice but that's how it is.

If Ned Stark was actually willing and capable of murdering Theon Greyjoy over something his father has done, then he is actually more fucked up than Joffrey. Joffrey is a child that cannot really control his cruel tendencies (yet), but Ned is actually a good man knowing that this is the wrong thing to do yet he would willing to do such a hideous thing anyway, just to prove a point or obey his king.

[Sigella]

54 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

That would work great for going against Tommen on some issue (he won't eat his beets?), but Joff would remember Barristan going against him as the kid can hold a grudge and it would come at a great cost. Joff wouldn't understand the significance or value of hostages as he's just chopped Ned's head off. And Cersei wouldn't stop Joff, just play damage control to make sure he doesn't permanently disfigure her or kill her.

There's more on appealing to the regent on page 2 of this thread.

 

No, Im with @UnFit Finlay here. Joffys reaction to Tyrions threat to snitch and some line from Sansa (something about Joffy being kinder / less violent with his mother present) gives textual support.

Also Cersei did try to stop Joff from killing Ned. No reason for her to allow her son to become a wifebeating brute above all else he already is.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Jon Fossoway said:

True enough, and he's petting the Kingsguard to harass her. It's my point too: why would Barry be any different. He's no young man anymore, he's fought for previous monarchs and watched Aerys slow decay into madness. Even thoufh Barry, for some chivalrous, heroic and pointless reason would not follow a direct "hit Sansa" order, that would surely make Joff angrier. But that's not really the issue: I'm sure Barry would follow slap a child's face command  if a King ordered it.

The point here is that Barristan very quickly decides that Joffrey Baratheon is no king at all - when the boy decides to send him into honorable retirement.

The fact that Selmy so quickly turns against Joff indicates that he might not be willing to do the same things for him than he was willing to do - or allow to happen - for Aerys II.

Selmy realized that his heroics at Duskendale might actually have been not that great. In fact, he might not even have been willing to do the stuff he did for Aerys II for Robert Baratheon.

And thinking about Aerys II - we don't know what the Kingsguard had to do under him. We know they stood there while the king raped his sister-wife and while he executed people he had sentenced to death. Burning somebody alive is cruel, although not necessarily all that crueler compared to being hanged or put alive in a crow cage to die there. There are very cruel ways to execute people in this world, and people are very familiar with them.

In fact, any household knight or sworn sword would be expected to support/not interfere with their lord's or king's judgments. 

We have no reason to believe Aerys II ever burned any women or children post-Duskendale, or used his Kingsguard to torment innocent women and children. It may have been hard to stand there and watch people be killed, but this is actually not something people in such cultures would be unfamiliar with. In fact, public executions usually were spectacles people liked to attend in the real world middle ages, not something people were abhorred by. And while watching Aerys II rape his sister-wife likely was tough, you don't have to be a Kingsguard to stand there doing nothing. No sworn sword/servant of a lord or king would interfere with the marital life of the people who feed and clothe him. At least not as long as they cared to stay employed/alive...