Free folk Daemon

Is Varys a Blackfyre?

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Any quotes from the books hinting towards this theory would be much appreciated. Thank you

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I don't think so. To direct. I suspect a distant relative perhaps. 

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1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't think so. To direct. I suspect a distant relative perhaps. 

From the female line ;)

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Nobody in the series is actually a Blackfyre anymore. The Blackfyres are all dead. What might remain are descendants of Blackfyres through the female line - which means there might be children or grandchildren of female members of House Blackfyres.

But those would be as much Blackfyres as Robert Baratheon was a Targaryen.

Varys could be the son of such a Blackfyre woman. Or he may be a Targaryen (or Blackfyre) bastard. There is no textual evidence in that direction at this point. Theories putting forth this idea are usually based on the fact that there has to be a very good explanation as to why Varys (and Illyrio) are personally invested in Westeros and its politics.

For all we know they were born in Essos (Varys in Lys, and Illyrio in Pentos, presumably) yet they seem to care more about Westeros and its politics than the Free Cities. Why don't Varys and Illyrio create a savior to conquer and unite the Free Cities? Wouldn't that be a worthier goal for their enterprise?

To explain this it makes sense to assume that they are related to the Targaryens/Blackfyres. Then their family once ruled Westeros, explaining why they might be interested in putting one of their own on the Iron Throne - or better the lives of the people living in Westeros rather than Essos.

This is especially relevant in connection to Varys considering the man actually chose to leave the safety of Pentos - where he had grown rich and powerful together with Illyrio - to daily risk his life at the court of Mad Aerys, and later by plotting behind the backs of Robert, Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Tyrion, Tywin, etc.

If anybody had started from as humble beginnings as Varys - as an orphan slave boy - one would expect him to enjoy the riches he acquired and live out the remainder of his life in peace and prosperity. Yet instead the man lives and works for a decades at a court where he is hated and despised.

There has to be a better explanation for this than self-hatred or that the plot required it. And the whole story of Varys' castration may also provide a subtle hint there. A Targaryen/Blackfyre descendant might be considered a more valuable sacrifice than just your average boy. The sorcerer bought Varys from the master of the mummers, but he could presumably have bought any other slave, possibly even one who was actually for sale in the auctions rather than one already in possession of somebody else.

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I can't pull any direct quotes for you but there are a couple of things.

From the Dunk and Egg Novels we have Egg who is Aegon Targaryen shaving his head so people won't see his hair grow in silver when he is trying to hide his identity.

I believe it was Maegor the cruel who finished the Red keep?  and said that only the dragon shall ever know the secrets of the Red Keep.  Clearly Varys knows its secrets.

The basis of the theory to my knowledge is motive, but as that is somewhat subjective and I assume it is what led you to this I won't bother talking about it.  Though IDK if he is Blackfyre or Brightflame.  I'm more inclined to think Ilyrio descends from the female line of house blackfyre, as he specifically tells Tyrion it went extinct in the male line.

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The spider has a drop of dragonblood, be it red, black or brown. 

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I think that Varys is a descendant of Calla Blackfyre and her husband Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, founder of Golden Company. And that Illyrio's second wife, Serra from Lys, was Varys' little sister.

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8 hours ago, Free folk Daemon said:

Any quotes from the books hinting towards this theory would be much appreciated. Thank you

He supports Aegon.  Some fans believe the kid is a Blackfyre and they reach out there with a theory and claim that Varys must also be a Blackfyre.  

There is a better chance that Varys is not a Blackfyre, but the chance is still there that he is.  

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Everybody is either a hidden Targaryen or a Blackfyre .

And everyone is Azur Ahai, and bloodraven is responsible literally directly responsible for everything that happens in the series; he made Jaime push Bran, he made Tyrion kill Tywin, ge even made Jon go down on Ygritte.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Varys is most likely a brightfyre not a blackfyre. He  is most likely the son or the son of the son of aerion bright flame. His father (this is if his father isn't aerion but his son) most likely had relations with a blackfyre on the female side. Varys going all the way...

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10 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Varys is most likely a brightfyre not a blackfyre. He  is most likely the son or the son of the son of aerion bright flame. His father (this is if his father isn't aerion but his son) most likely had relations with a blackfyre on the female side. Varys going all the way...

There is pretty much evidence for this idea. Aerion's son Maegor should have been to prominent to produce a legitimate son without the Iron Throne keeping track on that person, and that's only if that guy lived to breed.

Varys could always be a Targaryen bastard, though. If we enter bastard territory, Varys could actually be the child of not only Maegor but also of Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or even Aerys II. All they would have to do for that to happen is to make a pleasure trip to Lys somewhere in their life and impregnate some slave whore there. That is not that difficult. And we actually know literally nothing about the travels and exploits of both Prince Jaehaerys and Prince Aerys before they ascended to the Iron Throne.

Aerys could actually have made a grand tour of the Free Cities in his teens, accompanied by Tywin and/or Steffon.

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42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys could always be a Targaryen bastard, though. If we enter bastard territory, Varys could actually be the child of not only Maegor but also of Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or even Aerys II.

~

Aerys could actually have made a grand tour of the Free Cities in his teens, accompanied by Tywin and/or Steffon.

But if that was so, then it doesn't explain Varys' connection with Golden Company. And it is obvious that they are connected. Furthermore, it's Varys and not Illyrio, who is in charge with what Golden Company does. So most likely Varys is a descendant of Bittersteel. And that also makes him a Blackfyre thru female line - Bittersteel's wife Calla Blackfyre.

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14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

But if that was so, then it doesn't explain Varys' connection with Golden Company. And it is obvious that they are connected. Furthermore, it's Varys and not Illyrio, who is in charge with what Golden Company does. So most likely Varys is a descendant of Bittersteel. And that also makes him a Blackfyre thru female line - Bittersteel's wife Calla Blackfyre.

Illyrio is the one who controls the Golden Company. Varys sits in Westeros. Illyrio is also the one who made a contract written in blood. If there is a Blackfyre descendant through the female line, it is Illyrio.

Varys could also be one such, but we actually have very good hints that Illyrio is the one who actually has some dragons in his family tree.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Illyrio is also the one who made a contract written in blood.

Yes, and I read this with emphasis on the blood rather than the contract. Blood in the veins, not blood on parchment.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

But if that was so, then it doesn't explain Varys' connection with Golden Company. And it is obvious that they are connected. Furthermore, it's Varys and not Illyrio, who is in charge with what Golden Company does. So most likely Varys is a descendant of Bittersteel. And that also makes him a Blackfyre thru female line - Bittersteel's wife Calla Blackfyre.

How do you figure the Varys is the senior player in the Illyrio-Varys partnership? 

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Illyrio is also the one who made a contract written in blood.

And I think that for descendant of Bittersteel, there is no need to sign any contracts with Golden Company. Because he is not one of them, he is their leader. He is not going into contract with them, they are serving to him. And thus that him is Varys. While outsider (not part of Blackfyre family) Illyrio had to sign a contract.

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Illyrio is the one who controls the Golden Company. Varys sits in Westeros.

Varys went to Westeros years ago, to prepare Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres. Originally he planned to clash Targaryens together, father against son, and then Golden Company was going to defeat whoever will survive after that war. But Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, and Robert's Rebellion caused by it, ruined Varys' plan. So they had to postpone for many years.

Varys went to Westeros, and Illyrio, after signing contract with Golden Company, was left in charge of them, by Varys' order.  Varys said to them to obey to Illyrio. But it's obvious that he is not their real leader. I'm basing it on this:

Quote

“You have some chests for us?”

“And mules to carry them.”

“Mules are too slow. We have pack horses, we’ll shift the chests to them. Duck, attend to that.”

“Why is it always Duck who attends to things?” The big man slipped his sword back in its sheath. “What do you attend to, Haldon? Who is the knight here, you or me?” Yet he stomped off toward the baggage mules all the same.

“How fares our lad?” asked Illyrio as the chests were being secured. Tyrion counted six, oaken chests with iron hasps. Duck shifted them easily enough, hoisting them on one shoulder.

“He is as tall as Griff now. Three days ago he knocked Duck into a horse trough.”

“I wasn’t knocked. I fell in just to make him laugh.”

“Your ploy was a success,” said Haldon. “I laughed myself.”

“There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it.” Illyrio sounded oddly sad. “I thought I might continue on to Ghoyan Drohe with you. A farewell feast before you start downriver …”

“We have no time for feasts, my lord,” said Haldon. “Griff means to strike downriver the instant we are back.

They are respectful towards him, but they don't bend to him.

Quote

Gathering the reins in his right hand and the leads in his left, Ser Rolly set off at a brisk trot.

“Good fortune,” Illyrio called after them. “Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for his wedding. I will rejoin you in Westeros. That I swear, by my sweet Serra’s hands.”

The last that Tyrion Lannister saw of Illyrio Mopatis, the magister was standing by his litter in his brocade robes, his massive shoulders slumped.

When they were leaving, they didn't asked him whether they can go, and they didn't even said goodbye to him. Is that the way how servants should part with their master?

Quote

“The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys,” Lemore was saying.

“That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone.”

“Illyrio could not have been expected to know that the girl would choose to remain at Slaver’s Bay.”

“No more than he knew that the Beggar King would die young, or that Khal Drogo would follow him into the grave. Very little of what the fat man has anticipated has come to pass.” Griff slapped the hilt of his long-sword with a gloved hand. “I have danced to the fat man’s pipes for years, Lemore. What has it availed us?

Again, Lemore is defending Illyrio, but she isn't saying to Griff how he dares to criticise Illyrio, and also disrespectfully call him fat man.

And then in the Lost Lord chapter, people of GC were criticising Illyrio's plans. And said: " "It grieves me to say it, but Magister Illyrio and his friends may have been unwise to put so much hope on this child queen." No, thought Griff, but they were most unwise to put their hopes on you."

Quote

“Which plan?” said Tristan Rivers. “The fat man’s plan? The one that changes every time the moon turns? First Viserys Targaryen was to join us with fifty thousand Dothraki screamers at his back. Then the Beggar King was dead, and it was to be the sister, a pliable young child queen who was on her way to Pentos with three new-hatched dragons. Instead the girl turns up on Slaver’s Bay and leaves a string of burning cities in her wake, and the fat man decides we should meet her by Volantis. Now that plan is in ruins as well.

I have had enough of Illyrio’s plans. Robert Baratheon won the Iron Throne without the benefit of dragons. We can do the same. And if I am wrong and the realm does not rise for us, we can always retreat back across the narrow sea, as Bittersteel once did, and others after him.”

If Illyrio was really their leader, then they wouldn't have said so about him.

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11 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And I think that for descendant of Bittersteel, there is no need to sign any contracts with Golden Company. Because he is not one of them, he is their leader. He is not going into contract with them, they are serving to him. And thus that him is Varys. While outsider (not part of Blackfyre family) Illyrio had to sign a contract.

A contract writ in blood can suggest that a written agreement was drafted and then signed in blood rather than ink, and/or it could mean that the agreement is based on blood relationships. 

13 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Varys went to Westeros years ago, to prepare Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres. Originally he planned to clash Targaryens together, father against son, and then Golden Company was going to defeat whoever will survive after that war. But Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna, and Robert's Rebellion caused by it, ruined Varys' plan. So they had to postpone for many years.

Varys went to Westeros, and Illyrio, after signing contract with Golden Company, was left in charge of them, by Varys' order.  Varys said to them to obey to Illyrio. But it's obvious that he is not their real leader. I'm basing it on this:

They are respectful towards him, but they don't bend to him.

When they were leaving, they didn't asked him whether they can go, and they didn't even said goodbye to him. Is that the way how servants should part with their master?

Jon Connington is not the agent of Illyrio or Varys. He has been asked to see Aegon succeed to his grandfather's throne. Jon Connington is not a member of the Golden Company, and Rolly and Haldon have been commanded to follow Jon Connington.

I find that scene you quoted tells us something else. In Tyrion III, Dance 8, Tyrion wakes to find Illyrio speaking with Haldon and Rolly "in a tongue he did not know." (There was no mention of a sword. ;)) Illyrio gave them six oaken chests with iron hasps. Presumably, such chests by themselves would be at least somewhat heavy. 

Illyrio's first concern appears to be for Griff's noble lad. He has brought a gift of candied ginger for him, noting that he was always fond of it, suggesting more than a passing familiarity with the boy and explaining the chest of rich boy's clothes Illyrio had stored in his manse. 

Illyrio wants to continue on with them to feast the rest of the band of the Shy Maid, but Haldon explains that Griff wants to be away before Dothraki khalasars arise ahead of a larger khalasar of 30,000 commanded by Pono (who had been one of Drogo’s kos). This seems to be a perfectly legitimate reason to decline the fat man's hospitality, no? 

We see that Illyrio has already told Haldon that Tyrion's value (in addition to his cleverness, which would be unlikely to sway Griff) is his knowledge of dragonlore. 

As Haldon, Rolly, and Tyrion depart, Illyrio wishes them, "Good fortune," and bids them, "Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for his wedding." What wedding? In the previous Tyrion chapter, Illyrio noted that Daenerys was missing her king--a sphinx (which can be interpreted as fraud) with a dragon's body and a male head. It is only now that we can begin to assume that Illyrio intends to wed the noble lad to Daenerys? 

Then Tyrion notices that Illyrio watches them with shoulders slumped and looking small, clearly suggesting that Illyrio is sad, presumably, about missing the boy. 

At this point, we can reasonably infer that the noble lad might be Illyrio's son, or that the noble lad spent his earliest years in Illyrio's home. 

29 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Again, Lemore is defending Illyrio, but she isn't saying to Griff how he dares to criticise Illyrio, and also disrespectfully call him fat man.

Would that be her place to do so? 

33 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And then in the Lost Lord chapter, people of GC were criticising Illyrio's plans. And said: " "It grieves me to say it, but Magister Illyrio and his friends may have been unwise to put so much hope on this child queen." No, thought Griff, but they were most unwise to put their hopes on you."

If Illyrio was really their leader, then they wouldn't have said so about him.

Because followers never criticize their leaders? And followers never take a little initiative? In any case, the Golden Company was taking Aegon as their king, not Illyrio or Varys. 

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22 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

How do you figure the Varys is the senior player in the Illyrio-Varys partnership? 

Varys hired Illyrio.

Quote

As a young man, Illyrio was a poor bravo, living by his blade. After the young Varys arrived in Pentos they formed an unlikely friendship and worked together and became very rich.

Impoverished and despised in Pentos, Varys made an agreement with a poor sellsword, Illyrio Mopatis. Varys would steal objects from lesser thieves and Illyrio would get the objects back for their original owners for a small fee. Soon, everyone in Pentos who ever had valuables stolen from them knew who to ask to get their belongings back. Varys and Illyrio quickly grew rich. Realizing the value of information, Varys began training his spy network to acquire the information, letters, ledgers and charts of the wealthy and powerful. The little mice were agile orphans purchased by Varys.[15]

These secrets increased Varys and Illyrio's wealth tenfold, and in time Varys became so infamous that word of his talents reached the ears of the Westerosi King Aerys II Targaryen across the narrow sea.

Also Illyrio is part of this, because of his love for Serra, who maybe was Varys' sister, not for vengeance, or to get Iron Throne, like Varys is.

Quote

“I told you, my little friend, not all that a man does is done for gain. Believe as you wish, but even fat old fools like me have friends, and debts of affection to repay.”

Liar, thought Tyrion. There is something in this venture worth more to you than coin or castles. “You meet so few men who value friendship over gold these days.”

“Too true,” the fat man said, deaf to the irony. “How is it that the Spider became so dear to you?”

“We were young together, two green boys in Pentos.”

“Varys came from Myr.”

“So he did. I met him not long after he arrived, one step ahead of the slavers. By day he slept in the sewers, by night he prowled the rooftops like a cat. I was near as poor, a bravo in soiled silks, living by my blade. Perhaps you chanced to glimpse the statue by my pool? Pytho Malanon carved that when I was six-and-ten. A lovely thing, though now I weep to see it.”

“Age makes ruins of us all. I am still in mourning for my nose. But Varys …”

“In Myr he was a prince of thieves, until a rival thief informed on him. In Pentos his accent marked him, and once he was known for a eunuch he was despised and beaten. Why he chose me to protect him I may never know, but we came to an arrangement.

During their youth, in their duet, Varys was brains, and Illyrio was muscles. And now Varys is a mastermind, and Illyrio is a "back office"/supporter.

All main preparations for Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres are being arranged in Westeros, by Varys. While Illyrio in Essos is just sitting and waiting for Varys' order, when it will be time for Golden Company to attack 7K.

Varys does intellectual part of conspiracy, while Illyrio is just looking over Golden Company. I think that, by failure of first Five Rebellions, Varys has realised, that what could make a difference, between failed rebellion and a victory, is knowledge of 7K, and big players of The Game of Thrones, and network of agents on enemy's territory. Bittersteel and his successors, such as Maelys the Monstrous, had an army, but an army is not enough to conquer 7K, and defeat its rulers. So the most important part - making network of spies and agents, and fertilizing ground in 7K for the upcoming invasion, Varys took that assignment for himself, while Illyrio is just a sitting duck in Essos, doing nothing important, his role is to wait and keep GC in check, prepare financial side of Rebellion, and other minor things like that.

Which one of them is the one in charge, is based on a combination of subtle things, that show, what sort of dynamics is there between them.

Like for example their secret meeting, witnessed by Arya. When the two of them needed to talk in person, to discuss important matters, it was Illyrio who came to Varys to 7K, not the other way around. It's like when Big Boss wants to discuss something with his subordinate, he is summoning him to come to his office for that talk.

Or Tyrion for example. Varys did lots of things to get his hands on Tyrion. Whyle Illyrio just served a role of a currier, that delivered Tyrion to Griff's people, because that's what Varys oredered him to do. It was Varys who wanted Tyrion to become their asset, and Illyrio just comlied with that wish.

Etc.

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17 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Jon Connington is not a member of the Golden Company, and Rolly and Haldon have been commanded to follow Jon Connington.

I think that they were commanded to do so by Varys, and not Illyrio. Also it's obvious that they are actually serving to Varys, and not to Jon. And it's :bs:, that one of them told to officers of Golden Company about Young Griff, just a few hours prior his arrival, they knew truth all along. They knew what Griff thinks - that the boy is son of Rhaegar, but they knew that the boy is a Blackfyre, and relative of Varys.

19 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

llyrio's first concern appears to be for Griff's noble lad. He has brought a gift of candied ginger for him, noting that he was always fond of it, suggesting more than a passing familiarity with the boy and explaining the chest of rich boy's clothes Illyrio had stored in his manse. 

That's because for first five years of his life, fAegon lived in Illyrio's mansion. Which doesn't mean that they are bloodrelated.

A bit of tinfoil ahead - More like the boy is a Blackfyre, and thus was bloodrelated to Illyrio's wife Serra. I think that his mother is septa Lemore, who is Lady Jeyne Swann, and his father is Barristan Selmy, who has a bit of Blackfyre blood thru his mother, who was probably daughter of Aenys Blackfyre, that came with him to Westeros during Great Council of 233.

And also all Targaryens are partially Swanns. That's because Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was mother of Larra Rogare, and grandmother of Aegon IV. And maybe Serenei of Lys was Larra Rogare. So Shiera Seastar/Quaithe is 25% Swann, and Bittersteel and Daemon Blackfyre were 12,5 % Swanns (same percentage of Targaryen blood had three Baratheon brothers). So Varys is related to Swanns, and that's why Balon Swann is Varys' agent, and fAegon is Varys' relative thru Jeyne Swann/septa Lemore. Or not :D

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