Free folk Daemon

Is Varys a Blackfyre?

162 posts in this topic

22 hours ago, Free folk Daemon said:

Any quotes from the books hinting towards this theory would be much appreciated. Thank you

As per text? No, but varys being a blackfyre, or brother to Serra (Fatty McFatterton's wife) or Serra herself  all play a prominent role in the blackfyre fan fic  

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13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And everyone is Azur Ahai, and bloodraven is responsible literally directly responsible for everything that happens in the series; he made Jaime push Bran, he made Tyrion kill Tywin, ge even made Jon go down on Ygritte.

BOOM! Bloodraven is just really bored in a tree so he manipulates everyone to be is soap opera that he can watch via his tree 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Varys hired Illyrio.

Also Illyrio is part of this, because of his love for Serra, who maybe was Varys' sister, not for vengeance, or to get Iron Throne, like Varys is.

During their youth, in their duet, Varys was brains, and Illyrio was muscles. And now Varys is a mastermind, and Illyrio is a "back office"/supporter.

All main preparations for Sixth Rebellion of Blackfyres are being arranged in Westeros, by Varys. While Illyrio in Essos is just sitting and waiting for Varys' order, when it will be time for Golden Company to attack 7K.

Varys does intellectual part of conspiracy, while Illyrio is just looking over Golden Company. I think that, by failure of first Five Rebellions, Varys has realised, that what could make a difference, between failed rebellion and a victory, is knowledge of 7K, and big players of The Game of Thrones, and network of agents on enemy's territory. Bittersteel and his successors, such as Maelys the Monstrous, had an army, but an army is not enough to conquer 7K, and defeat its rulers. So the most important part - making network of spies and agents, and fertilizing ground in 7K for the upcoming invasion, Varys took that assignment for himself, while Illyrio is just a sitting duck in Essos, doing nothing important, his role is to wait and keep GC in check, prepare financial side of Rebellion, and other minor things like that.

Which one of them is the one in charge, is based on a combination of subtle things, that show, what sort of dynamics is there between them.

Like for example their secret meeting, witnessed by Arya. When the two of them needed to talk in person, to discuss important matters, it was Illyrio who came to Varys to 7K, not the other way around. It's like when Big Boss wants to discuss something with his subordinate, he is summoning him to come to his office for that talk.

Or Tyrion for example. Varys did lots of things to get his hands on Tyrion. Whyle Illyrio just served a role of a currier, that delivered Tyrion to Griff's people, because that's what Varys oredered him to do. It was Varys who wanted Tyrion to become their asset, and Illyrio just comlied with that wish.

Etc.

I see where you are coming from. I don't agree with you, but I see why you think the way you do. I saw the relationship develop more as an investor--Illyrio--investing in a good prospect--Varys. As to the conversation overheard by Arya, I don't Varys was free to escape King's Landing for days at a time. Wouldn't such absences have been questioned? And who is giving, and who is agreeing to follow, the order here...

"Too soon, too soon," the voice with the accent complained. "What good is war now? We are not ready. Delay."

"As well bid me stop time. Do you take me for a wizard?"

The other chuckled. "No less." . . .

"What would you have me do?" asked the torchbearer, a stout man in a leather half cape. . .

...

"You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly.

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I think that they were commanded to do so by Varys, and not Illyrio. Also it's obvious that they are actually serving to Varys, and not to Jon. And it's :bs:, that one of them told to officers of Golden Company about Young Griff, just a few hours prior his arrival, they knew truth all along. They knew what Griff thinks - that the boy is son of Rhaegar, but they knew that the boy is a Blackfyre, and relative of Varys.

As to the bolded part, I think you misunderstood that point of my argument. I know they knew all along. But this was how the reader (and Tyrion) was introduced to it.  As to whether the boy is a relative of Varys or Illyrio or both or neither cannot be proven yet, only assumed. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

That's because for first five years of his life, fAegon lived in Illyrio's mansion. Which doesn't mean that they are bloodrelated.

I am pretty sure I allowed for this in my argument. I think the author is implying that Illyrio is the noblest young lad's father, but it could be as you say. 

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

A bit of tinfoil ahead - More like the boy is a Blackfyre, and thus was bloodrelated to Illyrio's wife Serra. I think that his mother is septa Lemore, who is Lady Jeyne Swann, and his father is Barristan Selmy, who has a bit of Blackfyre blood thru his mother, who was probably daughter of Aenys Blackfyre, that came with him to Westeros during Great Council of 233.

And also all Targaryens are partially Swanns. That's because Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was mother of Larra Rogare, and grandmother of Aegon IV. And maybe Serenei of Lys was Larra Rogare. So Shiera Seastar/Quaithe is 25% Swann, and Bittersteel and Daemon Blackfyre were 12,5 % Swanns (same percentage of Targaryen blood had three Baratheon brothers). So Varys is related to Swanns, and that's why Balon Swann is Varys' agent, and fAegon is Varys' relative thru Jeyne Swann/septa Lemore. Or not :D

Wow, you weren't kidding... 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Wow, you weren't kidding... 

Yeah, I know, it's :rolleyes: Though how fun and entertaining it will be, if my guesses are right. ^_^ Also there is a ground in the books, on which this theory is based.

Spoiler

Like Johanna Swann was ruler of Lys in all but name. And Rogare family were owners of private bank, that was more influential, than even Iron Bank of Braavos. So whom, if not them, were actual rulers of Lys? And there was information in the World book, about Rogares, lots of information, but not name of Larra's mother. Combine those two things together - Johanna Swann - ruler of Lys in all but name, and no name given for Lysandro's wife. Add to them circumstances, in which was kidnapped Viserys II, and how he ended up in Rogare's household, and got married with Larra. Even though prior that, he was prisoner of Sharako Lohar, who was then killed by admirer of Johanna Swann. So my conclusion is that, when Johanna married with Lysandro the Magnificent Rogare, she kept her last name Swann. And Johanna's admirer, that killed her paramour Sharako Lohar, was Johanna's husband Lysandro. And he took Viserys, and gave him as a present to his wife. Maybe Johanna wanted Sharako to give Viserys to her, because she wanted to marry the boy to her daughter Larra. But Sharako didn't agreed to give Viserys to her, and thus Johanna asked her husband to kill her lover, and take the boy from him.

And about Larra being Serenei of Lys - Larra left Westeros, and then supposedly died from unknown causes, when she was only 30 years old. Then years later, out of nowhere, appears this Serenei, and she looks very much like Larra. Just look at their pictures - it's the same person. And when I say, that they look alike, I mean not only that both of them are blondes, goodlooking, and have lilac eyes.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6a/Larra_Rogare.png

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/8/89/Serenei_of_Lys.jpg

They also have identical shape of lips, noses, ears, face proportions, hairlines (just draw a line from bridge of their noses up to their hair, both of them have hair parting in the same place - slightly to the right, from line, drawn up from their nose bridge).

Though maybe artist of World book just used same model, or digital base, for making those two portraits, and that's the reason why they are so alike.

About fAegon being son of Barristan and Lady Jeyne - she was mentioned in Barristan's entry in White book, he saved Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from Kingswood Brotherhood. Leader of those bandits was Simon Toyne, probably relative of Myles Toyne, who was captain-general of Golden Company. It happened in 281. So if Barristan and Jeyne has spent then a night together, then their child should turn 18 years old in 300 AC. Elia's son was born at the same time, so based on fAegon's age, he could be child of Barristan and Jeyne, from that one encounter.

When Aenys Blackfyre came to Westeros, he was at least 36-37 years old. By that time his children were already adults. Prior his arrival to 7K, Aenys was assured by Bloodraven, that he will be safe. And thus Aenys brought his family with him to Westeros. But he wasn't a fool, and thus he didn't took them to King's Landing. He didn't even informed Targaryens, that he came to Westeros not alone. Instead he left his family at Selmy's castle, Harvest Hall. That's because Selmys are Marcher Lords, and Marcher Lords supported Blackfyres during First Rebellion, and even killed King Maekar, during Peake's Uprising, which caused Bloodraven to gather that Great Council, after Maekar's death. So when Blackfyres later came to Westeros with their Fourth Rebellion, they didn't came there just to avenge Aenys' death. They also came there to take his family back to Essos. Could be that one of Aenys' daughters, either had an affair with young Lord Selmy, or even married with him. Could be that she died, while giving birth to Barristan. His mother's name is unknown. He was born between Aenys' execution, and arrival of Bittersteel to Westeros. He became member of Kingsguards, even though he was an only child of Lord Selmy. During his childhood, Barristan served as squire to Manfred Swann. Based on what Eustas Osgrey said to Dunk, and that Swann's castle Stonehelm is also part of Marches, seems that Swanns were also avid supporters of Blackfyres. Barristan has blue eyes, and GRRM avoided mentioning, what was Barristan's hair color during his youth, but I'm thinking it was either blond or silver-gold. 

And the reason why Lady Jeyne seduced Barristan, and why was staged that assault on her, by Kingswood Brotherhood, is because Blackfyres needed a baby with purer dragon blood, to be born on the night, when Red Comet will be crossing above King's Landing, 9 months later. Same as Targaryens, Blackfyres had a gift of foresign. So maybe they knew, that there will be a Red Comet, and for some reason they thought, that a child, that will be born then, will be the promised Prince. Rhaegar did the same mistake. So Blackfyres hired Kingswood Brotherhood, to pretend to attack Lady Jeyne, for Barristan Selmy to save her. Jeyne was working for Blackfyres, she was one of their agents, and also their distant relative, thru Johanna Swann. After Barristan saved her, she either seduced him, or even used on him magic, to get him in her bed. Like Egg's sister gave him love potion, to make him had sex with her, and then he would have had to marry with her. So maybe Jeyne's septa was actually a woodswitch, and her mission was to assist Jeyne, with getting Barristan into her bed. And 9 months later, at the same time, when Red Comet was passing above King's Landing, were born real Aegon and fAegon.

My ridiculous ideas could actually be right. There is basis for them in the books.

 

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I see where you are coming from. I don't agree with you, but I see why you think the way you do.

That quotes that you posted, about Varys and Illyrio, to me that conversation looked more like, subordinate complaining to his boss, that he can't complete his project on time, and thus he's asking his boss to work magic, and change conditions of that assignment. Not Illyrio scolding Varys for his failure - Littlefinger getting out of hand. ^_^

Edited by Megorova

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Hmm...I think the story about Illyrio's and Varys' partnership going all the way back to their youth is true.  I also think Aegon is fAegon, so to speak.  I think the boy is Illyrio's son with Serra (Sera?) and that Serra was a Blackfyre descendent.  Thus, I think they are trying to pass a Blackfyre (through the female line) off as a Targaryen.  I don't think Illyrio has any dragon blood at all.  I think his story to Tyrion is the truth - his motivation is to right the great wrong he feels was done to his beloved wife's family by placing their son on the Iron Throne.  I don't think his motivation has to be anything more than that. 

However, Varys' motivation is much stickier to figure out.  Right now, I think Varys and Serra maybe could have been brother and sister?  That would provide a plausible explanation of how Illyrio could have even met her.  But it could also be that Varys is a Brightflame?  But, if so, his motivation for supporting a Blackfyre stand-in for a Targaryen for the Iron Throne doesn't make much sense to me.  Because, as I said, I do believe fAegon is a Blackfyre through his mother.  That line about how the Blackfyres are extinct except through the female line seems like just too big of a clue to me.:dunno:       

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42 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

But it could also be that Varys is a Brightflame? 

Actually, based on timeframe, when Aerion was in exile in Lys, it's possible, that either he had an affair with one of Blackfyre girls (the other daughter of Rohanne of Tyrosh and Daemon I Blackfyre), or with one of Bittersteel's and Calla Blackfyre's daughters. Or maybe he had a child with someone unrelated to Blackfyres. But when that child grew up, he or she married with someone from Blackfyre or Bittersteel's family. And thus Varys or Illyrio could be descendants of Brightflame, but also descendants of Blackfyres. Or for example Varys may be descendant of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre, while Illyrio could be descendant of Brightflame. Or Illyrio is Brightflame, while Varys is Blackfyre and Brightflame. And thus could be, that the reason, why Varys has chosen Illyrio as his friend and companion, is because partially, they share the same blood - Aerion's, who is ancestor of them both.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is pretty much evidence for this idea. Aerion's son Maegor should have been to prominent to produce a legitimate son without the Iron Throne keeping track on that person, and that's only if that guy lived to breed.

Varys could always be a Targaryen bastard, though. If we enter bastard territory, Varys could actually be the child of not only Maegor but also of Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or even Aerys II. All they would have to do for that to happen is to make a pleasure trip to Lys somewhere in their life and impregnate some slave whore there. That is not that difficult. And we actually know literally nothing about the travels and exploits of both Prince Jaehaerys and Prince Aerys before they ascended to the Iron Throne.

Aerys could actually have made a grand tour of the Free Cities in his teens, accompanied by Tywin and/or Steffon.

Exactly. What's your thoughts on Maegor being the tattered prince? If he is the tattered prince it would definitely mean he lived long enough to sire a few kids on some wenches.

Varys definitely has some dragon blood in him. He's one of the few characters we never get a description of eye color for. In TWOIAF universe that's a major thing. Plus he most likely shaves his head just like egg as a means to hide the platinum blonde hair he probably has. 

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On 4/2/2018 at 2:12 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don't think so. To direct. I suspect a distant relative perhaps. 

He might be descended from Princess Lara Rogare.  Lara left her Targaryen husband to go back to Lys.

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On 4/2/2018 at 0:49 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

Any quotes from the books hinting towards this theory would be much appreciated. Thank you

Not directly. There is some possible info that could maybe hint toward a Brightflame connection though. Aerion did spend time in Lys during his exile, and the "bald as an egg" reference comes to mind. And we have no idea what happened to little Maegor. Varys certainly doesn't have to have any Targ blood, but it would be a nice little extra.

There's also the fact that he knows the Red Keep so well. When Maegor the Cruel had all the builders put to death so that only the blood of the dragon could ever know the castle's secrets, I doubt he left blueprints on file at the King's Landing city hall.

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20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 Varys certainly doesn't have to have any Targ blood, but it would be a nice little extra.

This. There is no text info on it but it would make sense 

20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's also the fact that he knows the Red Keep so well. When Maegor the Cruel had all the builders put to death so that only the blood of the dragon could ever know the castle's secrets, I doubt he left blueprints on file at the King's Landing city hall.

He is a master thief. And he did have almost two decades  to learn all the in's and outs. And he is an overall creepy dude, so secret passages and hidden doors work well with that 

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On 4/2/2018 at 0:49 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

Any quotes from the books hinting towards this theory would be much appreciated. Thank you

There are already threads on it. Look it up.

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On 4/2/2018 at 7:51 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And everyone is Azur Ahai, and bloodraven is responsible literally directly responsible for everything that happens in the series; he made Jaime push Bran, he made Tyrion kill Tywin, ge even made Jon go down on Ygritte.

Well, Jon at least badly needed to get laid and it seemed to mellow his EMO out a bit.

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On 02.04.2018 at 9:43 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

From the Dunk and Egg Novels we have Egg who is Aegon Targaryen shaving his head so people won't see his hair grow in silver when he is trying to hide his identity.

I believe it was Maegor the cruel who finished the Red keep?  and said that only the dragon shall ever know the secrets of the Red Keep.  Clearly Varys knows its secrets.

There are plenty of whores in king's landing with supposed "Targaryeni" features, does that make them blood of the dragon too? How did they survive the wrath of Bob who frequented brothels, by cutting of their hair when he was alive?

Silvery hair is a very common trait among the people of the freehold, or their descendants, not every silver blonde is a targ.

Second part actually has some merit though. Nice catch!

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8 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Varys definitely has some dragon blood in him. He's one of the few characters we never get a description of eye color for. In TWOIAF universe that's a major thing. Plus he most likely shaves his head just like egg as a means to hide the platinum blonde hair he probably has. 

That hair is nothing special, common folk of the former freehold have it also, with plenty of them working as whores in king's landing. Does that make them Targaryens? Are they part of a secret underground Targaryen restoration project and work as whores to breed a half-bred targaryen army and to gather the coin for equipping it?

Is Clydas with his pink eyes also a secret Targ and part of a Targarist cell in the wall? Planning to use the NW perhaps, as LC Hoare should've done to save his house?

 Or perhaps his cell is also breeding an army of Wildgaryens outside the wall and they'll open the gates when the time comes?

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4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

That hair is nothing special, common folk of the former freehold have it also, with plenty of them working as whores in king's landing. Does that make them Targaryens? Are they part of a secret underground Targaryen restoration project and work as whores to breed a half-bred targaryen army and to gather the coin for equipping it?

Is Clydas with his pink eyes also a secret Targ and part of a Targarist cell in the wall? Planning to use the NW perhaps, as LC Hoare should've done to save his house?

 Or perhaps his cell is also breeding an army of Wildgaryens outside the wall and they'll open the gates when the time comes?

No to answer all your questions, but the fact his eye color isn't mentioned at all is a major red flag you dumb wench. 

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14 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Exactly. What's your thoughts on Maegor being the tattered prince? If he is the tattered prince it would definitely mean he lived long enough to sire a few kids on some wenches.

It would be odd, but I'd actually like it. But in any case, the Tattered Prince is likely going to give us a lot of back story on Varys and Illyrio. He is from Pentos, after all, and there may be a reason as to why he had to go. Although it is not very likely that Varys and Illyrio had anything to do with it considering the man when they were either very young children or not even born.

14 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Varys definitely has some dragon blood in him. He's one of the few characters we never get a description of eye color for. In TWOIAF universe that's a major thing. Plus he most likely shaves his head just like egg as a means to hide the platinum blonde hair he probably has. 

While Varys' eye color has yet to be given in the books, there are official portraits of him which depict him with brown eyes. Illyrio also doesn't have purple eyes on his portraits, either, so it is not all that likely that either of them will suddenly get Valyrian eyes.

But this is not really necessary for them to be Targaryen/Blackfyre descendants. Rhaenyra's elder sons, Baelor Breakspear, Duncan Targaryen, Princess Rhaenys, and Jon Snow don't look Valyrian, either.

But, sure, there might be a reason as to why Varys shaves his head. He could have Valyrian hair and might be interested to not show that around. And Illyrio might dye his hair (body hair included) yellow to also not betray the fact that he has very prominent silver-golden hair (although that's not necessary, considering that some Valyrians may be blonder than others - there are also those with very weird pale silvery hair like Maekar which looks white).

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not directly. There is some possible info that could maybe hint toward a Brightflame connection though. Aerion did spend time in Lys during his exile, and the "bald as an egg" reference comes to mind. And we have no idea what happened to little Maegor. Varys certainly doesn't have to have any Targ blood, but it would be a nice little extra.

See above. If Varys has Targaryen/Blackfyre blood it is not unlikely that he is a bastard. And then pretty much anybody could be his father, even a male Blackfyre (illegitimate descendants wouldn't count as members of the male line of House Blackfyre; just as the male line descendants of all of the Unworthy's legitimized baseborn bastards are considered to be members of House Targaryen) or people like Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or Aerys II.

All they would have to do is to impregnate some slave whore in Lys. If they ever made a grand tour of the Free Cities (or just visited Lys) then they could have done that.

10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's also the fact that he knows the Red Keep so well. When Maegor the Cruel had all the builders put to death so that only the blood of the dragon could ever know the castle's secrets, I doubt he left blueprints on file at the King's Landing city hall.

Maegor must have left some maps. Those maps would have ended up in the possession of Jaehaerys I in the wake of Maegor's sudden death, and from there they would have been handed down from king to king who, in turn, would have granted the Masters of Whisperers they trusted - and who they wished to use the secret tunnels and listening posts to spy on their court - access to those maps.

Varys' ultimate source on the secrets of the Red Keep would be King Aerys II - if not personally, then insofar as Aerys II granted Varys access to the royal archives - the Crown archives as well as the private archives of House Targaryen (there must be such institutions, never mind that we never heard about them).

Varys never sounds like a guy who explored the secret tunnels all by himself. He knows too much about the castle, and he very much gives the impression that he has official information - like knowing how many dungeon levels King Maegor commanded to be build (all he could know about the dungeons levels without official information is how many there are, not who commanded that they be build - could have been Maegor, but it could also have been Aenys, Aegon, or Visenya).

A place like the hidden well he and Illyrio exit in AGoT seems to be a place pretty much nobody can find simply by exploring tunnels. The same goes for acquiring the keys for all the locked gates beneath the castle, etc. 

The bottom line there is that Aerys II really must have trusted Varys a lot - and that's technically where his parentage could come into play. Perhaps Aerys II knew that Varys was his son, half-brother, or half-uncle? He might even have been willing to trust a son of Prince Maegor, if that man never challenged the rule of Aegon V.

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Quotes:

AGOT, Eddard VII: "He had never seen the eunuch dress in anything but silk and velvet and the richest damasks, and this man smelled of sweat instead of lilacs."

ACOK, Tyrion II: "When they were done, Varys came gliding into the hall, wearing flowing lavender robes that matched his smell."

ASOS, Tyrion IX: "Powdered, primped, and smelling of rosewater, the Spider rubbed his hands one over the other all the time he spoke."

Lilac and lavender are shades of blue color. And the most fragrant roses in Westeros, are blue winter roses of Winterfell. So probably Varys' rosewater is made out of blue roses. Varys smells of lilacs, lavender, and blue roses, so his smell is "blue". 

This could be a hint, that color of his eyes is some shade of blue - dark or pale blue, or indigo, purple, violet, lilac, lavender, etc.

In combination with him shaving off his hair, like Egg did, when he was hiding, that he's a Targaryen, could be a hint, that Varys is a dragonblood.

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

That hair is nothing special, common folk of the former freehold have it also, with plenty of them working as whores in king's landing. Does that make them Targaryens? Are they part of a secret underground Targaryen restoration project

Though, unlike Varys, none of them doesn't have connection with Golden Company.

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

No to answer all your questions, but the fact his eye color isn't mentioned at all is a major red flag you dumb wench. 

So, he shaves his supposedly platin hair because it's a give away for being a targ, while being very common for those of freehold descent but somehow his supposedly purplish targ eyes, a  feature not so common as the hair among freehold descent(because of other eye colors) isn't a give away. Yea how dumb of me. Some smartass you are.

Edit: Just to be clear, Freeholders have a range of eye colors but Targs mostly have violet/purple whatever, it is a defining feature of their family.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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There is a very good alternative explanation for why Varys shaves his head clean (which he must do daily, no?): To effect a "mummer's cut," as defined in one of Arya's chapters in Braavos. 

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