Which region will suffer most from Winter?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

 

4 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 what struck me about some of the first wights we met - Otho and Flowers - The NW were able to drag them back to Castle Black without any trouble (apart from spooked horses and dogs) - it wasn't until the night time that they re-animated and went for the LC.

This made me think that whoever re-animated Otho and Flowers knew what he was doing.  It was a trick--let them take the bait and then wight them on the other side of the wall.  It has puzzled me why the Others had not completely assimilated the Wildlings north of the wall, but instead allowed Mance to unite them over a long span of time, then slowly march them south, and eventually through the wall, with only minor harassment from the Others.  The Others could have annihilated them at any point, with ease.  But they did not, and Jon Snow (who knows nothing) invited them through the wall.  What if that is what the Others wanted to happen?  Then once they are through the magical ward, get them kill each other on the south side and wight them then?  We know they can control wights through the wall. 

This dovetails with the idea that the Night's Watch wasn't formed to stop the Others, but to ensure that there were bodies at the wall to be wighted when the time came--(corpse reserve corps)

[kissdbyfire]

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maybe because Coldhands is/was Benjen Stark, and there's something in Starks' blood, that prevents them, from becoming controlled by the Others, even after their death. So they can rise as wights, but they are not like those, that have no Stark blood, they don't become mindless monsters, like all the rest.

Well, I'm convinced Coldhands is not Benjen Stark, so only works for me if he is some other Stark, long dead. But I don't think so.

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

It didn't looked like the process of wightification is fast.

Remember Waymar Royce? He was killed and immediately became a wight.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Im laughing my Leechie hiney off at parts of this conversation because it is a straight lml ripoff that is being passed as someone else’s idea.  And from the same who in the past have condemned lml for being crackpot before, which he is most of the time, but to claim it as your own is dishonest. 

LOL, since I assume I'm the guy you are referring to here, I've speculated about this long before your or LmL even joined this board. And I've no idea that he also realized that this stuff is important.

Ever since it became (reasonably) clear that Coldhands wasn't a puppet to somebody else's strings but rather actually a creature with the remnants of a genuine person was it reasonable to assume stuff like that. There is a reason why we have the whole 'second life' thing introduced in ADwD; Varamyr disappearance into a wolf is completely irrelevant, but the concept as such is not. Else it wouldn't have been featured this prominently in the story. At first I was flabbergasted by Varamyr's complete disappearance from the story. Why had George him 'survive' in his wolf only to never show up again in a meaningful fashion.

It will become important in the whole Jon thing, and it might become important in the background of the whole Coldhands thing. Although that's likely just a piece in the Jon puzzle, not important in its own right. If Coldhands was an important character, he would have featured more prominently in ADwD instead of being left out of the cave/story like a dog.

If you think about for a moment - before ADwD, skinchangers just controlled animals. There was no reason to believe they would end up stuck in them after their physical deaths. That's all metaphysics from the Prologue we didn't really need unless they are important to the plot. Nobody cares in what cat Arya is going to continue living after she died in some wheelchair 80+ years after the end of the series.

But if the whole concept means that souls can be transferred or possess other bodies then this is likely going to become a relevant plot point.

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Maybe because Coldhands is/was Benjen Stark, and there's something in Starks' blood, that prevents them, from becoming controlled by the Others, even after their death. So they can rise as wights, but they are not like those, that have no Stark blood, they don't become mindless monsters, like all the rest.

If Coldhands was Bran's uncle then the boy is just a moron. Hodor would then have a better chance to defeat the Others than this boy who cannot really recognize his uncle.

Quote

There passed several days between death of Small Paul, and him coming after Sam. The place where Small Paul was killed by the Other, was not that far from Craster's keep. Otherwise Sam would have been unable to get there. It was dawn, shortly after Sam killed the Other. So it seems, that Sam and Brothers that were with him, arrived to Craster's on the same day. And it seems, that between Sam's arrival there, and his next chapter passed 9 days. 

This doesn't make much sense (and that's not me being 'evil', it just doesn't make a lot of sense). You suppose that the Small Paul wight would have been after Sam and Gilly immediately after his creation - why should he do that? You also seem to ignore the fact that the wights do not necessarily have fixed or clear goals when they 'wake up'. And then there is the fact that they are not that fast and usually dormant during the day.

The discussion went in that direction because we talked about the possibility of the Others raising all the dead in the south of Westeros at once after the Wall is fallen and their magic extends to the entire continent (which is a claim certain people make).

I pointed out that they apparently can't do that, either, beyond the Wall, so there is no reason to believe they will be able to do that down in the south - at least not while they are not also physically close. If a contingent of Others raced down to Dorne after the Wall has fallen they could also raise the dead in the Sands, presumably.

If the Others suddenly had the powers to raise all the dead everywhere they would be literally unstoppable.

4 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

This made me think that whoever re-animated Otho and Flowers knew what he was doing.  It was a trick--let them take the bait and then wight them on the other side of the wall.  It has puzzled me why the Others had not completely assimilated the Wildlings north of the wall, but instead allowed Mance to unite them over a long span of time, then slowly march them south, and eventually through the wall, with only minor harassment from the Others.  The Others could have annihilated them at any point, with ease.  But they did not, and Jon Snow (who knows nothing) invited them through the wall.  What if that is what the Others wanted to happen?  Then once they are through the magical ward, get them kill each other on the south side and wight them then?  We know they can control wights through the wall.

Oh, I laid out above how I think Mance and his wildlings figure into the plans of the Others. The Others could have taken them on, just as they did with the Watch at the Fist. But they did not really trouble them. No concentrated attacks of wight armies, no traps, etc.

Why is that? Because the Others do know that the wildlings and the Watch aren't friends. They use Mance and his people to weaken the defense of the Watch, and they help with that by drawing out the NW to weaken them further. If Mance had opened the gates for them they might have been to just walk their dead through afterwards. Why waste wights on this business, if Mag the Mighty (Moron) can open the gates for them?

The idea that the Wall is some super barrier preventing the wights and Others to cross it under any circumstances isn't very likely. The wights should be able to climb over it and they sure as hell can be drawn through the tunnels the Watch cut through the ice. Why should they be able to walk through those tunnels as well? The Wall might defend itself against that collapsing the tunnels when they try - like it breaks off ice to shake off humans who are not supposed to climb over it - but I don't think that some magic force is going to prevent the Others/wights to walk the tunnels.

If that was really true one wonders why said magic didn't prevent the Watch from dragging the wights through the tunnels? Should there have been some invisible wall the wights could not pass, never mind how hard the black brothers tried?

The Black Gate beneath the Nightfort would be another matter - that would be a place of strong magic, originally the only place you could pass the Wall. It would have been specifically designed to prevent Others, wights, unnatural creatures of any kind, and perhaps even human beings who don't know the words and who have not sworn the oath of the Night's Watch to pass beneath the Wall.

I mean, there is a reason why Sam swore his vows in a the weirwood grove. The Black Gate is made from living weirwood, too. It might know that Sam swore his vow, and in the end that might be the reason why it opened. It could very well be that it wouldn't have opened for a man who swore his vows in a sept.

But even with Stannis breaking the wildlings, everything is going pretty much according to plan, anyway. The wildlings at the Wall create tension there, Stannis and the Boltons are weakening the North even further, and the end of Mance allows the Others fill up the ranks of their wights.

Anybody crossing the forest to try to send help to Hardhome would just suffer the same fate as Mormont at the Fist. And it should be much easier now for the Others since winter has come. Their time has come.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, since I assume

Really? 

 

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Remember Waymar Royce? He was killed and immediately became a wight.

That's probably because the source of "infection" (the Other) was nearby.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

At first I was flabbergasted by Varamyr's complete disappearance from the story. Why had George him 'survive' in his wolf only to never show up again in a meaningful fashion.

Bran met him, and made him and his, Summer's pack.

ADWD, Bran I:

Quote

Long leagues away, the boy stirred uneasily.

Black. Night’s Watch. They were Night’s Watch.

The direwolf did not care. They were meat. He was hungry.

The eyes of the three wolves glowed yellow. The direwolf swung his head from side to side, nostrils flaring, then bared his fangs in a snarl. The younger male backed away. The direwolf could smell the fear in him. Tail, he knew. But the one-eyed wolf answered with a growl and moved to block his advance. Head. And he does not fear me though I am twice his size.

Their eyes met.

Warg!

Then the two rushed together, wolf and direwolf, and there was no more time for thought. The world shrank down to tooth and claw, snow flying as they rolled and spun and tore at one another, the other wolves snarling and snapping around them. His jaws closed on matted fur slick with hoarfrost, on a limb thin as a dry stick, but the one-eyed wolf clawed at his belly and tore himself free, rolled, lunged for him. Yellow fangs snapped closed on his throat, but he shook off his old grey cousin as he would a rat, then charged after him, knocked him down. Rolling, ripping, kicking, they fought until the both of them were ragged and fresh blood dappled the snows around them. But finally the old one-eyed wolf lay down and showed his belly. The direwolf snapped at him twice more, sniffed at his butt, then lifted a leg over him.

A few snaps and a warning growl, and the female and the tail submitted too. The pack was his.

ADWD, Prologue:

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Wargs have no fear of man, as wolves do. Hate and hunger coiled in his belly, and he gave a low growl, calling to his one-eyed brother, to his small sly sister. As he raced through the trees, his packmates followed hard on his heels. They had caught the scent as well. As he ran, he saw through their eyes too and glimpsed himself ahead.

Quote

The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting. A hundred ravens took to the air, cawing as they felt him pass. A great elk trumpeted, unsettling the children clinging to his back. A sleeping direwolf raised his head to snarl at empty air. Before their hearts could beat again he had passed on, searching for his own, for One Eye, Sly, and Stalker, for his pack. His wolves would save him, he told himself.

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

Valamir's wolves - pack of three - a female Sly, one-eyed male One Eye, and a younger wolf Stalker. Seems that Valamir was able to switch between them. In the beginning of Prologue, he was in the body of a younger wolf, but by the time he has met Bran-Summer, he was in the body of one-eyed wolf, that's where his soul "landed" after his death. 

So now that warged wolf (or wolves, all three of them Valamir's skins) is a part of Summer's pack. So Valamir isn't gone from the books. Thus later he can help Bran to escape from the Children. And if they will survive and get on the other side of The Wall, then Valamyr can met Jon.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This doesn't make much sense (and that's not me being 'evil', it just doesn't make a lot of sense). You suppose that the Small Paul wight would have been after Sam and Gilly immediately after his creation - why should he do that?

Because Sam found out, that the Others could be killed by dragonglass. The Other that killed Small Paul, was killed by Sam. So maybe that Other has "programmed" wight Small Paul to go and kill Sam, to avenge that Other's death, and to stop Sam from revealing to other people, that dragonglass can kill the Others.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You also seem to ignore the fact that the wights do not necessarily have fixed or clear goals when they 'wake up'.

Some don't, but some does. Like that one, that went to kill Lord Commander, or that one from Prologue of AGOT. Or this one that came after Sam.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The discussion went in that direction because we talked about the possibility of the Others raising all the dead in the south of Westeros at once after the Wall is fallen and their magic extends to the entire continent (which is a claim certain people make).

I pointed out that they apparently can't do that, either, beyond the Wall, so there is no reason to believe they will be able to do that down in the south - at least not while they are not also physically close. If a contingent of Others raced down to Dorne after the Wall has fallen they could also raise the dead in the Sands, presumably.

If the Others suddenly had the powers to raise all the dead everywhere they would be literally unstoppable.

Have you watched The Walking Dead? The concept there, is that all people, all over the world are already infected with zombie-virus. There's no need for them to be bitten by a zombie, to turn into one. When someone will die, that person will turn into zombie. And the reason of death is insignificant.

It seems that in ASOIAF is used the same concept, with only difference - zombie-virus is everywhere, but its power can't go over The Wall. Doesn't matter what causes death of people in the Land of Always Winter, after they die, they all become wights, whether they were killed by the Others, or by wights, or by someone else, or died from illness, or hunger, or cold. 

So theoretically, if The Wall will fall, then the Others indeed will be able to raise all the dead, and turn them into wights. It seems that their power works like vector-radiation - it spreads everywhere, but when it meets an obstacle, such as The Wall, infused with protection spells, it's getting blocked, and it also can't go over the water, it sort of gets dispersed or dilluted in the water. So it can't pass from one continent to the other, but on the ground it can go unhindered by any other obstacles, except The Wall. Thus no Wall, equals to all Westeros under winter magic.

[Faera]

Well, depending on how far south and harsh it gets. Presumably all the regions make provisions for winter. Since this will probably be the winter to end all winters, though, all the regions will see their own set of problems. 

I would say the Reach would suffer worse. They are the bread basket of Westeros and so much of their industry relies on the fields and vineyards. A long and harsh winter would kill that and lead to famine across Westeros. What little food the Reach will have, they might not be able to sell due to inflation, and eventually they simply may not be able to bring in a harvest at all. Their livelihoods rely on their climate, so they seem like a region whose people wouldn’t know how to deal a long, long winter that turns their fields into barren wasteland. I would say they’d even take it harder than Dorne for that reason alone. Dorne might not see snow but they know how to make much of little. Plus, they’ll be the last and hardest region for the Others to get to should the Wall be breached.

I mean, obviously the North will have the harshest climate and weather to contend with in Winter because geography. The point is that they are better equipped to deal with what winter brings. Same with places like the Vale. The further south you get, the less likely you’ll find a people able to deal with it.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the Wall is some super barrier preventing the wights and Others to cross it under any circumstances isn't very likely.

"It may be that its earliest foundations were of stone "  "They led their horses down a narrow tunnel cut through the ice, cold dark walls pressing in around them as the passage twisted and turned." "black cold tunnel" " cold and dark beneath the ice, in the narrow tunnel that crooked and slithered through the Wall."  Look at this image of a torch-lit ice cave it is not dark or black, it is red, white, and pink, and well lit.

I have thought that these original stone foundations of the wall were built by the Great Empire of the Dawn out of the "Other-repellent" fused black stone--very similar to the 5 Forts. That is why it was critical that Otho hadn't been reanimated yet when dragged through the wall--it would have dissolved him, like the dragonglass does to the Others.  I think the First Keep in Winterfell with the Gargoyles. was built by the Great Empire also, and the founders of House Stark (and Bolton) were the handful of Great Empire citizens who survived the last Long Night--with their King's Blood, and spooky eye colors.  They then re-occupied these structures, and have built around and on top of remains of their former great civilization.

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They use Mance and his people to weaken the defense of the Watch, and they help with that by drawing out the NW to weaken them further.

That is one possibility.  But the Watch are crows, and "Crows are all liars" " The crow had tricked him"  "The black crow is a tricksy bird. I trust him not." " Did you think only crows could lie?"  Crows cannot be trusted, Bran means "crow" in Welsh, and they were his pets on the First Keep, and his spirit-animal is the 3-eyed crow, and Loki is the "evil crow" in Norse mythology (who I think is the Night's King/Bran). 

I think Bran founded the Night's Watch, and gave them the nick-name "crows"  I think the Night's Watch is there to be the Others' Army, not to oppose them.  They are tricksy, they cannot be trusted.  Their stated intention is to protect the realm, therefore their real intention is to do the opposite.  Think about the villainous scum who are in the Night's Watch, who would want them in their army besides one who could completely control their bodies.  But Bran's plan didn't really work, as the Night's Watch was neglected and vastly understaffed.  So plan B is the Wildling Army?

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes.

I really like LmL's idea that the Night's King might be a disembodied consciousness that can occupy any body--and thus cannot be killed.  If he loses the battle with the Last Hero--the Last Hero then becomes the new Night's King, the consciousness merely switches bodies and continues on. 

Change of subject, this talk about Varamyr made me look into him for the first time.

Varamyr's name is a combination of Vara (From Dungeons and Dragons, Vara is the Touv goddess of Nightmares and Fear. Her symbol is a necklace of mummified animal feet. Vara prefers to be depicted as a Touv woman with red eyes and stars in her hair. Vara is the first child of Meyanok, and considers herself to be superior to her younger brother Damaran and younger sister Berna. She uses her status as the eldest to compel them to do her bidding. Like her father, Vara loathes the other Touv gods, and revels in the act of twisting their minds. Like the other Touv gods, Vara dwells on the Material Plane.

and Myr (a unit of a quantity of 1,000,000 years)

Varamyr is loaded with weirwood/Odin symbolism, is the a powerful skinchanger, and goes into the weirwood when he dies.  His chosen name implies he/the weirwood is a god of Nightmares and Fear, who revels in twisting peoples' minds, and has been around for a 1,000,000 years.  That is exactly how I described the Weirwood in my Interstellar Weirwood Conspiracy.

 

[Walda]

11 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

That is why it was critical that Otho hadn't been reanimated yet when dragged through the wall--it would have dissolved him, like the dragonglass does to the Others.

Otho was a wight, made of flesh and bone, pulled through the gate by Night's watchmen, made of the same. Neither dragonglass nor ravens stop wights:

Quote

 The raven on his shoulder ripped a strip of flesh from his pale ruined cheek. Sam held the dagger before him, breathing like a blacksmith’s bellows...He clutched the dagger with both hands to hold it steady. The wight did not seem to fear the dragonglass. Perhaps he did not know what it was...
There was no time to think or pray or be afraid. Samwell Tarly threw himself forward and plunged the dagger down into Small Paul’s back. Half-turned, the wight never saw him coming. The raven gave a shriek and took to the air. “You’re dead!” Sam screamed as he stabbed. “You’re dead, you’re dead.” He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul’s heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool.Sam’s wail made a white mist in the black air. He dropped the useless hilt and took a hasty step backwards as Small Paul twisted around. Before he could get out his other knife, the steel knife that every brother carried, the wight’s black hands locked beneath his chins. Paul’s fingers were so cold they seemed to burn. They burrowed deep into the soft flesh of Sam’s throat.

(ASoS,Ch.46 Samwell III)

The wights dissolving from obsidian is the only thing I can see that the text explicitly contradicts. Also, thinking about it, I'm not sure the white walkers would be affected by obsidian tunnels covered in ice - until Sam's obsidian dagger was in Ser Puddle's throat, it had no effect on him. I'm thinking, if the Others are not in direct contact with the obsidian, they might be fine, that the ice might work like a plastic coating on an electrical wire.

Also, in the book the oily black stone and obsidian are spoken of as two different things. Stannis claims to have obsidian mines under Dragonstone, he doesn't claim that either Dragonstone or Storm's End are made of obsidian.

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Otho was a wight [when] pulled through the gate by Night's watchmen

We don't know if Othor was reanimated before going through the wall, they only mention the blue eyes when the are back at Castle Black.  All we know is that his hand was black.  But I also noticed that those bodies were strategically placed right next to the weirwood grove where the Watch says its vows, for them to find.

 

8 minutes ago, Walda said:

Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that description sounds like the dagger shattered on the chain mail and did not actually penetrate the skin. 

 

9 minutes ago, Walda said:

Also, in the book the oily black stone and obsidian are spoken of as two different things. Stannis claims to have obsidian mines under Dragonstone, he doesn't claim that either Dragonstone or Storm's End are made of obsidian.

Yeah, its hard to figure out what the distinction is. 

At Dragonstone "He leaned against the battlement, the sea crashing beneath him, the black stone rough beneath his fingers"

But at Volantis a structure which is fused black stone is referred to as simply black stone: "The gateway to the Long Bridge was a black stone arch carved with sphinxes, manticores, dragons, and creatures stranger still. Beyond the arch stretched the great span that the Valyrians had built at the height of their glory, its fused stone roadway supported by massive piers.

 

At battle isle "the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle."  But then later "The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not"

So, just because something is not described as "fused black stone" doesn't mean that that is not what it really is.  Dragonstone ought to be made out of fused black stone, given that it was made by Valyrians--but it is never described as "fused black stone."  Also, it just happens to have obsidian mines underneath (from the dragons or is it naturally occurring?)

 

Is dragonglass the same as dragonstone? 

According to Sam and the maesters, dragonglass is really just obsidian, a plain non-magical black volcanic glass

Quote

"Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

"The m-maesters think not," Sam stammered. "The maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth. They call it obsidian."

 

"Dragonglass," Osha named it . . .  "Obsidian," Maester Luwin insisted,

The cache Jon finds "Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian."

Armen crossed his arms. "Obsidian does not burn."

"Dragonglass," Pate said. "The smallfolk call it dragonglass." Somehow that seemed important.

 

"The dragonglass blade was sharper than steel, albeit far more brittle."

 

"Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it."

 

"The children of the forest used dragonglass blades," he said. "They'd know where to find obsidian."

 

 

Glass candles

Quote

Armen the Acolyte:  "only a candle of obsidian. . . .  Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. "

 

 

But Mel and Marwyn think dragonglass is something more exotic than plain obsidian

Quote

[referring to the glass candle] ". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room . . ."Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."  "What feeds the flame?" asked Sam.  "What feeds a dragon's fire?"

 

"Dragonglass." The red woman's laugh was music. "Frozen fire, in the tongue of old Valyria. Small wonder it is anathema to these cold children of the Other."

"On Dragonstone, where I had my seat, there is much of this obsidian to be seen in the old tunnels beneath the mountain,"

 

Fused stone is described as rock melted by dragons, with some magic added to the mix.  Volcanic glass is molten rock that is cooled quickly.  Therefore dragonstone is technically dragonglass

Quote

The dragonlords of Valryia, as is well-known, possessed the art of turning stone to liquid with dragonflame, shaping it as they would, then fusing it harder than iron, steel, or granite.

 

The Black Wall that had been raised by the Valyrians when Volantis was no more than an outpost of their empire: a great oval of fused stone two hundred feet high and so thick that six four-horse chariots could race around its top abreast,

 

"these seamless walls of fused black dragonstone, harder than steel or diamond "

 

Tyrosh, an altogether harder city, began as a military outpost, as its inner walls of fused black dragonstone testify. Valryian records tell us

 

Certain scholars from the west have suggested Valyrian involvement in the construction of the Five Forts, for the great walls are single slabs of fused black stone that resemble certain Valyrian citadels in the west

 

[Battle Isle] "The fused black stone of which it is made suggests Valyria, but the plain, unadorned style of architecture does not"

 

[Naath] "the Valyrians erected a fort there whose walls of fused dragonstone can still be seen"

 

Oily

Quote

the Seastone Chair, carved in the shape of a great kraken from an immense block of oily black stone

Yeen. A ruin older than time, built of oily black stone

 

Greasy

Quote

On the Isle of Toads can be found an ancient idol, a greasy black stone crudely carved into the semblance of a gigantic toad of malignant aspect

Few places in the known world are as remote as Asshai, and fewer are as forbidding. Travelers tell us that the city is built entirely of black stone: halls, hovels, temples, palaces, streets, walls, bazaars, all. Some say as well that the stone of Asshai has a greasy, unpleasant feel to it, that it seems to drink the light, dimming tapers and torches and hearth fires alike.

 

I am thinking that plain obsidian is not dragonglass, but happens to look exactly like it.  The Night's Watch may have pieces of both mixed up.  Sam thought the glass candle was plain obsidian, but Marwyn corrected him that it is dragonglass, something more exotic--because obsidian does not burn,  And Marwyn knows what is up.  Dragonglass, glass candles, and fused black stone structures have "magical" qualities that they are imbued with during fabrication, that obsidian does not possess.  I think the dagger that killed Ser Puddles was dragonglass/dragonstone not plain obsidian.  Could be that Sam's dagger that shattered was plain obsidian and would not have killed an Other.  Not sure yet.

[kissdbyfire]

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

We don't know if Othor was reanimated before going through the wall, they only mention the blue eyes when the are back at Castle Black.  All we know is that his hand was black.  But I also noticed that those bodies were strategically placed right next to the weirwood grove where the Watch says its vows, for them to find.

Nope, the blue eyes were noticed when they found the bodies, on the north side of the Wall. 

AGoT, Jon VII 

"Othor," announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, "beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers." He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes. "They were Ben Stark's men, both of them." 

My uncle's men, Jon thought numbly. He remembered how he'd pleaded to ride with them. Gods, I was such a green boy. If he had taken me, it might be me lying here …

---

"This … this is all wrong," Sam Tarly said earnestly. "The blood … there's bloodstains on their clothes, and … and their flesh, dry and hard, but … there's none on the ground, or … anywhere. With those … those … those …" Sam made himself swallow, took a deep breath. "With those wounds … terrible wounds … there should be blood all over. Shouldn't there?"

Dywen sucked at his wooden teeth. "Might be they didn't die here. Might be someone brought 'em and left 'em for us. A warning, as like." The old forester peered down suspiciously. "And might be I'm a fool, but I don't know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore." 

Ser Jaremy looked startled. "Neither did Flowers," he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope, the blue eyes were noticed when they found the bodies, on the north side of the Wall.

You are correct.  I was mixing it up with a certain hbo show that shall remain nameless. 

Spoiler

But that episode was written by George, and Othor's eyes don't change until he is through the wall.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, By Odin's Beard said:

You are correct.  I was mixing it up with a certain hbo show that shall remain nameless. 

  Hide contents

But that episode was written by George, and Othor's eyes don't change until he is through the wall.

 

I have no idea what the abomination did or didn't do, nor do I care!

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

On the subject of whether George changed his mind about the rules of Black Stone fortresses and their warding spells, Melisandre had to sneak her shadow baby under the walls at Storms End--it could not pass through the wall, it had to go under.

Quote

"this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass—ancient, forgotten, yet still in place."

 

Quote

"The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it . . . old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall."

If Coldhands cannot pass through the wall, why could Othor and Jaffer? 

Gorn's way goes under the wall.  Is that one of the reasons why the Others are interested in Bloodraven's cave, it is one of the entrances to Gorn's tunnels under the wall?

[HexMachina]

8 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

On the subject of whether George changed his mind about the rules of Black Stone fortresses and their warding spells, Melisandre had to sneak her shadow baby under the walls at Storms End--it could not pass through the wall, it had to go under.

 

If Coldhands cannot pass through the wall, why could Othor and Jaffer? 

Gorn's way goes under the wall.  Is that one of the reasons why the Others are interested in Bloodraven's cave, it is one of the entrances to Gorn's tunnels under the wall?

Are they though? There are wights outside the cave but that’s likely just the presence of living somethings drawing them

[kissdbyfire]

11 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

On the subject of whether George changed his mind about the rules of Black Stone fortresses and their warding spells, Melisandre had to sneak her shadow baby under the walls at Storms End--it could not pass through the wall, it had to go under.

 

If Coldhands cannot pass through the wall, why could Othor and Jaffer? 

Gorn's way goes under the wall.  Is that one of the reasons why the Others are interested in Bloodraven's cave, it is one of the entrances to Gorn's tunnels under the wall?

I do think there are passages connecting the north and south sides of the Wall. Maybe that underground river runs a very long way, and we know there's also a sinkhole that takes you out of the cave. But we don't know where you'll find yourself on the other side. Could be an 'out of the fire, into the frying pan' scenario. 

But I'm not convinced a passage to the south side of the Wall is the reason why the wights are at/near the entrance.

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Are they though? There are wights outside the cave but that’s likely just the presence of living somethings drawing them

 

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

You both latched onto the less important part of that post, what about the rules of "warding spells" and how Othor got through the wall when Coldhands can't. 

[kissdbyfire]

24 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

You both latched onto the less important part of that post, what about the rules of "warding spells" and how Othor got through the wall when Coldhands can't. 

Othor wasn't an active wight when he was taken through to the south side.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

But his eyes were blue.  That means he was actively being reanimated.

[HexMachina]

7 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

You both latched onto the less important part of that post, what about the rules of "warding spells" and how Othor got through the wall when Coldhands can't. 

I’ve always found that odd myself too. I wonder if he had actually ‘risen’ prior to that? I know the eyes had changed, but perhaps he hadn’t yet been ‘active’ and so could be dragged through.

We’ve also never seen a Wight actually try and pass a warded place so we do t know exactly what would happen. Would the magic animating them simply cease? Would they burn, dissolve, rot? I don’t know, but intriguing to think about