Which region will suffer most from Winter?

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, Walda said:

but the South has no proper shelter for their animals (and no notion of slaughtering and hanging them before the freeze), they have no proper facilities for storing their grain and roots below the frost, their roofs are not reinforced to deal with the snow, their plants and trees have no natural defences. Their clothes are inadequate, they have no snow shoes, no sleighs. They have made no massive stores of firewood, and outside of Harrenhal they have no massive hearths of massive stone. And even Harrenhal's hearths are not designed to keep the heat in the hall, let alone burn a body that froze in the night.

I think you are over exaggerating their ability to be unprepared for long and harsh winter. 70 years ago, there was winter that laster 6 years. Then there was at least two more winters, that laster for more than a year, 272-274, 280-282. It was 20-30 years ago. I don't think, that during both of those winters, people of 7K's regions, were doing nothing, to protect their families and houses, fields, gardens, farms and livestock, and harvests, from being damaged by cold weather. And 20 years is not that long. If then, they have build something, to protect them against cold, then most likely, it is still there.

[Walda]

@Megorova, I'm working on the assumption that they haven't seen a winter like this for 8000 years - or whenever the last time the Others returned was.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

16 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

The Reach is the most fertile region in Westeros.

Yes, but are they growing food like we see the Riverlands folk do in ACOK? Their farms are devastated. Besides, the food to KL would come from Riverlands because the region is closer. And KL is the most populated city on Westeros. 

[kissdbyfire]

54 minutes ago, Walda said:

@Megorova, I'm working on the assumption that they haven't seen a winter like this for 8000 years - or whenever the last time the Others returned was.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, Walda said:

Riverlands.

The North is going to have harsher weather, but the people and the animals and the plants are better prepared for harsh weather. 

The South is going to be dealing with weather it has never had to deal with, and that is going to be disruptive.

I'm remembering when the town I lived in, in Australia, was snowed in for two days. If it had been in Canada, (or even Florida) there would have been snow ploughs to clear the roads and railways and airports. The place would have been inaccessible for a few hours at most. As it was, not only was the town cut off from everywhere outside, one half of the town was inaccessible from the other because deep drifts and ice blocked all crossings of the creek. Also, the colleges were cut off from the university (and even more remarkably, on the first day of exams.)

This massively disruptive snow storm was never more than a few inches deep. The weather during most of these two days was clear and sunny. It was just that we had no snow smarts and no equipment to deal with settled snow that didn't just melt away of its own accord. Also, not big on furnaces, central heating, double glazing. No snow shoes or skis (although, plenty of improvised sleds).

So yes, the North is going to be snowed in, and the wights are likely to attack there first, but the South has no proper shelter for their animals (and no notion of slaughtering and hanging them before the freeze), they have no proper facilities for storing their grain and roots below the frost, their roofs are not reinforced to deal with the snow, their plants and trees have no natural defences. Their clothes are inadequate, they have no snow shoes, no sleighs. They have made no massive stores of firewood, and outside of Harrenhal they have no massive hearths of massive stone. And even Harrenhal's hearths are not designed to keep the heat in the hall, let alone burn a body that froze in the night.

The population of the Riverlands is much denser, and while they believe in skin changers, they don't believe in Others any more than in Old Gods. It is not going to go well for the Riverlands, and worse for Oldtown, where they can't imagine the Mander freezing over, and the maesters and septons both are set up especially not to deal with risen dead.

Great details in this post. I totally get the regional comparisons. My good friend lives down in Souhth Carolina and recently they had to borrow snow trucks from somewhere else because they had “too much” snow for what they are used to (not) dealing with. Unlike where I live when you have to have your snow boots out next to your flip flops with the cute elephant pattern on them. 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Great details in this post. I totally get the regional comparisons. My good friend lives down in Souhth Carolina and recently they had to borrow snow trucks from somewhere else because they had “too much” snow for what they are used to (not) dealing with. Unlike where I live when you have to have your snow boots out next to your flip flops with the cute elephant pattern on them. 

Yeah, that was a great post by @Walda. I agreed w/ her but quoting a subsequent post of hers, w/ which I also agree btw. 

And I saw what you did there!  

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Walda said:

@Megorova, I'm working on the assumption that they haven't seen a winter like this for 8000 years - or whenever the last time the Others returned was.

Yes, for winter like that, none of them can be prepared, even The North, or wildlings.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Walda said:

So yes, the North is going to be snowed in, and the wights are likely to attack there first, but the South has no proper shelter for their animals (and no notion of slaughtering and hanging them before the freeze), they have no proper facilities for storing their grain and roots below the frost, their roofs are not reinforced to deal with the snow, their plants and trees have no natural defences. Their clothes are inadequate, they have no snow shoes, no sleighs. They have made no massive stores of firewood, and outside of Harrenhal they have no massive hearths of massive stone. And even Harrenhal's hearths are not designed to keep the heat in the hall, let alone burn a body that froze in the night.

Sorry, but just because the guys in the US (and the Australians, and other people I know) fail to prepare properly for winter weather doesn't mean the people in the Seven Kingdoms are cut from the same cloth.

In fact, that makes no sense. We know that people prepare for winter all over the place.

This is a world where years-long-winters are a thing for millennia. People know them and people prepare for them. Just because people in the south don't wear their warm clothes in summer - and just because Stannis' band of dispossessed rebels failed to go collect their winter gear in the Crownlands, Stormlands, and Reach - doesn't mean they don't have any.

Now, it is very likely that the people in the Stormlands and the Reach (and perhaps even around Oldtown, the Arbor, and in Dorne where it snows almost never in winter) are not going to be properly prepared for that winter, but the people in the Riverlands, the West, the Vale, and the Crownlands not only know winter, they also properly prepare for to the best of their ability and knowledge.

They might not have enough but they certainly will be prepared up to a point. Just as the Northmen are. It will likely not be enough.

11 hours ago, Walda said:

The population of the Riverlands is much denser, and while they believe in skin changers, they don't believe in Others any more than in Old Gods. It is not going to go well for the Riverlands, and worse for Oldtown, where they can't imagine the Mander freezing over, and the maesters and septons both are set up especially not to deal with risen dead.

I'd prefer to be in Oldtown than in some hovel considering that they have stone houses there and a city wall there. They help to keep the cold out and the warmth in, not to mention that both form a rather severe obstacle to the living dead. Last time I checked they couldn't walk through stone.

[John Suburbs]

North of the Wall will suffer worst "from Winter." As to who will suffer worst from the combined affects of the recent war, the long winter and the walkers? I would have to say the Riverlands -- no food for the living but plenty of raw material for making wights.

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Harvests that are dying/dead in the fields from lack of men to harvest them (per Alys Karstark).

And the North has been and continues to be racaged by War. The battle for Winterfell (upcoming), the Ironborn invasion, Ramsay and the Hornwood skirmishes...it certainly didn’t escape unscathed. 

Riverlands isn’t exactly in great shape either though, but may be marginally better off if the climate is more temperate

The north is used to winter. The riverlands are totally ravaged, no crops and hungry survivors. They are way more screwed by winter 

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Yes, but are they growing food like we see the Riverlands folk do in ACOK? Their farms are devastated. Besides, the food to KL would come from Riverlands because the region is closer. And KL is the most populated city on Westeros. 

We have seen in the series that the Tyrell's have been supplying the starving King's Landing since Blackwater. The Reach is equally as close to KL as the Riverlands are, and it's both larger and more fertile.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

22 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

We have seen in the series that the Tyrell's have been supplying the starving King's Landing since Blackwater. The Reach is equally as close to KL as the Riverlands are, and it's both larger and more fertile.

Exactly; Highgarden fills in when the Riverlands farmlands are destroyed by war. It shows that it's not the primary supplier of food in the region. The Trident lands are the most fertile, I think. Highgarden is mostly mountainous. 

[Adam Yozza]

45 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Exactly; Highgarden fills in when the Riverlands farmlands are destroyed by war. It shows that it's not the primary supplier of food in the region. The Trident lands are the most fertile, I think. Highgarden is mostly mountainous. 

I honestly have no idea where you are getting this idea from. Beyond the fact that the Crownlands almost certainly grows its own food (I can't recall anything to suggest otherwise) and thus does not need to be fully supplied by another region, the Reach is the most fertile region. As in; it produces the most food. Given that the Reach is mostly flat grasslands and hills; with a couple of lakes and rivers in it and part of a mountain range on it's southern border; and that it is significantly larger than the Riverlands, what is giving you the impression that the Riverlands are the most fertile?

With that in mind, why would it be mainly the Riverlands that sends excess food to Kings Landing if ever they needed it and not the more fertile Reach.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

52 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

I honestly have no idea where you are getting this idea from. Beyond the fact that the Crownlands almost certainly grows its own food (I can't recall anything to suggest otherwise) and thus does not need to be fully supplied by another region, the Reach is the most fertile region. As in; it produces the most food. Given that the Reach is mostly flat grasslands and hills; with a couple of lakes and rivers in it and part of a mountain range on it's southern border; and that it is significantly larger than the Riverlands, what is giving you the impression that the Riverlands are the most fertile?

With that in mind, why would it be mainly the Riverlands that sends excess food to Kings Landing if ever they needed it and not the more fertile Reach.

I just checked AWOIAF. You are right. The Reach is called the "bread basket" of Westeros. It's been a while since I read this. 

[Adam Yozza]

32 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

I just checked AWOIAF. You are right. The Reach is called the "bread basket" of Westeros. It's been a while since I read this. 

No problem dude. I've just reread the series and found dozens of little details I'd forgotten.

[Stormking902]

On 02/04/2018 at 8:38 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

Everyone who says the north is wrong. The north has not been ravaged by fighting. The north had harvests and food stores. There will be a lack of men, but that will only let food stores last longer than they would have. 
The Riverlands however are ravaged. Many men of fighting age are dead, crops and fields are burned and there was not enough time to plant again for a fall harvest. 

Wrong Northern lords were complaining to Bran Stark while he ruled in Robbs leave that they didnt have enough men to harvest all but half of their crops asking if Bran could lend more men to help. During the harvest season you only have a small amount of time to harvest all of your crops or else they die, which is what happened to half of the crops of the North right off the rip, not to mention Robb was taking food north with him to fight in WO5K. The Manderlys are the only northern house who seem to be properly prepared for Winter and thats mostly due to importing a high percentage of there food.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 4/2/2018 at 4:28 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

All but certainly the North. The Other's invasion will probably reach the Riverlands, but they'll have to trample the North before they can get that far. The climate is also most severe in the North, so even without an army of the dead on the horizon, northerners would still struggle the most with food and resources. 

You may be correct.  The WW will have to pass through.  The north will have the worst of it.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Wrong Northern lords were complaining to Bran Stark while he ruled in Robbs leave that they didnt have enough men to harvest all but half of their crops asking if Bran could lend more men to help.

Not wrong. Do the math. Half is crop in the north is still more than none of the crop in the riverlands. And the north las fewer people. 

20 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

 During the harvest season you only have a small amount of time to harvest all of your crops or else they die, which is what happened to half of the crops of the North right off the rip, not to mention Robb was taking food north with him to fight in WO5K. The Manderlys are the only northern house who seem to be properly prepared for Winter and thats mostly due to importing a high percentage of there food.

Again, the north still will have more food and fewer people than the riverlands. At least the north has the relatively untouched white harbor and surrounding lands. the riverlands has absolutely nothing 

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

I honestly have no idea where you are getting this idea from. Beyond the fact that the Crownlands almost certainly grows its own food (I can't recall anything to suggest otherwise) and thus does not need to be fully supplied by another region, the Reach is the most fertile region. As in; it produces the most food. Given that the Reach is mostly flat grasslands and hills; with a couple of lakes and rivers in it and part of a mountain range on it's southern border; and that it is significantly larger than the Riverlands, what is giving you the impression that the Riverlands are the most fertile?

With that in mind, why would it be mainly the Riverlands that sends excess food to Kings Landing if ever they needed it and not the more fertile Reach.

It seems to me that if the crownlands were capable of growing all of its own food, then the bread riots that erupted at Myrcella's departure from King's Landing would not have happened. As Tyrion noted, the food shortage eased when Mace Tyrell resumed shipments up the Rose Road, drawing cheers from the people who were too dim to realize he was the one who caused the shortage in the first place.

[Stormking902]

59 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Not wrong. Do the math. Half is crop in the north is still more than none of the crop in the riverlands. And the north las fewer people. 

Again, the north still will have more food and fewer people than the riverlands. At least the north has the relatively untouched white harbor and surrounding lands. the riverlands has absolutely nothing 

Do you have any texual evidence that says the Riverlands entire crops were burned? I highly doubt it because that would be near impossible givin that the Riverlands is the size of a whole country. Yes most of the crops were burned for sure but id say at least 30% of the crops were spared and 30% of crops from the Riverlands far exceeds 50% crops from the North. As to the population difference yes the Riverlands has more populated by a fair amount but you need to count in the factors that they lost a huge amount of population during the WO5K and also the West burned every town they came across which would leave a lot of people without homes and fearing another attack they probably left the Riverlands for say the Reach or Vale for instance. The North has a serious Male problem and by that I mean all of the fighting aged men are dead, the older generation have picked up there swords and spears to defend there homes and have been killed so whats left to feed? Woman and children mostly.