Your Top 3 "to murder" list

[zandru]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

How can she not love him, if there's no Robb near her, to blind her?

Well, one would think... But the ASOIAF Cat is snobbish, hating the lowborn and bastards above all. Plus, "cute little Jon" is a symbol of Ned's intimate relations with another woman. And everybody in Westeros knows that bastards are, by their very nature, treacherous, evil, depraved, demented - a result of their being conceived and born in sin.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

it's unlikely that the Northern lords would have followed a 15 year old bastard to war.

In scenario which I described, there was no need for northern armies to follow Jon to war. They would have been preparing for upcoming battles, because their Lady ordered them. And while they were preparing, Lannisters in KL would have thought, that people of The North are still far away, and they are so far only on stage of preparations. So while their attention was distracted by what is going on near Winterfell, Jon would have went to KL and with help of cranogmen (that are sort of like medieval ninjas, and they also can use magic) saved Ned, and brought him to Dragonstone. From there Ned could have send a raven to his people, to march south, to attack KL, where he will join them. So Northern armies would have been under Ned's command, not Jon's.

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Instead he would have joined causes with Stannis.

That's utter speculation, we have no idea what Jon would have decided to do in the succession crisis.

Ned was going to support Stannis' claim. When Stannis came to Castle Black, Jon also helped him, because he knew that Ned wanted to support Stannis. So my scenario is a speculation, but it is based on what was in the books.

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

After Ned was imprisoned, for a long time Robb was doing nothing to free his father. That's because he liked to feel himself Lord of Winterfell, and being in charge of people, and their House.

There's zero textual evidence for this. We don't know, as we don't have Robb's POV

But we have Bran's POV about Robb behaviour, when he was left the one in charge.

Quote

Only Robb and baby Rickon were still here, and Robb was changed. He was Robb the Lord now, or trying to be. He wore a real sword and never smiled. His days were spent drilling the guard and practicing his swordplay, making the yard ring with the sound of steel as Bran watched forlornly from his window. At night he closeted himself with Maester Luwin, talking or going over account books. Sometimes he would ride out with Hallis Mollen and be gone for days at a time, visiting distant holdfasts. Whenever he was away more than a day, Rickon would cry and ask Bran if Robb was ever coming back. Even when he was home at Winterfell, Robb the Lord seemed to have more time for Hallis Mollen and Theon Greyjoy than he ever did for his brothers.

Quote

Robb was seated in Father’s high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and Hallis Mollen stood behind him. A dozen guardsmen lined the grey stone walls beneath tall narrow windows. In the center of the room the dwarf stood with his servants, and four strangers in the black of the Night’s Watch. Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors.

“Any man of the Night’s Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay,” Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.

“Any man of the Night’s Watch,” the dwarf repeated, “but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?”

Robb stood and pointed at the little man with his sword. “I am the lord here while my mother and father are away, Lannister. I am not your boy.”

“If you are a lord, you might learn a lord’s courtesy,” the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. “Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem.”

Quote

Robb Stark finally sheathed his sword. “I…I may have been hasty with you,” he said. “You’ve done Bran a kindness, and, well…” Robb composed himself with an effort. “The hospitality of Winterfell is yours if you wish it, Lannister.”

“Spare me your false courtesies, boy. You do not love me and you do not want me here. I saw an inn outside your walls, in the winter town. I’ll find a bed there, and both of us will sleep easier. For a few coppers I may even find a comely wench to warm the sheets for me.” He spoke to one of the black brothers, an old man with a twisted back and a tangled beard. “Yoren, we go south at daybreak. You will find me on the road, no doubt.” With that he made his exit, struggling across the hall on his short legs, past Rickon and out the door. His men followed.

The four of the Night’s Watch remained. Robb turned to them uncertainly. “I have had rooms prepared, and you’ll find no lack of hot water to wash off the dust of the road. I hope you will honor us at table tonight.” He spoke the words so awkwardly that even Bran took note; it was a speech he had learned, not words from the heart, but the black brothers thanked him all the same.

And there's more from Cat's POV.

There's huge difference between behaviour of those boys, when they became Lords (Robb - Lord of Winterfell, and Jon - Lord Commander of Night's Watch).

6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's just fanfic. Where you produced that alternative plot from I have no idea, certainly not from anything in the books.

Actually, my so called fanfic, is based on what we do know from the books, about motivation and character of those people. Yes, those are speculations, about what would have done those characters, if they were in a different premise, than the one in which GRRM has placed them in the original plot. And all the differences in them, would have been result of absense of those three - Robb, Sansa and Bran.

[zandru]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

So instead of doing something to save Ned, Robb was just loitering around.

I've got to question this, in view of your extensive quotes, above. "Loitering around"? "Loitering around"?!? I can't see how drilling the troops, working out in the yard, visiting the smallfolk and bannermen, spending the days with his castellan and maester discussing the accounts, operations, and strategy and all the rest are either "loitering" or, as you imply, luxuriating in being The Lord of Winterfell. Seems to me that young Robb threw himself into a man's responsibilities, working tirelessly to do what he'd seen his father do, trying his best to do right as Lord of the North. And really, Jon Snow responded similarly when he was voted Lord Commander.

At that point, nobody really understood the mortal peril that Lord Eddard was in. Nobody in their right mind would let a 13 yo play at being "King on the Iron Throne" without oversight by a responsible regent or Hand.

[kissdbyfire]

Grey Wind gets angry at Cat when Robb's angry w/ her, for instance. IMO the connection is there alright, it's just that we don't get to see it much because we're never in Robb's head.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 4/4/2018 at 9:33 AM, TMIFairy said:

Who would it be for you?

GRRM
His Publisher 
His Editor 
Then there would be peace in westeros 

[Megorova]

@zandru Maybe I used incorrect word. English is my 4th language.

Maybe not "Loitering around", maybe stalling, or ... ... There passed quite some time, between time when Ned was attacked by Jaime near that brothel, Ned's imprisonment, and Ned's execution. And what in that time interval was doing Robb, to get Ned out of his predicament?

Ned was seized by Lannisters and Littlefinger in chapter 49, Eddard XIV, and executed in chapter 65, Arya 5. What was Robb doing to free his father, in span of those 16 chapters?

There was one Bran's chapter, and three Catelyn's, from which we know what Robb was busy with, while his father was rotting in a dungeon.

Quote

“How long before…before they go?”

“He must march soon, or not at all,” Maester Luwin said. “The winter town is full to bursting, and this army of his will eat the countryside clean if it camps here much longer. Others are waiting to join him all along the kingsroad, barrow knights and crannogmen and the Lords Manderly and Flint. The fighting has begun in the riverlands, and your brother has many leagues to go.”

Quote

“Bran, your lord brother will not have time to see you now. He must greet Lord Karstark and his sons and make them welcome.”

Quote

Maester Luwin counseled Robb to remain at Winterfell, and Bran pleaded with him too, for his own sake as much as Rickon’s, but his brother only shook his head stubbornly and said, “I don’t want to go. I have to.”

It was only half a lie. Someone had to go, to hold the Neck and help the Tullys against the Lannisters, Bran could understand that, but it did not have to be Robb. His brother might have given the command to Hal Mollen or Theon Greyjoy, or to one of his lords bannermen. Maester Luwin urged him to do just that, but Robb would not hear of it. “My lord father would never have sent men off to die while he huddled like a craven behind the walls of Winterfell,” he said, all Robb the Lord.

But that's exactly what he was doing all that time - he was staying in Winterfell, where it was safe, instead of going into uncertainty. There was long road ahead of him, but he was wasting precious time, on feasting with lords, and talking with them, and talking, and talking, to impress them, and show them that he's the boss.

He was scared to go, he was scared to act. He was scared even of people, that were supposed to go with him into that war.

Quote

Yet that very night, his brother came to Bran’s bedchamber pale and shaken, after the fires had burned low in the Great HalL. “I thought he was going to kill me,” Robb confessed. “Did you see the way he threw down Hal, like he was no bigger than Rickon? Gods, I was so scared. And the Greatjon’s not the worst of them, only the loudest. Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies.”

Seems that maybe he was waiting, until it will become too late to go.

Quote

“Mother, what are we going to do? I brought this whole army together, eighteen thousand men, but I don’t…I’m not certain…” He looked to her, his eyes shining, the proud young lord melted away in an instant, and quick as that he was a child again, a fifteen-year-old boy looking to his mother for answers.

It would not do.

“What are you so afraid of, Robb?” she asked gently.

“I…” He turned his head away, to hide the first tear. “If we march…even if we win…the Lannisters hold Sansa, and Father. They’ll kill them, won’t they?”

Even when he and his army, were already on the march south, he still was not sure what to do, he was still hesitating.

So probably correct word for what Robb did, would be - waiting out. He was waiting out, until the situation somehow will be resolved on its own, or until Ned will be executed, and then Robb would have became real Lord of Winterfell, instead of just being Ned's temporary replacement. Seems that Robb the Pup, didn't wanted to risk and fight against Lannisters. Because what would he have gained from it? Based on his inactivity, in actually doing at least any steps, towards getting Ned out of his imprisonment, it doesn't seems that Robb really wanted to save Ned. And after Ned's death, Robb would have became Lord of Winterfell. And then he also has crowned himself as King in The North. And most likely, after his clash with Lannisters-Baratheons, he was planning to get Iron Throne for himself. That I'm basing on Robb not joining forces with Stannis, even though his father was supporting Stannis' claim.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Maybe not "Loitering around", maybe stalling, or

Well, our interpretations vary, and nothing can change that. My read was that (1) Nobody at that time understood that Ned was actually in mortal danger, and (2) Robb, as acting Lord of Winterfell, had his father's own responsibilities right where he was. Maybe even (3) Going to war is a big deal. You don't just rush off.

Moreover, to suggest that Robb didn't care about his father's life - that's very wrong. I also don't think he wanted a crown, any crown, and definitely not the Iron Throne.

But people's opinions will differ.

[Megorova]

31 minutes ago, zandru said:

Moreover, to suggest that Robb didn't care about his father's life - that's very wrong.

I didn't suggested, that he didn't cared about his father at all, only that, based on what he said, it seems to me, that he already sort of resigned Ned's life. This -

“If we march…even if we win…the Lannisters hold Sansa, and Father. They’ll kill them, won’t they?”

So I see this like - whether we march, or won't, Sansa and Father will die anyway.

Or did I misinterpreted that? Dind't it sounded like, that, and Robb's behaviour in general, that he doesn't expect to save Ned's life, by the end of this conflict, and thus for him the point of this war, is not a rescue mission, to save Ned, but rather something else? Revenge? Iron Throne?

37 minutes ago, zandru said:

Going to war is a big deal. You don't just rush off.

Though, is going to war against Lannisters, was an only option? Isn't this option looks not effective enough, if its point is to save Ned? Because while they will be preparing for the war, and then fighting in battles all over Westeros, Lannisters will be able to execute Ned hundreds times, prior Robb's troops will even arrive to King's Landing.

For example, when Jon found out about Arya, he has sent Mance and with him a few capable people, to steal Arya from Boltons.

When Mad King Aerys was imprisoned by people of Duskendale, and Tywin was going to lead his troops into battle against them, Barristan Selmy sneaked into the dungeon, and saved Aerys.

When in The Mystery Knight, Egg was kidnapped, when Dunk found out where they keep him, he went there and fought with kidnappers, not went away from Whitewalls, to inform Egg's family about what happened, and for them to prepare troops to march into battle against those conspirants, to save Egg from them.

Thus, if you really want to save someone, then the full-scale war, is not the best solution. And not the fastest. And probably not really effective.

50 minutes ago, zandru said:

Robb, as acting Lord of Winterfell, had his father's own responsibilities right where he was.

Those responsibilities would have waited, while Ned's execution wouldn't.

If he was so busy with dealing with minor everyday things of Winterfell, then he shouldn't have went into war at all. Though eventually he did dropped all those affairs, to go into war. Thus they were not as important. They were just a delay factors, that kept Robb from making decisions, and finally making some real steps, towards saving Ned, or rather declaring his hostile intentions to Lannisters.

52 minutes ago, zandru said:

Nobody at that time understood that Ned was actually in mortal danger

All of his people were killed. Their heads were on KL's walls, for onlookers to gawk. Arya went missing. So for what Robb was waiting - for official invitation from Lannisters? - Dear Robb Stark. We're going to execute your father. By beheading. On next Sunday. Come and see.

56 minutes ago, zandru said:

But people's opinions will differ.

Though I thought that Robb, that had all resources of The North, haven't done enough, haven't done all he could have. In my opinion, he didn't tried hard enough, for whatever reason. Maybe he just underestimated level of danger for Ned's life. Maybe he thought, that he had plenty of time, prior Lannisters will make a decision, what to do with Ned. Maybe the reason of Robb's failure was his inexperience. Whatever the reason was, I think that if their roles were switched, and the one who had a mission, to save Ned from Lannisters, was Jon, then I think he would have managed to accomplish that goal. After comparing actions and behaviour of Robb and Jon, I came to conclusion, that out of the two of them, Jon is a more capable leader. Though that's just my personal opinion.

[norwaywolf123]

1. Varys: Is a force of destabilisation.

2. Cersei Lannister: Has essentially commited and kept an act(incest, cuckolded her husband) that if discovered will lead to war in Westeros.

3. Petyr Baelish: Is also a force of destabilisation. His management of the realms finances is meant to plunder Westeros.

[Nowy Tends]

22 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 Whatever the reason was, I think that if their roles were switched, and the one who had a mission, to save Ned from Lannisters, was Jon, then I think he would have managed to accomplish that goal.

By going "incognito" to the Red Keep, followed by a bunch of crannogmen on whom the street urchins of KL throw rotten fruits and garbage…

[Megorova]

34 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

By going "incognito" to the Red Keep, followed by a bunch of crannogmen on whom the street urchins of KL throw rotten fruits and garbage…

Barristan Selmy managed to get back in King's Landing, was present during Ned's execution, and then sailed away to Essos. And no one recognized him. Even though he served in Red Keep and King's Landing for over 40(?) years, and thus probably all guards in city's watch and castle's guards knew his face. Varys is constantly pretending to be someone else, and so far nobody haven't caught him, even though he's a known personality for citizens of KL.

Nobody (in KL) haven't seen Howland Reed for nearly 15 years. And cranogmen in general are unremarkable, they don't draw attention, they are not as flashy as Dothraki or Valyrians. And Jon's looks are not something exotic, that will draw anyone's attention.

Howland Reed - , Jon - , cranogmen -   

Thus their secret rescue mission would have been successful.

[Adam Yozza]

@Megorova So you think Robb waiting for his army to gather is him stalling? That he did nothing in between Ned's arrest and imprisonment? What would you have him do? Rush of with half an army and get slaughtered? He left almost immediately after the last of the bannermen arrived at Winterfell (or at least those that were marshalling at Winterfell) and then moved as fast as possible to engage the Lannisters to free the Riverlands. Everything Robb does up until he's declared King in the North is done to rescue both his father and his Tully relatives.

 

[Darth Sidious]

Tywin Lannister

Ned Stark

Robb Stark

 

[Megorova]

52 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

So you think Robb waiting for his army to gather is him stalling? That he did nothing in between Ned's arrest and imprisonment?

What exactly have he done, to save his father? Aside from starting a war, in which thousands people died, but it still didn't helped Ned to avoid execution.

55 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

What would you have him do?

Nothing. Robb, as a character, served his purpose, and that wasn't saving Ned, or becoming a great commander. His role was to make books longer, that's all. And evidence of this, is that he haven't accomplished anything. It's as if he never was. What good have he done for people? What good done by him is left after his death? Jon at least saved thousands wildlings from death.

59 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

Rush of with half an army and get slaughtered? He left almost immediately after the last of the bannermen arrived at Winterfell

And got slaughtered anyway. And it was also his own fault, result of his short-sightedness. After how he disrespected Freys, to go into their castle, and trust his life to them, was an utter stupidity. Even after Theon's betrayal, he learned nothing. He never learned from his mistakes, and thus he was destined to be slaughtered.

1 hour ago, Adam Yozza said:

Everything Robb does up until he's declared King in the North is done to rescue both his father and his Tully relatives.

And did he? Rescued them? Any of them? No. Father got killed. Mother got killed. Uncle was taken captive. Etc.

[Reekazoid]

1. Mance Rayder

2. Septa Lemore

3. The Dusky Woman

 

 So we never have to suffer another theory as to who they REALLY are in disguise.

 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Megorova said:

His role was to make books longer, that's all. An

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Barristan Selmy managed to get back in King's Landing, was present during Ned's execution, and then sailed away to Essos. And no one recognized him. Even though he served in Red Keep and King's Landing for over 40(?) years, and thus probably all guards in city's watch and castle's guards knew his face. Varys is constantly pretending to be someone else, and so far nobody haven't caught him, even though he's a known personality for citizens of KL.

Nobody (in KL) haven't seen Howland Reed for nearly 15 years. And cranogmen in general are unremarkable, they don't draw attention, they are not as flashy as Dothraki or Valyrians. And Jon's looks are not something exotic, that will draw anyone's attention.

Howland Reed - , Jon - , cranogmen -   

Thus their secret rescue mission would have been successful.

Finish this story then after they escapè Kings Landing. The W-team infiltrates the guarded city and steals Ned from a guarded prison and then what??? Where does Ned go after this? Back to the Greywater to be with the cleverly named Jyanna who haunts Ned of his sister for the rest of his life? I’m sure that nobody in KL would go looking for Ned almost immediately (don’t tell Arya), and Ned can’t go back home so sad and pointless, and any outcome would start a war. 

[Nowy Tends]

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Howland Reed - , Jon - , cranogmen -   

Thus their secret rescue mission would have been successful.

I'm sorry but this "14 years old Jon Bond-Snow and his Green Berets crannogmen leaded by Howland Reed, the guy who got his ass kicked by three spotty squires" scenario is laughable…

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

In scenario which I described, there was no need for northern armies to follow Jon to war. They would have been preparing for upcoming battles, because their Lady ordered them. And while they were preparing, Lannisters in KL would have thought, that people of The North are still far away, and they are so far only on stage of preparations. So while their attention was distracted by what is going on near Winterfell, Jon would have went to KL and with help of cranogmen (that are sort of like medieval ninjas, and they also can use magic) saved Ned, and brought him to Dragonstone. From there Ned could have send a raven to his people, to march south, to attack KL, where he will join them. So Northern armies would have been under Ned's command, not Jon's.

This is why I'm suggesting your argument is fanfic. You're simply making up an alternative story, which includes medieval swamp ninjas. Which is fine, but to say all this would have happened with utter certainty is bizarre.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

So my scenario is a speculation

Speculation/invented

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

But we have Bran's POV about Robb behaviour, when he was left the one in charge.

Quote

Only Robb and baby Rickon were still here, and Robb was changed. He was Robb the Lord now, or trying to be. He wore a real sword and never smiled. His days were spent drilling the guard and practicing his swordplay, making the yard ring with the sound of steel as Bran watched forlornly from his window. At night he closeted himself with Maester Luwin, talking or going over account books. Sometimes he would ride out with Hallis Mollen and be gone for days at a time, visiting distant holdfasts. Whenever he was away more than a day, Rickon would cry and ask Bran if Robb was ever coming back. Even when he was home at Winterfell, Robb the Lord seemed to have more time for Hallis Mollen and Theon Greyjoy than he ever did for his brothers.

Quote

Robb was seated in Father’s high seat, wearing ringmail and boiled leather and the stern face of Robb the Lord. Theon Greyjoy and Hallis Mollen stood behind him. A dozen guardsmen lined the grey stone walls beneath tall narrow windows. In the center of the room the dwarf stood with his servants, and four strangers in the black of the Night’s Watch. Bran could sense the anger in the hall the moment that Hodor carried him through the doors.

“Any man of the Night’s Watch is welcome here at Winterfell for as long as he wishes to stay,” Robb was saying with the voice of Robb the Lord. His sword was across his knees, the steel bare for all the world to see. Even Bran knew what it meant to greet a guest with an unsheathed sword.

“Any man of the Night’s Watch,” the dwarf repeated, “but not me, do I take your meaning, boy?”

Robb stood and pointed at the little man with his sword. “I am the lord here while my mother and father are away, Lannister. I am not your boy.”

“If you are a lord, you might learn a lord’s courtesy,” the little man replied, ignoring the sword point in his face. “Your bastard brother has all your father’s graces, it would seem.”

Quote

Robb Stark finally sheathed his sword. “I…I may have been hasty with you,” he said. “You’ve done Bran a kindness, and, well…” Robb composed himself with an effort. “The hospitality of Winterfell is yours if you wish it, Lannister.”

“Spare me your false courtesies, boy. You do not love me and you do not want me here. I saw an inn outside your walls, in the winter town. I’ll find a bed there, and both of us will sleep easier. For a few coppers I may even find a comely wench to warm the sheets for me.” He spoke to one of the black brothers, an old man with a twisted back and a tangled beard. “Yoren, we go south at daybreak. You will find me on the road, no doubt.” With that he made his exit, struggling across the hall on his short legs, past Rickon and out the door. His men followed.

The four of the Night’s Watch remained. Robb turned to them uncertainly. “I have had rooms prepared, and you’ll find no lack of hot water to wash off the dust of the road. I hope you will honor us at table tonight.” He spoke the words so awkwardly that even Bran took note; it was a speech he had learned, not words from the heart, but the black brothers thanked him all the same.

And there's more from Cat's POV.

There's huge difference between behaviour of those boys, when they became Lords (Robb - Lord of Winterfell, and Jon - Lord Commander of Night's Watch).

Bran and Cat both recognized changes in Robb when he became a lord/king. Some good and some bad. To jump from those quotes to "Robb wasn't really trying to save his father", you need evidence, such as anyone at any point suggesting that might be what he was doing. There isn't any such evidence.

16 hours ago, Megorova said:

Actually, my so called fanfic, is based on what we do know from the books, about motivation and character of those people. Yes, those are speculations, about what would have done those characters, if they were in a different premise, than the one in which GRRM has placed them in the original plot

That's pretty much the definition of fanfic mate. You can speculate about what would happen if this or that was different in the books, but to launch into an alternative scenario with utter certainty, which includes such lines as: "Jon would have went to KL and with help of cranogmen (that are sort of like medieval ninjas, and they also can use magic) saved Ned, and brought him to Dragonstone." is just writing your own story. 

[Kandrax]

17 hours ago, zandru said:

And everybody in Westeros knows that bastards are, by their very nature, treacherous, evil, depraved, demented -

I think that actions of Hugh and Ulf cemented this opinion in heads of people.