Lady Winter Rose

Why people hate Dany, but love Arya?

208 posts in this topic

Just now, Bloodraven's Spider said:

I enjoy both of their chapters very much but Dany is a dumb wench while Arya is just a lost little girl.

Jesus. 

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13 hours ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

Just because one is feminine smart ruler, and another is adventurous tomboy assassin, doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading both of them. But to be honest, Dany is more realistic than Arya. There are RL princesses, no matter how much some readers hated idea of princesses in the novel, while Arya is stereotypical rogue of any fantasy novel/game.

Hm. Let's see. Before Dany's plot line deteriorated in "Dance", she, at the tender age of 14-15, outconned the Good Masters of Astapor, outplayed two  seasoned mercenary companies, and... oh, yes. Miraculously hatched the first dragons the world had seen for more than a century. Among other feats.

Don't get me wrong, I like pre-ADWD Dany, but not for being realistic.

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1 hour ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Anyway, I'm in the camp that hates Daenerys

That's what I'll never understand: people taking sides to the point they feel they belong to a "camp" that gives them a (skewed) reading grid…

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40 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

That's what I'll never understand: people taking sides to the point they feel they belong to a "camp" that gives them a (skewed) reading grid…

I agree with that one. It's just our little nerd version of people having their favourite football team to the point of losing all reason though, so largely no harm done.

One issue with it though is I've noticed this tendency can lead people to thoroughly condemning characters and their actions, to the point that they fail to recognise any nuance, contradiction or complexity. That's a real shame as it's the lack of moral absolutism and the complexity of the characters that I think make's the series so special. 

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3 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

That one time she crucified 163 people for crimes they didn't commit springs to mind.

Anyway, I'm in the camp that hates Daenerys and doesn't particularly like Arya, so I can't really answer the OP.

Is this proof that she is mad? It is her only act of cruelty, and worse things  happened in the books.

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2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Is this really what the board has devolved into?

I take it you disagree.

There's almost no chance that those 163 people were the ones who conspired to crucify the children. That was the basis for their crucifixion. Others who may well have been the guilty party in the crucifixion of the children were not punished for their part.

She crucified 163 people because she decided they were guilty by association. That's hardly debatable.

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Weren't they crucified for being slavers, and in revenge for the crucifixion of children? Not making a moral judgement either way, but saying it's for crimes they did not commit is a bit of a stretch.

Unless I'm quite mistaken, they were crucified solely as "justice" for the crucifixion of those 163 children, hence the number she chose.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they were good people or anything, and they were certainly guilty of owning slaves and taking part in the slave trade. But that's simply not what they were punished for.

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

That's what I'll never understand: people taking sides to the point they feel they belong to a "camp" that gives them a (skewed) reading grid…

Oh, fuck me, it's a saying. I don't feel any kinship with those who share my opinion, I don't feel that I'm really in a little camp, it's just a saying. Not an uncommon one, either. I could as easily have said "I'm of the position that I hate Daenerys and dislike Arya..." or "I hate Daenerys and dislike Arya..." and it would've meant the same thing.

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1 minute ago, Kandrax said:

Is this proof that she is mad? It is her only act of cruelty, and worse things  happened in the books.

Well, sure, but you can look at some of Aerys's individual acts of cruelty and say "that doesn't prove that he's mad". It's how they all come together, and Daenerys seems to be heading down that path.

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3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Tbf I can barely glance at this forum these days without seeing someone slating Robb, including for this reason.

Well, he would be considered a war criminal in our world. Lesser than Tywin, though.

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8 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Well, sure, but you can look at some of Aerys's individual acts of cruelty and say "that doesn't prove that he's mad". It's how they all come together, and Daenerys seems to be heading down that path.

Even before Duskendale Aerys had some mental illness. Daenerys would go the same path, only if Dothraki gang-rape her.

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27 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

Unless I'm quite mistaken, they were crucified solely as "justice" for the crucifixion of those 163 children, hence the number she chose.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they were good people or anything, and they were certainly guilty of owning slaves and taking part in the slave trade. But that's simply not what they were punished for.

Well...it was a symbolic act wasn't it? Visiting the same sort of punishment on the slavers they meted out to their slaves. Frankly I'll shed no tears, but you do you.

25 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Well, he would be considered a war criminal in our world.

Granted, but it's not our world so he isn't. We actually don't know what he did in the Westerlands in any detail, though I agree it's unlikely to have been pretty. My point was though that I see a lot of criticism of Robb, and often for exactly that reason. It's further evidence that saying "all fans love X but hate Y" is getting things a bit wrong. On this forum, I've seen almost every character debated from every conceivable angle, usually multiple times. For instance, I think I've debated Robb with you on several threads (I enjoy it btw ;-) ), as I have with many others. 

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Dany is my favorite character.   I love her.

I don't like Arya.  

It seems the Op is making assumptions.

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I love Arya and despise Dany.

But that is what makes these books so great, that we feel strongly about the characters. Like in real life, we don't like everyone, in fact we hate certain people.

It is to Martins credit that he has written characters that evoke feelings from us as we root and jeer them on.

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5 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Something to do with Dany being feminine AND occupying traditional male roles. It's easier for people to accept a masculine female character doing that than a feminine one, which is why we get so many action flicks with emotionless (and dull) female leads.

 

^^^^^What he said.

 

People would loved Dany more is she's Warrior Princess than Princess Ruler. Just like Arya was princess while Robb was alive, but do people mention it at all? Noooo. She's just a masculine girl wielding a shortsword and killing people, not sad poor girl from rich and old family struggling to survived. (BTW, Dany is girl form once rich and old family struggling to survive, just having more luck than Arya.)

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18 hours ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

Just because one is feminine smart ruler, and another is adventurous tomboy assassin, doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading both of them. But to be honest, Dany is more realistic than Arya. There are RL princesses, no matter how much some readers hated idea of princesses in the novel, while Arya is stereotypical rogue of any fantasy novel/game.

Fans have varying degrees of dislike for characters in the story. Fans also have different ideas as to how the characters react to a situation. I didn’t read and re-read the sage to pass a moral judgment on the character or compare flaws as who is bestest or the worstest. I want to know what is going to happen to them.

The characters that get the most heat in no particular order are Jon Snow, Cat, Sansa, Arya, Dany and Jaime. It is all subjective and relative to a person’s likes and dislikes when a person reads a book.

I am a Starkie. Throughout the story each one of them as annoyed me. I particularly found some of Arya’s childish behavior boring. She is a child, so I have to read her as a child. What drew me to her is the many road blocks martin put in her path.

Dany, I’m not that interested in for a number of reasons. I still have to look at her part of the story so that I can try to understand what ASOIAF is about.

For reasons of my own I saw Cat as a meddling micro manager. Yet, I still want LSH to get revenge for the RW.

Most all of the characters have their pros and cons. I’m not particularly interested in Sansa. I feel for the trauma she has endured. I hope she outsmarts LF. Yet, her pre-teenage self-centeredness plucked my nerve. Yet, she is a teenager so I have to read her that way.

I want the Stark’s to overcome their trials and return to the North to live reasonably happy lives. I doubt that will happen. To me, they are the underdogs.

Character like and dislike is subjective. Yes, my personal values and life experience influence my reading of the tale when it comes to dissecting scenarios. It is normal for a twenty something and a fifty something year old to interpret the characters and the story differently. My opinions change as more information is revealed.

Being closer to the fifty something age group, many of my opinions are boring and lack drama enough to stir up a feeding frenzy. Today, if I had to choose a favorite character it would be the Hound. I know what he does for a living. Yet, I like him. If I had to live in Westeros I would want him on my side. That’s what I have to do in these books – pick a side --- Stark, Lannister, Targ.

There are many interesting characters in martin’s saga. Mance, is another favorite of mine, and where is Benjen. I am also in the camp that thinks LC Snow is wounded which is another topic that stirs up controversy.

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20 minutes ago, ResidentHi11 said:

It is to Martins credit that he has written characters that evoke feelings from us as we root and jeer them on.

Agreed.

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I think there will always be people who hate Dany, mainly because she is now in the position of being a female leader. Her actions will always be more scrutinized, reviled, disliked, and whatnot compared to the other male lords or kings in the book. 

I remember several years back people here were debating Dany freeing the slaves, as if she did something wrong. She is called a poor leader mainly for her actions in DwD, but the same doesn't apply to Jon, who also makes similar decisions ending is disaster, or near disaster. (Actually, in DwD, Dany does certain things like marrying Hizdar and opening the fighting pits to appease and reconcile, even though she's clearly against these things morally. The book actually ends with her realizing she doesn't need to appease anyone). 

Dany could end up saving the world at the end, but the haters would still hate. It's just what she has to put up with considering her gender and position, kind of like Elizabeth I. 

The thing with Arya is, well, she's just cool. She's a little girl still of course. And she sort of exists in her own reality away from all the politics of her world (and ours too). I'm not sure if she's necessarily stereotypical, though her character does follow some common tropes. But they aren't bad tropes. If it weren't for Arya, I probably wouldn't even have gotten into the books. And I think if Arya were to become a queen or a lady of a house, she'd get similar levels of hate like Dany. 

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I think a big part of my dislike for Dany is her Essos storyline. I just don't like nor care about that part of the world and when she is stuck in Mereen, I felt it tedious and annoying, like, here is all this crazy stuff happening in the main location! wow! and now back to Hizdar zo Lomak qo Struessel zon mafak and a bunch of other names that sound similar and Dany!

 

I am not against a strong female leadership, in fact I am for it. I can easily see things going that way soon In the books. Cercei in KL, Sansa becoming LoW (maybe), Dany becoming Queen, Arya the Assasin, Val the Wildling Princess, Gilly, foster mother of the son of the KBtW, Asha, Queen of the Iron Born etc. There are some great women characters.

 

I am just not a fan of Dany and her arrogance. She says she wants justice, but what she means is revenge. She isn't sympathetic to the people, simply she loves that they lover her.

 

But you never know, her character may change and I will end up loving her. I know it wouldn't be the first time I started by hating a character then liking them later (Jaime).

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19 hours ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

Just because one is feminine smart ruler, and another is adventurous tomboy assassin, doesn't mean I don't enjoy reading both of them. But to be honest, Dany is more realistic than Arya. There are RL princesses, no matter how much some readers hated idea of princesses in the novel, while Arya is stereotypical rogue of any fantasy novel/game.

As easy to ask why people love Dany but hate Arya. There may be real-life princess but they haven't been living in exile on charity, sold to barbarian chieftains, or hatched dragon eggs magically. So, realistic? Hardly.

IMO a lot of Dany love is based on the outdated notion of the Divine Right of KIngs to rule, that there are actually people destined by birth to be an upper class.

And Arya hate is based on gurlz not being allowed to be badass, taking care of business personally rather than through proxies. (She keeps an enemies list? Maybe haters are envious of her high degree of organization.)

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1 hour ago, Lady Winter Rose said:

^^^^^What he said.

 

People would loved Dany more is she's Warrior Princess than Princess RulerI. Just like Arya was princess while Robb was alive, but do people mention it at all? Noooo. She's just a masculine girl wielding a shortsword and killing people, not sad poor girl from rich and old family struggling to survived. (BTW, Dany is girl form once rich and old family struggling to survive, just having more luck than Arya.)

Actually I'd like Dany better if she made better decisions in her Princess Ruler role. However, in most of her early chapters she's a monumental screw-up except a Warrior Princess. She has good intentions but implements them badly. Her attempts at social reform in Essos are near-total failures. And she's wasting so much time on non-essential activity that she's delaying her return to Westeros, the main locus of the story.

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6 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Something to do with Dany being feminine AND occupying traditional male roles. It's easier for people to accept a masculine female character doing that than a feminine one, which is why we get so many action flicks with emotionless (and dull) female leads.

And yet, you could say much of the same about Arya. Labelling Dany as feminine and Arya as masculine is ludicrously reductive. Arya has many traditionally feminine and traditionally masculine traits - pointless though these classifications may be when Westerosi society allows such a narrow range of activities for women.You would probably be right if you argued that such a simplification also occurs amongst many of those who claim to be fans of Arya, who erroneously view her as masculine and like her because of it.

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