Arya the Good

[HoodedCrow]

I agree with you Chris.

Arya is certainly getting a crash course on how to dissemble. But actually, she began as very sympathetic to the poor, the victims, the low status people and the hungry. She is 12? Going on 40.

Sansa, who was quite a shallow snob at 11? Is now getting her low born vs high born, beauty vs deeds education.

[John Suburbs]

Good, evil, crazy, sane -- she is grey, just like everybody else in the story. No matter how you define her, I don't see things ending well for her if she stays on the path she's on now.

[zandru]

5 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

in contrast, Sansa lies a lot, lies to herself, relies on others and forgets her identity in order to survive.

Good observation! When the Hound tells her "They're all liars here, and better liars than you" (approximately), Sansa decides he's telling her to lie a lot. Somehow, she "forgets" how the Hound hates lying and liars. Sansa has a very selective memory, and increasingly modifies her recollections to her own credit. Arya is learning to be brutally self-aware and under her own control.

5 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Arya able to learn from other people very deliberately, courageously and persistently, if she thinks the skills are worthy. She even sews to help Sandor heal from wounds. She is learning discipline along the way, and she is not a woman yet.

"Well stated, but I think the sewing part came from the teevie series. In the books, she just wine-cauterizes his wounds and bandages him up. This, in spite of telling herself repeatedly that this is her chance to be rid of him, she still does the kind, humane thing. It's only when he makes her angry to try to get her to kill him that she decides to let him suffer and rides away. Well, that's Arya's conscious rationale. By this chapter, she's thinking of him as "Sandor", instead of "the Hound." One can't help but hope this odd couple will meet again.

[The Mother of The Others]

When watching d'Jango Unchained do you comment on it like, "well, this is unfortunate for everyone involved. Jango's psyche must be all messed up."    Or do you get onboard with some vigilante justice in a situation that calls for it?   That's what the story is asking of you with Arya.  To be a fan of that kind of thing, just as a mental exercise if it's not usually your wheelhouse.  Things have deteriorated in Arya's world to the point of vigilante- ism being what's left.  It's the correct play.  That's what the story is selling.  So if you can't be a fan of it during those chapters, don't hate the hater (Arya)-- hate the author.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 4/7/2018 at 11:06 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Arya rescues, helps, feeds and loves other people. Her life includes many acts of kindness and she also values help and kindness from other people. Let’s balance the darkness with some light and show that she is no saint, but not As black as she is sometimes painted. We can discuss her humanity, good or nuanced qualities and make lists. I think her arc will be about uniting yin and yang and tell a story about resolving aggression, lies, vengeance, and love. Mercy is something we can give to this character or not. Have at!

I do not think Arya's arc is about balancing the yin and the yang.  Arya's arc is about how personal tragedy can lead one to a life of violence and depravity.  The choices that people make and how they respond to adversity.  Arya is both victim and perpetrator.  We can feel sorry for Arya the victim, we cannot feel compassion for Arya the murderer.  Her actions are unacceptable and her past life does not make them alright.  Arya will have to answer for her crimes sooner or later.   She has become corrupt and whatever goodness is left inside is fading away.  Killing the master of coin's bodyguard and labeling it justice is just perverting the truth.  The war of the five kings is over.  There is no longer any reason for Arya to kill other than wanting to.  

[teej6]

3 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I do not think Arya's arc is about balancing the yin and the yang.  Arya's arc is about how personal tragedy can lead one to a life of violence and depravity.  The choices that people make and how they respond to adversity.  Arya is both victim and perpetrator.  We can feel sorry for Arya the victim, we cannot feel compassion for Arya the murderer.  Her actions are unacceptable and her past life does not make them alright.  Arya will have to answer for her crimes sooner or later.   She has become corrupt and whatever goodness is left inside is fading away.  Killing the master of coin's bodyguard and labeling it justice is just perverting the truth.  The war of the five kings is over.  There is no longer any reason for Arya to kill other than wanting to.  

Arya was not killing Harys Swyft’s (who btw is referred to as Lord Treasurer in the books) bodyguard, she was killing a known child murderer. Big difference. And what does the WotFK have anything to do with Arya’s kill? Arya is not fighting the WotFK. She doesn’t care two hoots about it. Arya is not “perverting the truth” as you say, she knows exactly what she is doing, she sees a child murderer whose atrocities she has witnessed first hand and she is exacting justice because she can. You may not like it but in no way is she denying the truth to herself. 

And how has Arya become corrupt? She still has a code she lives by. You can dislike her code/morals and her meting out her form of justice, but by no means is she corrupt. The only murder, I feel, that she commits that may be questionable in GRRM’s world of grey morality is killing Dareon. In this case also, she does not kill him without thought or for pleasure. She follows Dareon, figures out that he’s a deserter from the NW. Right or wrong, she believes in her mind that she is meting out justice to a deserter like her father would do. 

And if you are waiting for Arya to answer for her crimes (although I don’t see most of them as crimes rather as a child’s instinct to survive and adapt in a brutal world the only was she knows how), I highly doubt that is going to happen. Arya is going to find her way back home and to a semblance of normalcy. How and when that will happen we can speculate. As I see Arya’s bond with Jon closer than anything she’s experienced (she wouldn’t betray Jon not even to her father), I suspect Jon or something to do with Jon will have a big part to play in her return to Westeros and her pack. 

[Nowy Tends]

Raff is now "the Master of Coin's body guard"… People have a short memory these days…

[Shi Qiang]

On 4/7/2018 at 11:06 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Arya rescues, helps, feeds and loves other people. Her life includes many acts of kindness and she also values help and kindness from other people. Let’s balance the darkness with some light and show that she is no saint, but not As black as she is sometimes painted. We can discuss her humanity, good or nuanced qualities and make lists. I think her arc will be about uniting yin and yang and tell a story about resolving aggression, lies, vengeance, and love. Mercy is something we can give to this character or not. Have at!

Surely you're joking.  Have you forgotten what she did to the old man in Braavos?  The one selling insurance policies.  Arya murdered him.  The man was no threat to her and had done her no harm.  She's black.  How black is a reasonable question.  Not even close to the level of Ramsay but she is more black than gray.  She's no hero.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

The one selling insurance policies.  Arya murdered him.  The man was no threat to her and had done her no harm.

Obviously you've never had to deal with an insurance company 

[Nowy Tends]

22 minutes ago, Allardyce said:

Have you forgotten what she did to the old man in Braavos?  The one selling insurance policies.  Arya murdered him.  The man was no threat to her and had done her no harm.  

She's no hero.

The man was a crook, and even though Arya had refused to kill him, he was doomed, since there was a FM contract on his head.

Arya is a hero of survival in hostile environment.

[HoodedCrow]

There is very little justice going on with the rise of Cersei, Ramsey and Euron. Even the High Sparrow seems stuck on gender and sex issues, while offering violence, torture and shaming.

I think Arya may stick to her version of justice enforcement, while learning discretion and mercy of a different sort. In this chaotic society, choices must be made.

Blush, yes I’m starting to confuse the show and the books. Time for a reread! No sewing, but cauterizing with wine. In any case, she heals when she has the chance and can’t bring herself to kill Sandor, for whatever reason, and takes him off her list.

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Have you forgotten what she did to the old man in Braavos? 

There is a theory that he was an abuser.

[Kandrax]

33 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

High Sparrow seems stuck on gender and sex issues

In his defence, HS isn't more misogonistic than many other characters.

It should be noted that he is one few characters that treated Brienne kindly, and never said anything about her wearing armour.

[fire&blood]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

In his defence, HS isn't more misogonistic than many other characters.

It should be noted that he is one few characters that treated Brienne kindly, and never said anything about her wearing armour.

I think you're thinking of Septon Meribald. Or I'm misremembering.

[Nowy Tends]

1 hour ago, fire&blood said:

I think you're thinking of Septon Meribald.

Yes it's Meribald, not the HS.

[The Commentator]

On 4/8/2018 at 6:54 AM, Damon_Tor said:

Well I think it will redeem her some if it turns out she's being trained by the FM because they know they'll need to kill Bran. Whatever it is Arya is becoming, Bran is becoming something far, far worse.

Bran is far worse!  I grant you, skin changing Hodor is abusive and unethical.  Arya murdered a man who had done her no wrong.  What Arya did is worse than a lapse in ethics.  

 

[White Ravens]

5 hours ago, Allardyce said:

 The one selling insurance policies.  Arya murdered him.  The man was no threat to her and had done her no harm.

Arya didn't kill some random insurance salesman.  She is a student studying assassination at assassination school and he was one of her first assignments.  Do you want her to get an "F"?  As to why the insurance salesman had a price on his head, that is between the Guild and the person(s) who hired them to do the job.

[fire&blood]

1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

Yes it's Meribald, not the HS.

Ah thank you!

[teej6]

6 hours ago, Allardyce said:

Surely you're joking.  Have you forgotten what she did to the old man in Braavos?  The one selling insurance policies.  Arya murdered him.  The man was no threat to her and had done her no harm.  She's black.  How black is a reasonable question.  Not even close to the level of Ramsay but she is more black than gray.  She's no hero.

If you recall it is implied that this “old man” is an insurance agent who’s cheated his customers, and one such merchant/merchant’s family put a hit on him. He sells insurance to merchant ship captains and has to pay out if the ship sinks or is attacked/looted by pirates. It is strongly implied that he doesn’t always keep to his end of the bargain. So the old man is no innocent.

Besides, it was not Arya’s choice to kill him but instead she was ordered to do so by the FM. And as she has committed herself to the FM, and is obligated to obey them, she doesn’t have must of a choice now does she? Inspite of that, the entire chapter shows exactly how Arya is NOT a mindless killing machine. Instead, she is following the man, trying to figure out who he is (whether he is good or bad) and is justifying killing him in her mind by deciding he is not a good person.

[Kandrax]

 

3 hours ago, fire&blood said:

I think you're thinking of Septon Meribald. Or I'm misremembering.

 

2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Yes it's Meribald, not the HS.

No, i mean HS. He appears in first Brienne chapter.