Arya the Good

[Dorian Martell's son]

So many nerds putting so much morality on a character from a fantasy novel.

[teej6]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So many nerds putting so much morality on a character from a fantasy novel.

What’s your point? Most discussions on this forum are about disecting and explaining characters from a fantasy novel. 

[Nowy Tends]

7 hours ago, teej6 said:

 Most discussions on this forum are about disecting and explaining characters from a fantasy novel. 

Yet in certain threads people just judge, with the morality of a 21th century priest or policeman…

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

11 hours ago, Kandrax said:

No, i mean HS. He appears in first Brienne chapter.

Yeah, the leader of the sparrows she meets on the road seems like him. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

25 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Yet in certain threads people just judge, with the morality of a 21th century priest or policeman…

Obviously you haven't had many dealings 21st century priests or policemen.

Many of them are not that far removed from Utt or Slynt 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 4/8/2018 at 4:57 PM, Nowy Tends said:

I can't see this happening: we know that FM assassins don't pick on people they know personaly. Arya will never be sent to kill a member of her family, period.

But would they know that? Jon isn't a Stark and it's been a while since he's been at the Wall as Lord Commander Snow. Also, he's stabbed and bleeding to death, so when he returns as a man, it may not be as Jon Snow. Arya also becomes no one, supposedly shedding her familial allegiances. Who really knows Arya is a Stark? Jaquen, who might not come back from his mission in Westeros. 

[HoodedCrow]

I like to think Arya is going to dump the FM, but still retain “justice” skills...since there is little of justice going on in Westeros, and unsavory ways of meting it out. I think she is slowly growing into more complex understandings of what is going on, which would be more in tune with attaining the age of more advanced reason. Yes if she remains at a black and white level her character will die physically or emotionally.

I will totally own up to being an arts and science nerd, may we rule the world! Unite!

Since I have training in psychology, I wonder if it is a coincidence that theThe Song of Ice and Fire can be appreciated in terms of Piaget’s stages of development. There is a sensory level, a black and white “concrete operations” level and then a “formal operations” or more abstract level. The abstract level leaves more room for complex understanding of characters, but it requires some contemplation.

Let me see, that would be a great question for Martin. Did you make complex characters so we could enjoy the visceral action alone, or are you pleased that we should delve into the the complex motives of the heart and the ambiguous morality of living through questioning our reactions to the characters?

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 hours ago, teej6 said:

What’s your point? Most discussions on this forum are about disecting and explaining characters from a fantasy novel. 

I believe you are smart enough to understand my point. 

8 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

Yet in certain threads people just judge, with the morality of a 21th century priest or policeman…

Like this person 

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Obviously you haven't had many dealings 21st century priests or policemen.

Many of them are not that far removed from Utt or Slynt 

and this person 

[teej6]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I believe you are smart enough to understand my point. 

And I believe you’re smart enough to know that my question was a rhetorical one 

[Dorian Martell's son]

13 minutes ago, teej6 said:

And I believe you’re smart enough to know that my question was a rhetorical one 

Not at all. And I appreciate your attempt to backpedal 

[John Suburbs]

From a fan summary on a speech GR gave to Harvard, Jan 2006

Quote

He also answered some questions, and had some interesting things to say. He repeatedly emphasized that he prefers to write grey characters, because in real life people are complex; no one is pure evil or pure good. Fiction tends to divide people into heroes who do no wrong and villains who go home and kick their dogs and beat their wives, but that reality is much different. He cited a soldier who heroically saves his friends' lives, but then goes home and beats his wife. Which is he, hero or villain? Martin said both and that neither act cancels out the other.

Kind of sums up Arya, and every other character for that matter.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

5 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Kind of sums up Arya, and every other character for that matter.

Except for Hot Pie and Podrick Payne who are SCUM, and I'm going to write a 1,000 word essay to prove it.

In all seriousness, compared to many other characters in the books, Arya is actually one of the most forgivable for whatever she does. Her age and the traumatic experiences alone should serve to mitigate any of her supposed crimes.

Also, even in 21st century terms, an 11 year old girl who killed a child rapist and murderer would be celebrated the world over. 

[Damon_Tor]

On 4/10/2018 at 0:40 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

Bran is far worse!  I grant you, skin changing Hodor is abusive and unethical.  Arya murdered a man who had done her no wrong.  What Arya did is worse than a lapse in ethics.  

 

Hard to weigh the ethics, honestly. Is killing someone worse than torturing them?

Thought experiment:

When Ramsay Bolton took Winterfell from Theon, I strongly suspect we would feel very differently about how evil he is if, instead of torturing Theon to the point where his sense of self is shattered, he had simply given him a quick death. What Bran is doing to Hodor is no different from what Ramsay did to Theon.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

What Bran is doing to Hodor is no different from what Ramsay did to Theon.

So Bran is deliberately and systematically torturing Hodor in order to break his spirit and bend him to his will? 

[Nowy Tends]

27 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

 What Bran is doing to Hodor is no different from what Ramsay did to Theon.

Gross.

[Damon_Tor]

On 4/13/2018 at 2:49 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

So Bran is deliberately and systematically torturing Hodor in order to break his spirit and bend him to his will? 

Yes. Explicitly. I suppose one could argue that the torture and spirit-breaking is a side effect of the bending him to his will and not the method by which his will is imposed, but I hardly see how that makes a difference from a moral perspective. Bonus points: Bran doesn't even have a good reason for it, not after the first time anyway. He does it because he's bored.

On 4/13/2018 at 2:58 AM, Nowy Tends said:

Gross.

Very.

[The Mother of The Others]

Hodor doesn't have anywhere to be.  If he wasn't getting possessed he'd just be sitting there staring at Bran waiting to be told to freshen up the chamber pot.   But now by taking over his body you've given him a more interesting day.    Bran is you.  When you were 14 and stole mom's car from out the driveway and cruised round the block at 3 mph.   Only difference is what Bran's doing is important life or death shit.

[Damon_Tor]

3 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Hodor doesn't have anywhere to be.  If he wasn't getting possessed he'd just be sitting there staring at Bran waiting to be told to freshen up the chamber pot.   But now by taking over his body you've given him a more interesting day.    Bran is you.  When you were 14 and stole mom's car from out the driveway and cruised round the block at 3 mph.   Only difference is what Bran's doing is important life or death shit.

Bran takes over Hodor because he's bored, he wants to, and he can. He doesn't even try to justify it to himself. It's not "life or death shit".

[The Mother of The Others]

You must be right then.  Also, i lied about you being Bran.  You're you, and Bran is separate from you.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

Yes. Explicitly. I suppose one could argue that the torture and spirit-breaking is a side effect of the bending him to his will and not the method by which his will is imposed, but I hardly see how that makes a difference from a moral perspective. Bonus points: Bran doesn't even have a good reason for it, not after the first time anyway. He does it because he's bored.

We're clearly reading different books.

I don't know if I can be bothered to argue about this nonsense.