Beware the perfumed seneschal

[Tagganaro]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And yet... When Daenerys considers bailing, it's Reznaks who wails and begs her to stay...

Interestingly enough, while Reznak is the obvious candidate I don't think it's him either.  For one thing, it's a little too obvious...Dany is skeptical of him from the beginning anyway.  For another, and more importantly, all the other things mentioned by Quaithe in that prophecy are living creatures that have yet to arrive in Meereen IIRC (and some of them will never arrive due to change in plans).  To me, looking at the prophecy more carefully, Quaithe is warning Dany of people and animals headed her way.  The pale mare is obviously the flux (through the sick person on the horse), followed by the Kraken Victarion and the Dark Flame Moqorro. The next 4 things seem to pretty clearly refer to Connington, Faegon, Tyrion and Quentyn.  All of these are people that are headed Dany's way but have not yet arrived.

Now it should be noted that clearly there is a break here in Quaithe's sentence.  She follows up these things by saying trust none of the aforementioned people, then says remember the Undying, and only THEN does she say beware of the perfumed seneschal.  Is this break meant to differentiate the perfumed seneschal from the other people headed her way?  

I'm not sure who the perfumed seneschal is meant to refer to, although I am beginning to think Varys and/or Illyrio.  My issue with it being the boat Tyrion is on is that it's a bit redundant- She's already warning Dany of both Tyrion and Moqorro who are on that boat, and besides for the Pale Mare (which also technically is referring to a living thing as its the horse that brings the flux), every other thing Quaithe warns Dany of is a living person.  So I'm not sure if it makes sense that she'd be warned of a boat.  

[Lord Lannister]

Am I the only one who thinks Qaithe's "prophecies" are full of it and she's deliberately misleading Dany into be distrustful of everyone around her?

[Lollygag]

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But haven't too many come to fruition to call the prophecies in ASOIAF bulls&!t? 

Eh, my memory is apparently on the blitz (a bit under the weather). Which am I forgetting?

[Lollygag]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Arrg, as I was scrolling though the thread it hit me that the only servant not mentioned is the most untrustworthy: Littlefinger. I don't recall any mention of him wearing perfume, but he is minty, and who's to say he won't start scenting himself by the time he runs into Dany.

The descriptions of his minty breath are so...mustache twirly? that for me the minty breath maybe stands on its own. No more perfume needed.

 

[Lollygag]

8 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Am I the only one who thinks Qaithe's "prophecies" are full of it and she's deliberately misleading Dany into be distrustful of everyone around her?

I consider it, but given that the books tend to favor scenarios which are ambiguous, I lean more towards that. She's wrong about Aegon and JonCon, so we're definitely supposed to question her.

We've been in Quentyn's and Victarion's heads, so I don't entirely understand her warning about them. It's not like Dany couldn't have navigated her way around the marriage proposals and come to some other agreement. I wonder if the warning was more about Dany not letting herself be drug into the Game of Thrones and becoming distracted from her destiny as Bride of Fire hence the reminders of the Undying.

[Lord Lannister]

2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I consider it, but given that the books tend to favor scenarios which are ambiguous, I lean more towards that. She's wrong about Aegon and JonCon, so we're definitely supposed to question her.

We've been in Quentyn's and Victarion's heads, so I don't entirely understand her warning about them. It's not like Dany couldn't have navigated her way around the marriage proposals and come to some other agreement. I wonder if the warning was more about Dany not letting herself be drug into the Game of Thrones and becoming distracted from her destiny as Bride of Fire hence the reminders of the Undying.

I figured Qaithe just dangled enough morsels in front of her that were true, to keep her questioning everything else. How better to harm her than to keep her guessing and potentially get her to shoot herself in the foot by not trusting anyone?

[Lollygag]

Just now, Lord Lannister said:

I figured Qaithe just dangled enough morsels in front of her that were true, to keep her questioning everything else. How better to harm her than to keep her guessing and potentially get her to shoot herself in the foot by not trusting anyone?

That is an extremely effective tactic. Has been used successfully with Aerys, Cersei, Ned, Sansa, probably more if I think on it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Eh, my memory is apparently on the blitz (a bit under the weather). Which am I forgetting?

The prophecies central to The Hedge Knight and the Mystery Knight. Maggy's prophecies other than the valonqar and more beautiful queen, which have yet to be fulfilled, Daenerys's dragon dreams, the pale mare, kraken dark flame, lion, griffin, the sun's son, the dead man with the head of a wolf and Patchface's didy about blood, the drowning of Winterfell, the killing of the Miller's sons, the Ghost of High Heart's visions, except the slaying of the giant, which has yet to be fulfilled, Renly's men joining Stannis, and Renly defeating Stannis at the Blackwater, the girl on the dying horse, the Weeper's victims. 

[Lollygag]

22 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The prophecies central to The Hedge Knight and the Mystery Knight. Maggy's prophecies other than the valonqar and more beautiful queen, which have yet to be fulfilled, Daenerys's dragon dreams, the pale mare, kraken dark flame, lion, griffin, the sun's son, the dead man with the head of a wolf and Patchface's didy about blood, the drowning of Winterfell, the killing of the Miller's sons, the Ghost of High Heart's visions, except the slaying of the giant, which has yet to be fulfilled, Renly's men joining Stannis, and Renly defeating Stannis at the Blackwater, the girl on the dying horse, the Weeper's victims. 

I've not really delved too much into Dunk and Egg so don't know there. Right now, I'm inclined that the valonqar prophesy is perhaps more of a curse/vision and Cersei's actions lead to right to those types of ends. I'm seeing a number of possible simultaneous valonqars including the "little brother" Red Lion Reynes as Maggy's family has names which are very similar to the Reynes so I'll wait and see on that one. Quathe was wrong about the griffin and the mummer's dragon coming and Quathe's prophesy sounds also a lot like a vision. Depending on the timing, some of it could be intel/magical spying, too. Being wrong on JonCon/Aegon makes me lean towards intel/magical spying.  I categorize Patchface as having visions.

I put a lot more stock in dreams and visions than prophesy. I could change my mind though depending on how things go.

AFFC Samwell V

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've not really delved too much into Dunk and Egg so don't know there. Right now, I'm inclined that the valonqar prophesy is perhaps more of a curse/vision and Cersei's actions lead to right to those types of ends. I'm seeing a number of possible simultaneous valonqars including the "little brother" Red Lion Reynes as Maggy's family has names which are very similar to the Reynes so I'll wait and see on that one. Quathe was wrong about the griffin and the mummer's dragon coming and Quathe's prophesy sounds also a lot like a vision. Depending on the timing, some of it could be intel/magical spying, too. Being wrong on JonCon/Aegon makes me lean towards intel/magical spying.  I categorize Patchface as having visions.

I put a lot more stock in dreams and visions than prophesy. I could change my mind though depending on how things go.

AFFC Samwell V

 

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

I am not smart enough to distinguish among prophecies, dreams, and visions; or maybe I am just too lazy. 

As to prophecies biting your prick off... all that means is beware of the twist. This is my favorite possible twist. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am not smart enough to distinguish among prophecies, dreams, and visions; or maybe I am just too lazy. 

As to prophecies biting your prick off... all that means is beware of the twist. This is my favorite possible twist. 

Yeah, I've noticed that some on the forum distinguish them and some don't. But I'm totally down with selective laziness. Life's too short to force yourself through something that's ultimately unnecessary. 

I do think we'll get twists, just not a clear single answer.

I think it's more about how the character sees and interprets these things. We're finding out a lot about Dany by how she tries processing these. Jorah did betray her, but he became maybe one of the most loyal to her after he got to know her (and develop a creepy crush on her). So does Dany really consider it betrayal? Or is she just trying to check one off the list so she doesn't have to worry about them anymore? Is being told that she'll be betrayed affecting her own views? We learn something about Arya when the Ghost of Highheart tells her something which I think most would be unnerved by, yet Arya is not. Maggy knew that Cersei was going to kill Melara thus could conclude that Cersei was paranoid among other things. When you read how Maggy worded the prophesy to Cersei, it feeds right into that paranoia making it almost certain that Cersei would walk right into that end. Maggy's words to Cersei can be broken down two ways: the first part is a direct answer to her question. The second part which Maggy offers freely is there to mess with her head. Jon reads the Azor Ahai prophesy and generally blows it off, but he does tell us immediately after who he considers his own Nissa Nissa regardless of who's actually Azor Ahai: it's Ghost.

[Megorova]

13 hours ago, Lollygag said:

We've been in Quentyn's and Victarion's heads, so I don't entirely understand her warning about them.

Quentyn tried to steal her dragons. Isn't that enough to be weary of him? Even though he failed, nevertheless now Dany's dragons are on the loose, because of him.

Also for some reason, even though the kraken was paired up with dark flame, I still think that the one, about whom Quaithe warned Dany, is not Victarion, it's Euron.

"Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon."

Quentyn there was also paired up with fAegon, but they weren't together, and now one of them is dead. At certain point in time Tyrion (lion) was with Jon Connington (griffin), so maybe Quaithe's predictions were actually based on what she saw using glass candles. So it's not prophecies, more like it's intel gathered by spying.

So then the lion and griffin were paired up, because they sailed on the same ship. Thus based on this, readers made an assumption, that if kraken and dark flame are paired up, then that's because they are sailling on the same ship. Though when Tyrion and JonCon were sailing together, fAegon was also with them. So if Quaithe's warning was about them then, then she would have said - lion and griffin and mummer's dragon, not separated them into different groups, and also paired up fAegon with Quentyn.

Though maybe them being paired up, means not that they will arrive to Dany together, more like it's a hint about the way they will die - Quentyn was burned by dragons, so maybe him mentioned in a pair with fAegon, means that fAegon will also be burned by Dany's dragons. Tyrion and Connington paired up together probably means that both of them will survive, they will serve to Dany, and will be useful for her.

So kraken and dark flame paired up together, could mean not that they are sailing together, or even that they will come to Dany at the same time, or close one after another. It could mean that they will share the same fate, die the same death - both of them will be burned (though one of them will be happy to die like that).

Back to your post - we weren't in Euron's head. Also what Quaithe said, doesn't necessary mean, that all those people are comming to Dany. It only means that she will meet them, and not necessary while she will be still in Meereen. It's obvious that fAegon and JonCon are not going to return to Essos. Thus with those two Dany will meet in Westeros. So same could be about Euron, the kraken. She may meet him in Westeros, when he will get to Iron Throne. So even though kraken and dark flame are paired up together in Quaithe's prediction, same as were paired up together Quentyn and fAegon, it doesn't mean that they will come to Dany together, thus that kraken may not be Victarion, who is sailing to Dany together with dark flame, who is red priest Moqorro. That kraken is Euron. Because when in TWOW

Spoiler

Euron made Aeron to drink the shade of the evening, and he had visions, in one of them Euron was a kraken-like figure with tentacles on the Iron Throne, with a woman by his side.

 

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Quentyn tried to steal her dragons. Isn't that enough to be weary of him? Even though he failed, nevertheless now Dany's dragons are on the loose, because of him.

Also for some reason, even though the kraken was paired up with dark flame, I still think that the one, about whom Quaithe warned Dany, is not Victarion, it's Euron.

"Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon."

Quentyn there was also paired up with fAegon, but they weren't together, and now one of them is dead. At certain point in time Tyrion (lion) was with Jon Connington (griffin), so maybe Quaithe's predictions were actually based on what she saw using glass candles. So it's not prophecies, more like it's intel gathered by spying.

So then the lion and griffin were paired up, because they sailed on the same ship. Thus based on this, readers made an assumption, that if kraken and dark flame are paired up, then that's because they are sailling on the same ship. Though when Tyrion and JonCon were sailing together, fAegon was also with them. So if Quaithe's warning was about them then, then she would have said - lion and griffin and mummer's dragon, not separated them into different groups, and also paired up fAegon with Quentyn.

Though maybe them being paired up, means not that they will arrive to Dany together, more like it's a hint about the way they will die - Quentyn was burned by dragons, so maybe him mentioned in a pair with fAegon, means that fAegon will also be burned by Dany's dragons. Tyrion and Connington paired up together probably means that both of them will survive, they will serve to Dany, and will be useful for her.

So kraken and dark flame paired up together, could mean not that they are sailing together, or even that they will come to Dany at the same time, or close one after another. It could mean that they will share the same fate, die the same death - both of them will be burned (though one of them will be happy to die like that).

Back to your post - we weren't in Euron's head. Also what Quaithe said, doesn't necessary mean, that all those people are comming to Dany. It only means that she will meet them, and not necessary while she will be still in Meereen. It's obvious that fAegon and JonCon are not going to return to Essos. Thus with those two Dany will meet in Westeros. So same could be about Euron, the kraken. She may meet him in Westeros, when he will get to Iron Throne. So even though kraken and dark flame are paired up together in Quaithe's prediction, same as were paired up together Quentyn and fAegon, it doesn't mean that they will come to Dany together, thus that kraken may not be Victarion, who is sailing to Dany together with dark flame, who is red priest Moqorro. That kraken is Euron. Because when in TWOW

  Reveal hidden contents

Euron made Aeron to drink the shade of the evening, and he had visions, in one of them Euron was a kraken-like figure with tentacles on the Iron Throne, with a woman by his side.

 

Your post has me thinking in much more detail!

I think the warning is not so much about threats to Dany’s person or dragons so much as warning her away from the Game of Thrones and remember the Undying, that she is Bride of Fire, not to be bride of other rando guys who will entangle her in more mundane things.

I’ve landed at the above conclusion because I thought about Quentyn and the dragons are past the point that they could be stolen unless someone would be able to bond with them. No one is coming to Dany without wanting something from her in turn, so someone would have to meet a certain level to merit a warning, and Quentyn doesn’t do it for me, nor Aegon. Certainly there are those around her more dangerous than those two and better deserving of a warning if Quathe was telling Dany about threats. However, they do become extremely dangerous to her if Quathe is warning about the Game of Thrones.

I agree that the pairings are important and it’s not by how they’d be arriving. But I do think the warning is about Victarion and Moqorro who is called Black Flame, JonCon and Tyrion (who would both seek to advise her and very much have their own axes to gring), and Quentyn and Aegon (her competing suitors nevermind she’s already married). If Quathe was warning Dany of all of her big threats including her time in Westeros, then the list would be much longer, so that begs the question of why mention Euron and not everybody else who would have an agenda regarding Dany? Quentyn can’t be a bigger threat than any of them. No mention of the FM, the Maesters, Stannis and Mel, various families either not so hot on the Targs or at least Dany's brand of fire and blood/Unsullied/Dothraki Targ.

I do think the warning is about her immediate future, specifically who is about to land on her doorstep in Meereen. She will have a different set of threats when she gets to Westeros which definitely merit strong warning, yet Quathe is silent on those.

But your post makes me think that a perfumed seneschal is an immediate threat to her as opposed to someone she may encounter later.

I do think Quathe indirectly brought up Euron, maybe the Others. Remember the Undying.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 4/10/2018 at 9:08 PM, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Also, notice how this warning is spoken separately from the others. Seems to me like she's putting emphasis on this one. 

It is good to notice this. The full quote for easy reference:

Quote

 

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

 

The first six are separated from the perfumed seneschal. They are all, at the time of this message from Quaithe, on their way to Mereen.

Maybe the perfumed seneschal is not on his way to Mereen?

Another reason for the separation could be that the perfumed seneschal is someone Dany already knows. She has never met the others.

Illyrio. He fits the best from the clues in the books.

Quote

It was warm and close inside behind the curtains. Dany could smell the stench of Illyrio's pallid flesh through his heavy perfumes.

We are told he wears perfumes. He wears perfumes specifically for the purpose of covering up his stinkiness.

Quote

Dany had no agents, no way of knowing what anyone was doing or thinking across the narrow sea, but she mistrusted Illyrio's sweet words as she mistrusted everything about Illyrio. Her brother was nodding eagerly, however. "I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father."

"That would be most fitting," Magister Illyrio said. Dany saw the smallest hint of a smile playing around his full lips, but her brother did not notice. Nodding, he pushed back a curtain and stared off into the night, and Dany knew he was fighting the Battle of the Trident once again.

Dany clearly has a reason to beware of Illyrio. 

Finally, consider the dictionary.com definition of seneschal: 

an officer having full charge of domestc arrangements, ceremonies, the administration of justice, etc., in the household of a medieval prince or dignitary;steward.

This fits Illyrio very well. He is in charge of many arrangements (Dany's marriage, fAegon, etc...).

We also have this quote from Moqorro from DwD, Tyrion VIII:

  Quote

Yes and no. The world's deliverer may snick off my head or give me to her dragons as a savory. "Not me," said Tyrion. "For me, it is all about the olives. Though I fear I may grow old and die before I taste one. I could dog-paddle faster than we're sailing. Tell me, was Selaesori Qhoran a triarch or a turtle?"

The red priest chuckled. "Neither. Qhoran is … not a ruler, but one who serves and counsels such, and helps conduct his business. You of Westeros might say steward or magister."

 

[Lollygag]

Illyrio's definitely a good fit, but it just comes off to me as redundant and underwhelming for both Dany and the reader to say the least.

 

Hey Dany? Know that sleezy, gross guy you’ve distrusted from the beginning who sold you into virtual slavery to a Dothraki horse lord and whom you’ve blown off for almost the entire series now? Don’t trust him.

I don’t.

Yeah, well, keep not trusting him.

????

 

Makes more sense to warn Dany of someone she is inclined to trust.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I think the warning is not so much about threats to Dany’s person or dragons so much as warning her away from the Game of Thrones and remember the Undying, that she is Bride of Fire, not to be bride of other rando guys who will entangle her in more mundane things.

Absolutely. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Illyrio's definitely a good fit, but it just comes off to me as redundant and underwhelming for both Dany and the reader to say the least.

 

Hey Dany? Know that sleezy, gross guy you’ve distrusted from the beginning who sold you into virtual slavery to a Dothraki horse lord and whom you’ve blown off for almost the entire series now? Don’t trust him.

 

I don’t.

 

Yeah, well, keep not trusting him.

 

????

 

 

Makes more sense to warn Dany of someone she is inclined to trust.

 

 

But doesn't she call him a friend... I think it's when Tatters suggests that he would turn cloak for Pentos??

[Lollygag]

13 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

But doesn't she call him a friend... I think it's when Tatters suggests that he would turn cloak for Pentos??

It's been a while. Can you point me to the chapter?

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

If Quathe was warning Dany of all of her big threats including her time in Westeros, then the list would be much longer, so that begs the question of why mention Euron and not everybody else who would have an agenda regarding Dany?

Quaithe wasn't warning Dany about everything that will happen with her, for the rest of her life, only about those that will be in her near future, a year or so.

Also look - Euron, Jon Connington, and fAegon are in Westeros, while Moqorro, Tyrion and Quentyn are in Essos. Out of those three, first she met Quentyn, next will be Tyrion, and the last one, probably will be Moqorro. So in Westeros first Dany will meet fAegon, probably at Storm's End, or at Dragonstone. Then she will meet Jon Connington, because at the time of her encounter with fAegon, JonCon will be away, probably at Citadel, looking for a cure for his greyscale. And the last one out of Westeros three, will be Euron, because he will be in King's Landing, on Iron Throne.

So that warning ends in King's Landing. Dany's futher travels, for example to The North or The Wall, will be further into the future, than what Quaithe saw.

And maybe the reason why they were separated into those couples, is because of who they are: Quentyn and fAegon - prospective fiances, Tyrion and JonCon - advisors, that can tell her useful information, including about her family and people of 7K, Moqorro and Euron - users of magic.

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

I do think Quathe indirectly brought up Euron, maybe the Others. Remember the Undying.

I saw this, as Quaithe warning her, that same as the Undying intended to use her, those people are also have their own goals in mind, and when they will come to Dany, they will be pursuing those goals.

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

They are all, at the time of this message from Quaithe, on their way to Mereen.

fAegon and JonCon never intended to go to Meereen. They were expecting, based on information provided by Illyrio, that Dany will shortly arrive to Volantis. That's where they were heading. Going to Meereen never was in their plans.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

fAegon and JonCon never intended to go to Meereen. They were expecting, based on information provided by Illyrio, that Dany will shortly arrive to Volantis. That's where they were heading. Going to Meereen never was in their plans.

Yes. I should have said, "going to Dany."