Beware the perfumed seneschal

[Lollygag]

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Quaithe wasn't warning Dany about everything that will happen with her, for the rest of her life, only about those that will be in her near future, a year or so.

Also look - Euron, Jon Connington, and fAegon are in Westeros, while Moqorro, Tyrion and Quentyn are in Essos. Out of those three, first she met Quentyn, next will be Tyrion, and the last one, probably will be Moqorro. So in Westeros first Dany will meet fAegon, probably at Storm's End, or at Dragonstone. Then she will meet Jon Connington, because at the time of her encounter with fAegon, JonCon will be away, probably at Citadel, looking for a cure for his greyscale. And the last one out of Westeros three, will be Euron, because he will be in King's Landing, on Iron Throne.

So that warning ends in King's Landing. Dany's futher travels, for example to The North or The Wall, will be further into the future, than what Quaithe saw.

And maybe the reason why they were separated into those couples, is because of who they are: Quentyn and fAegon - prospective fiances, Tyrion and JonCon - advisors, that can tell her useful information, including about her family and people of 7K, Moqorro and Euron - users of magic.

If she was warning about threats a year or so into the future, there's still a lot missing with bigger threats than Quentyn and Aegon omitted. I doesn't work for me.

As for the bolded, too many assumptions and the series tends to not go in predictable ways. Right now, think it's more likely Dany will land in the Vale on Tyrion's advice already knowing about the Others, but a lot can happen and will happen between now and then...

I agree with your last paragraph , but now Vicky is magical too. Don't think the Kraken is Euron when Vicky is right on her doorstep.

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

fAegon and JonCon never intended to go to Meereen. They were expecting, based on information provided by Illyrio, that Dany will shortly arrive to Volantis. That's where they were heading. Going to Meereen never was in their plans.

They did when they realized Dany was still there. Aegon was going to go to go to Meereen "begging" as Tyrion put it but he convinced him that going to Westeros would be better and make him look less lame (and hopefully take out Cersei).

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

45 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's been a while. Can you point me to the chapter?

Dany IX, Dance 

Quote

And if I never march for Westeros? "Pentos belongs to the Pentoshi. And Magister Illyrio is in Pentos. He who arranged my marriage to Khal Drogo and gave me my dragon eggs. Who sent me you, and Belwas, and Groleo. I owe him much and more. I will not repay that debt by giving his city to some sellsword. No."

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Interesting side note: Tyrion gives fAegon a very similar message when they play their game of cyvasse.

Quote

"Perhaps you should be the fool instead of me. Trust no one, my prince. Not your chainless maester, not your false father, not the gallant Duck nor the lovely Lemore nor these other fine friends who grew you from a bean. Above all, trust not the cheesemonger, nor the Spider, nor this little dragon queen you mean to marry. All that mistrust will sour your stomach and keep you awake by night, 'tis true, but better that than the long sleep that does not end."

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

It's been a while. Can you point me to the chapter?

I believe these passages show that Daenerys thinks of Illyrio as a friend and ally...

Quote

"House Targaryen has friends in the Free Cities," she reminded him. "Truer friends than Xaro or the Pureborn."

"If you mean Illyrio Mopatis, I wonder. For sufficient gold, Illyrio would sell you as quickly as he would a slave."

"My brother and I were guests in Illyrio's manse for half a year. If he meant to sell us, he could have done it then."

"He did sell you," Ser Jorah said. "To Khal Drogo."

Dany flushed. He had the truth of it, but she did not like the sharpness with which he put it. "Illyrioprotected us from the Usurper's knives, and he believed in my brother's cause."

"Illyrio believes in no cause but Illyrio. Gluttons are greedy men as a rule, and magisters are devious. Illyrio Mopatis is both. What do you truly know of him?"

"I know that he gave me my dragon eggs."

He snorted. "If he'd known they were like to hatch, he'd would have sat on them himself."

That made her smile despite herself. "Oh, I have no doubt of that, ser. I know Illyrio better than you think. I was a child when I left his manse in Pentosto wed my sun-and-stars, but I was neither deaf nor blind. And I am no child now."

"Even if Illyrio is the friend you think him," the knight said stubbornly, "he is not powerful enough to enthrone you by himself, no more than he could your brother."

"He is rich," she said. "Not so rich as Xaro, perhaps, but rich enough to hire ships for me, and men as well."

Daenerys II, Clash 40

Quote

"Khaleesi, has it occurred to you that Whitebeard and Belwas might have been in league with the assassin? It might all have been a ploy to win your trust."

Her sudden laughter made Drogon hiss, and sentViserion flapping to his perch above the porthole. "The ploy worked well."

The exile knight did not return her smile. "These are Illyrio's ships, Illyrio's captains, Illyrio's sailors . . . and Strong Belwas and Arstan are his men as well, not yours."

"Magister Illyrio has protected me in the past. Strong Belwas says that he wept when he heard my brother was dead."

"Yes," said Mormont, "but did he weep for Viserys, or for the plans he had made with him?"

"His plans need not change. Magister Illyrio is a friend to House Targaryen, and wealthy . . . "

"He was not born wealthy. In the world as I have seen it, no man grows rich by kindness. The warlocks said the second treason would be for gold. What does Illyrio Mopatis love more than gold?"

"His skin." Across the cabin Drogon stirred restlessly, steam rising from his snout. "Mirri MazDuur betrayed me. I burned her for it."

"Mirri Maz Duur was in your power. In Pentos, you shall be in Illyrio's power. It is not the same. I know the magister as well as you. He is a devious man, and clever—"

"I need clever men about me if I am to win the Iron Throne."

Ser Jorah snorted. "That wineseller who tried to poison you was a clever man as well. Clever men hatch ambitious schemes."

Dany drew her legs up beneath the blanket. "You will protect me. You, and my bloodriders."

"Four men? Khaleesi, you believe you know IllyrioMopatis, very well. Yet you insist on surrounding yourself with men you do not know, like this puffed-up eunuch and the world's oldest squire. Take a lesson from Pyat Pree and Xaro XhoanDaxos."

He means well, Dany reminded herself. He does all he does for love. "It seems to me that a queen who trusts no one is as foolish as a queen who trusts everyone. Every man I take into my service is a risk, I understand that, but how am I to win the Seven Kingdoms without such risks? Am I to conquer Westeros with one exile knight and three Dothraki bloodriders?"

His jaw set stubbornly. "Your path is dangerous, I will not deny that. But if you blindly trust in every liar and schemer who crosses it, you will end as your brothers did."

His obstinacy made her angry. He treats me like some child. "Strong Belwas could not scheme his way to breakfast. And what lies has ArstanWhitebeard told me?"

"He is not what he pretends to be. He speaks to you more boldly than any squire would dare."

"He spoke frankly at my command. He knew my brother."

"A great many men knew your brother. Your Grace, in Westeros the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard sits on the small council, and serves the king with his wits as well as his steel. If I am the first of your Queensguard, I pray you, hear me out. I have a plan to put to you."

"What plan? Tell me."

"Illyrio Mopatis wants you back in Pentos, under his roof. Very well, go to him . . . but in your own time, and not alone. Let us see how loyal and obedient these new subjects of yours truly are. Command Groleo to change course for Slaver's Bay."

Dany was not certain she liked the sound of that at all. Everything she'd ever heard of the flesh marts in the great slave cities of Yunkai, Meereen, and Astapor was dire and frightening. "What is there for me in Slaver's Bay?"

"An army," said Ser Jorah. "If Strong Belwas is so much to your liking you can buy hundreds more like him out of the fighting pits of Meereen . . . but it is Astapor I'd set my sails for. In Astapor you can buy Unsullied."

"The slaves in the spiked bronze hats?" Dany had seen Unsullied guards in the Free Cities, posted at the gates of magisters, archons, and dynasts. "Why should I want Unsullied? They don't even ride horses, and most of them are fat."

"The Unsullied you may have seen in Pentos andMyr were household guards. That's soft service, and eunuchs tend to plumpness in any case. Food is the only vice allowed them. To judge all Unsullied by a few old household slaves is like judging all squires by Arstan Whitebeard, Your Grace. Do you know the tale of the Three Thousand of Qohor?"

...

"That is what you will find in Astapor, Your Grace. Put ashore there, and continue on to Pentosoverland. It will take longer, yes . . . but when you break bread with Magister Illyrio, you will have a thousand swords behind you, not just four."

There is wisdom in this, yes, Dany thought, but . . . "How am I to buy a thousand slave soldiers? All I have of value is the crown the Tourmaline Brotherhood gave me."

"Dragons will be as great a wonder in Astapor as they were in Qarth. It may be that the slavers will shower you with gifts, as the Qartheen did. If not . . . these ships carry more than your Dothraki and their horses. They took on trade goods at Qarth, I've been through the holds and seen for myself. Bolts of silk and bales of tiger skin, amber and jade carvings, saffron, myrrh . . . slaves are cheap, Your Grace. Tiger skins are costly."

"Those are Illyrio's tiger skins," she objected.

"And Illyrio is a friend to House Targaryen."

"All the more reason not to steal his goods."

"What use are wealthy friends if they will not put their wealth at your disposal, my queen? If Magister Illyrio would deny you, he is only XaroXhoan Daxos with four chins. And if he is sincere in his devotion to your cause, he will not begrudge you three shiploads of trade goods. What better use for his tiger skins than to buy you the beginnings of an army?"

That's true. Dany felt a rising excitement. "There will be dangers on such a long march . . . "

"There are dangers at sea as well. Corsairs and pirates hunt the southern route, and north ofValyria the Smoking Sea is demon-haunted. The next storm could sink or scatter us, a kraken could pull us under . . . or we might find ourselves becalmed again, and die of thirst as we wait for the wind to rise. A march will have different dangers, my queen, but none greater."

"What if Captain Groleo refuses to change course, though? And Arstan, Strong Belwas, what will they do?"

Ser Jorah stood. "Perhaps it's time you found that out."

Daenerys, I, Storm 8

Quote

"When the day comes that you raise your banners, half of Westeros will be with you," Whitebeard promised. "Your brother Rhaegar is still remembered, with great love."

"And my father?" Dany said.

"Your Grace. We set the woman Meris free, as you commanded. Before she went, she asked to speak with you. I met with her instead. She claims this Tattered Prince meant to bring the Windblown over to your cause from the beginning. That he sent her here to treat with you secretly, but the Dornishmen unmasked them and betrayed them before she could make her own approach."

Treachery on treachery, the queen thought wearily. Is there no end to it? "How much of this do you believe, ser?"

"Little and less, Your Grace, but those were her words."

"Will they come over to us, if need be?"

"She says they will. But for a price."

"Pay it." Meereen needed iron, not gold. "The Tattered Prince will want more than coin, Your Grace. Meris says that he wants Pentos."

"Pentos?" Her eyes narrowed. "How can I give himPentos? It is half a world away."

"He would be willing to wait, the woman Merissuggested. Until we march for Westeros."

And if I never march for Westeros? "Pentosbelongs to the Pentoshi. And Magister Illyrio is inPentos. He who arranged my marriage to KhalDrogo and gave me my dragon eggs. Who sent me you, and Belwas, and Groleo. I owe him much and more. I will not repay that debt by giving his city to some sellsword. No."

Ser Barristan inclined his head. "Your Grace is wise."

Danerys IX, Dance 52

[Lost Melnibonean]

I found the quote below while looking for the passages I quoted above...

Quote

"From Meereen I am sold to Qohor, and then to Pentos and the fat man with sweet stink in his hair. He it was who send Strong Belwas back across the sea, and old Whitebeard to serve him."

Daenerys V. Clash 63

A stinky steward, indeed...

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

17 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I found the quote below while looking for the passages I quoted above...

Daenerys V. Clash 63

A stinky steward, indeed...

Nice find. 

Is there anyone besides Illyrio that wears perfume for the specific purpose of covering up stink? Yezzan, maybe?

If so, that is interesting as well because he is called the "Yellow Whale" and Tyrion describes his appearance: 

Quote

Covered all in yellow silk fringed with gold, he looked as large as four Illyrios. Tyrion pitied the slaves who had to carry him. At least we will be spared that duty. What joy to be a dwarf.

 

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

As for the bolded, too many assumptions and the series tends to not go in predictable ways. Right now, think it's more likely Dany will land in the Vale on Tyrion's advice already knowing about the Others, but a lot can happen and will happen between now and then...

That's not exactly assumptions, more like logical deductions, based on known information, mostly on chapters from TWOW.

Spoiler

Tyrion is closer to Meereen than Moqorro. And seems that in his next chapter, he will be already in Barristan's close circle. He will get there thru Barristan's "invitation" to Tattered Prince to change sides. And in his last chapter, Tatters announced that now they are Dany's people. Ironborn ships were also attacking Yunkaii, but they don't have access to Dany's people. Barristan doesn't know Ironborns, as he sort of knows Tatters and Ben Plumm, so Meereen people are not going to invite Ironborn to join them. Thus it's obvious that Tyrion will get to Meereen sooner than Moqorro.

Next about JonCon not being there, when Dany will arrive to Westeros. In his latest chapter in Winds, he was thinking how much time has he left, that he can stay with fAegon. And he was trying to keep his disease from spreading, by bathing his hand in wine. When fAegon came to him, he announced that next, they are going to attack Storm's End. It's obvious that people at Storm's End know about Shireen's greyscale. Maester Cressen is dead. He was family doctor of Baratheons. And it's not often, that people with greyscale, have their own personal maesters. Thus it's likely, that Cressen was making observations about Shireen's state, and after his death, his records were sent to Citadel. So it's likely that JonCon will go to Citadel, after he will hear from local Stormlanders about Shireen's greyscale, and that maester Cressen managed to stop her disease.

About Dany first meeting fAegon, this part is based on Melisandre's vision.

"Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky."

" “If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.”

“Eastwatch?”

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different"

Black and bloody tide with skulls attacked towers by the sea. That's Golden Company under Targaryen black and red banners, attacking Storm's End.

There's not that many castles in Westeros, that are near sealine - from north to south - Eastwatch, Widow's Watch, Oldcastle, Gulltown, Dragonstone, King's Landing, Storm's End, Griffin's Roost (this is where Golden Company was in their latest chapter). There's no reason for Golden Company to attack first five, and it's too soon to attack King's Landing, also GC were intending to attack Storm's End, while carrying Targaryen banners.

And in Melisandre's vision, some time after GC seized Storm's End, Dany's dragons were also there. After Dany will hear that supposedly Aegon Targaryen is alive, then she will go to see him, and thus Melisandre saw those winged shadows flying amongst fire. Even though Dany will know about the Others and wildlings in Hardhome, it isn't necessary for her to personally go there, to save those people. So her fleet will sail north, while Dany with her dragons will fly to Storm's End, to slay a lie about mummer's dragon.

And it's unlikely that those sea towers were King's Landing. Because probably Melisandre knows how KL looks, and also based on Aeron's vision, KL will be under Euron's control, so Stormlands is where fAegon's progress will be stopped. Melisandre visited Dragonstone, but didn't went with Stannis to Storm's End. No?

Edit: she was there at night, when one of her shadows killed Cortnay Penrose. Prior that in ASOS, Davos IV, Melisandre was outside again at night. Maybe she didn't recognized Storm's End, because she never saw it during daylight? To Jon Snow she said that the towers in her vision were Eastwatch. But she herself thought, that what she saw in a vision, was different from what she saw at Eastwatch, and that often with visions it's like that - things looks diffrent than in reality. So could be that the castle, that she saw in her vision, was actually Storm's End, and she didn't recognized it, even though she has been there herself.

So those towers are Storm's End, and that's where Dany will meet fAegon. Probably.

There's no reasons for Dany to land in The Vale. By the time Dany will arrive to Westeros, Vale will be cut off from the rest of continent by winter.

Based on Melisandre's vision, Dany's vision, and Aeron's vision, Dany will arrive to wherever fAegon will be at that time, and it will be not in KL (Iron Throne will be occupied by Euron).

Also is it likely that Euron gave dragonbinding horn to his brother, and let him sail to Essos, and take dragons under his control? Based on Mance's horn, burned by Melisandre, probably Victarion's dragonbinding horn is also a fake. Euron gave that horn to Victarion, to get rid of him. While Victarion in Essos will be burned by dragons, (based on Moqorro's comment about his fate), Euron in Westeros will seize Iron Throne, (based on Aeron's vision).

[Lollygag]

On 4/12/2018 at 5:15 PM, Megorova said:

That's not exactly assumptions, more like logical deductions, based on known information, mostly on chapters from TWOW.

  Reveal hidden contents

Tyrion is closer to Meereen than Moqorro. And seems that in his next chapter, he will be already in Barristan's close circle. He will get there thru Barristan's "invitation" to Tattered Prince to change sides. And in his last chapter, Tatters announced that now they are Dany's people. Ironborn ships were also attacking Yunkaii, but they don't have access to Dany's people. Barristan doesn't know Ironborns, as he sort of knows Tatters and Ben Plumm, so Meereen people are not going to invite Ironborn to join them. Thus it's obvious that Tyrion will get to Meereen sooner than Moqorro.

Next about JonCon not being there, when Dany will arrive to Westeros. In his latest chapter in Winds, he was thinking how much time has he left, that he can stay with fAegon. And he was trying to keep his disease from spreading, by bathing his hand in wine. When fAegon came to him, he announced that next, they are going to attack Storm's End. It's obvious that people at Storm's End know about Shireen's greyscale. Maester Cressen is dead. He was family doctor of Baratheons. And it's not often, that people with greyscale, have their own personal maesters. Thus it's likely, that Cressen was making observations about Shireen's state, and after his death, his records were sent to Citadel. So it's likely that JonCon will go to Citadel, after he will hear from local Stormlanders about Shireen's greyscale, and that maester Cressen managed to stop her disease.

About Dany first meeting fAegon, this part is based on Melisandre's vision.

"Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky."

" “If it comes, that attack will be no more than a diversion. I saw towers by the sea, submerged beneath a black and bloody tide. That is where the heaviest blow will fall.”

“Eastwatch?”

Was it? Melisandre had seen Eastwatch-by-the-Sea with King Stannis. That was where His Grace left Queen Selyse and their daughter Shireen when he assembled his knights for the march to Castle Black. The towers in her fire had been different"

Black and bloody tide with skulls attacked towers by the sea. That's Golden Company under Targaryen black and red banners, attacking Storm's End.

There's not that many castles in Westeros, that are near sealine - from north to south - Eastwatch, Widow's Watch, Oldcastle, Gulltown, Dragonstone, King's Landing, Storm's End, Griffin's Roost (this is where Golden Company was in their latest chapter). There's no reason for Golden Company to attack first five, and it's too soon to attack King's Landing, also GC were intending to attack Storm's End, while carrying Targaryen banners.

And in Melisandre's vision, some time after GC seized Storm's End, Dany's dragons were also there. After Dany will hear that supposedly Aegon Targaryen is alive, then she will go to see him, and thus Melisandre saw those winged shadows flying amongst fire. Even though Dany will know about the Others and wildlings in Hardhome, it isn't necessary for her to personally go there, to save those people. So her fleet will sail north, while Dany with her dragons will fly to Storm's End, to slay a lie about mummer's dragon.

And it's unlikely that those sea towers were King's Landing. Because probably Melisandre knows how KL looks, and also based on Aeron's vision, KL will be under Euron's control, so Stormlands is where fAegon's progress will be stopped. Melisandre visited Dragonstone, but didn't went with Stannis to Storm's End. No?

Edit: she was there at night, when one of her shadows killed Cortnay Penrose. Prior that in ASOS, Davos IV, Melisandre was outside again at night. Maybe she didn't recognized Storm's End, because she never saw it during daylight? To Jon Snow she said that the towers in her vision were Eastwatch. But she herself thought, that what she saw in a vision, was different from what she saw at Eastwatch, and that often with visions it's like that - things looks diffrent than in reality. So could be that the castle, that she saw in her vision, was actually Storm's End, and she didn't recognized it, even though she has been there herself.

So those towers are Storm's End, and that's where Dany will meet fAegon. Probably.

There's no reasons for Dany to land in The Vale. By the time Dany will arrive to Westeros, Vale will be cut off from the rest of continent by winter.

Based on Melisandre's vision, Dany's vision, and Aeron's vision, Dany will arrive to wherever fAegon will be at that time, and it will be not in KL (Iron Throne will be occupied by Euron).

Also is it likely that Euron gave dragonbinding horn to his brother, and let him sail to Essos, and take dragons under his control? Based on Mance's horn, burned by Melisandre, probably Victarion's dragonbinding horn is also a fake. Euron gave that horn to Victarion, to get rid of him. While Victarion in Essos will be burned by dragons, (based on Moqorro's comment about his fate), Euron in Westeros will seize Iron Throne, (based on Aeron's vision).

Your use of deduction is incorrect. I'd look up deductive vs inductive reasoning.

I don't really get in the business of being certain as to what direction the plot will turn. Been surprised too many times before, so your confidence isn't convincing for me.

[Lollygag]

@OtherFromAnotherMother @Lost Melnibonean

I'm doing a bit of a re-read, and I agree that Q could mean Illyrio as the perfumed seneschal. Dany's instincts were spot-on in AGOT, but she's lost her center more than I recalled which is kinda sad.

Makes it especially interesting though that Dany is missing two imperfect perfumed senescals in Missendei and Daario right under her nose.

[Megorova]

2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I don't really get in the business of being certain as to what direction the plot will turn. Been surprised too many times before, so your confidence isn't convincing for me.

And what plot twist, from previous books, were totally unexpected for you?

In my opinion, things in ASOIAF don't happen out of the blue. GRRM always gave hints and clues to what will happen later. It's just that, until those things actually happened, it wasn't obvious, that those little things were clues.

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

@OtherFromAnotherMother @Lost Melnibonean

I'm doing a bit of a re-read, and I agree that Q could mean Illyrio as the perfumed seneschal. Dany's instincts were spot-on in AGOT, but she's lost her center more than I recalled which is kinda sad.

Makes it especially interesting though that Dany is missing two imperfect perfumed senescals in Missendei and Daario right under her nose.

I think Daenerys's suspicious thoughts in early Game were really hints for the reader to begin guessing at Illyrio's true motives. I have a lot of thoughts about the author's slow and continuing reveal of Illyrio's motives to the reader here, if you like. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Megorova said:

And what plot twist, from previous books, were totally unexpected for you?

In my opinion, things in ASOIAF don't happen out of the blue. GRRM always gave hints and clues to what will happen later. It's just that, until those things actually happened, it wasn't obvious, that those little things were clues.

Happening out of the blue =/= unexpected. There's a lot of facepalm/can't believe I didn't see that coming in ASOIAF. Red Wedding and Purple Wedding are great examples. The set up was all there, but it flies under the radar and is only really apparent in retrospect.

Plus when discussing something which is likely a full book away, there's a lot left to happen. That we've been told that Dany has a lot left to do in Slaver's Bay to the surprise of many including me leaves me even more cautious about hanging my hat on any prediction. The Stoneheart thread is also dealing with this sort of thing.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think Daenerys's suspicious thoughts in early Game were really hints for the reader to begin guessing at Illyrio's true motives. I have a lot of thoughts about the author's slow and continuing reveal of Illyrio's motives to the reader here, if you like. 

I've been playing in that thread and am very grateful for the work you've put into it as I'm interested in disproving that Illyrio is Gerion. I'll always see things from a character angle first, so I'm pinging off the change in Dany. The series is even broken down into POVs, not conventional chapters. I don't think that there's anything put into the series for the reader which isn't also relevant to the character, at least the real POVs/characters, maybe not so much the camera POVs used to fill in sections of plot.

[talvikorppi]

Thank you, everyone, for a really entertaining and partly insightful read!

So, the "perfumed seneschal" could be the ship Selaesori Qhoran, Illyrio, Varys, Moqorro, Tyrion, Jorah, even Penny; Daario, Reznak do Zigzag or some other zingzang grak Meereenese; several of the Tyrells, Jon Snow, Arya, Satin, even Sam; Quentyn, Marwyn, the Undying/warlocks, even Quaithe  in a double bluff. I probably forget somebody/something that's been proposed.

I think Lollygag somewhere above (sorry, I don't know how to make your name appear in red :-( ) made a very good point, that it's not this, that or the other. There is no "one true meaning" to any of the prophecies, dreams, visions. What is interesting, literary wise, is how characters themselves interpret them and how it influences their thoughts and actions. GRRM has warned readers, through several characters, to be wary of prophecies, visions and the like. A sword without a hilt, bite off your prick, Melisandre's fuzzy visions and her dodgy interpretations,, and so on and so forth.

So I don't think "the perfumed seneschal" refers to just one thing, especially not just one person. Quaithe's warning seems to have some truth (pale mare, the sickness; Quentyn, the unwelcome or too-late suitor; Tyrion, JonCon, (f)Aegon, Moqorro, Victarion/Euron, Raznag do Zingzong and other Meereenese, all trying to use her for their own ends)...

The ship, Selaesori Qhoran, still afloat during Quaithe's cryptic words, could be seen as bringing Westerosi politics to Dany, before she has had time to learn enough about it and form a balanced picture, so dangerous to form snap decisions and allegiances on imperfect information. So, beware!

Whatever turns out to be "the truth" after the next book is published, I'm sure there'll be enough leeway to let many fan theories and our discussions to continue. :-)

[Asshai Backward]

I concur with other(s) who feel the perfumed seneschal isn't a specific individual, but rather a concept--where there is a would-be suitor to the throne, there is a seneschal nearby wearing perfume to cover the stench of their corruption.

However, I'd been thinking this partly because the other warnings did end up referring to specific characters.  But the pale mare isn't a character--it's the plague...or is it?

And what is the deal with "qhoran" partly meaning the "hand" and Quorin Half-hand?  Should we call him Hand Halfhand?

[Corvo the Crow]

3 hours ago, Asshai Backward said:

I concur with other(s) who feel the perfumed seneschal isn't a specific individual, but rather a concept--where there is a would-be suitor to the throne, there is a seneschal nearby wearing perfume to cover the stench of their corruption.

However, I'd been thinking this partly because the other warnings did end up referring to specific characters.  But the pale mare isn't a character--it's the plague...or is it?

And what is the deal with "qhoran" partly meaning the "hand" and Quorin Half-hand?  Should we call him Hand Halfhand?

There's also Khorane Sathmantes, a Lyseni Captain from Saan's fleet

[Euron Lannister]

I think the PS is either Varys or Illyrio.

the way quaithe formulated the warning, implies that the PS is on a different level than the other ones, so he is likely a much bigger threat.

Varys and Illyrio are big schemers and pull much more strings than any of the other implied people and they are perfumed.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, Euron Lannister said:

the way quaithe formulated the warning, implies that the PS is on a different level than the other ones, so he is likely a much bigger threat.

This could be. 

Or... the others are (at the time of Quaithe's warning) trying to get to Dany/Dany's dragons. The Perfumed Seneschal is not?

Or... the others are people whom Dany has not met yet. Maybe the Perfumed Seneschal is someone she already knows? 

Or... some sort of combination.

[Back door hodor]

I've always thought it was the boat, especially when aemons deathbed ramblings to Sam about the dangers of mistranslation are considered, it seems to fit better than a person in my opinion.

Than again, the boat sinks, And will never make it to Mereen, so how could Dani beware of its inhabitants if she never knew they were on said boat.

Hmmm........

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

5 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

I've always thought it was the boat, especially when aemons deathbed ramblings to Sam about the dangers of mistranslation are considered, it seems to fit better than a person in my opinion.

Than again, the boat sinks, And will never make it to Mereen, so how could Dani beware of its inhabitants if she never knew they were on said boat.

Hmmm........

I think we can safely say the boat itself is not a threat to Dany.

People argue that the members of the boat are what Quaithe is warning about. But she already lists members of the boat (lion and dark flame), so that doesn't make a lot of sense either.