Soldier Pines and Sentinels

[Bitterblooms]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:58 AM, zandru said:

He's talking about a trunk that's eight feet (2.4 m) wide, not the tree's crown. That's just its diameter, not a circumference. I've never seen a cottonwood any near that size, nor a Ponderosa pine. I haven't yet been fortunate enough to see the California redwoods, but they would be equivalent, I suspect.

Agreed; I was just about to note the same. I've never seen a tree the trunk of which being 8 feet in diameter, except in pictures. Sounds sufficiently impressive to me!

[Springwatch]

On 10/04/2018 at 10:28 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The passages above, though, foreshadow that something akin to the ents and huorns of Tolkein's Middle-earth will play a role. Maybe that's why soldier pines and sentinels are mentioned 54 times. 

I'm torn. I was completely won over by Tolkein's trees, and I see how GRRM's trees are inspired from them, but I think GRRM goes his own way - he takes the smallest idea, no more.

I think trees literally show us people, like this when Jaime sees his own doppelgänger, dead in the river:

Quote

... one of the floating logs they passed turned out to be a dead man, bloodless and swollen. His cloak was tangled in the roots of a fallen tree, its color unmistakeably Lannister crimson. He wondered if the corpse had been someone he knew.

ASOS - JAIME I

And trees are also an insight into the nature of the Others (or the gods of winter, or something). We get a very weird description of Arya practise-fighting within a tree, and there are other characters who feel they are fighting trees (some mentioned here already). And there are also I think, multiple hanging trees - trees with dead people tied to their branches. So probably these monstrous trees represent monstrous enemies, devouring and entrapping souls to power their blood magic.

[Lost Melnibonean]

After posting this, it occurred to me that the Horn of Joramun might wake the trees? And maybe that's the magic of the children that the hero needs to seek? Perhaps Sam can get that thing back to Winterfell? On the back of a dragon?  But maybe "weirwood paste," lots and lots of "weirwood paste," will be required to make it work right? 

[Obscured by Klowds]

The personification of the trees in ASOIAF is one of GRRM's most effective lures for my attention.  Starts out as just good writing in the prologue of GOT, but by the time Sansa climbed up to the Eyrie I was hooked.  Over the course of the series the repitition of 'grey-green sentinels' accumulates and demands attention like a child or a chorus.  Love this post. 

I'm into bonsai, so I was kinda curious about sentinel trees as a species of pine or whatever, but it's not a thing outside of Planetos.  Probably a sign that you need to spend less time reading ASOIAF when you start asking people at the nursery for trees that don't exist.  However, there is a tree named the 'Sentinel' in Sequoia Nat Park.

If the fungus/mycelium below GRRM's trees have shared consciousness with greenseers or the singers, I'd expect it would never be explicitly stated, but woven everywhere in the imagery and symbolism.  Hidden from the casual observer. 

Do we have any thoughts on GRRM's sentinels as things that act as an indicator of the presence of disease?  Or the sap as a symbol of fertility?

[The Sleeper]

Read "A Song for Lya". The idea for the function of the weirwoods seems to be transposed directly from that story. Well there are differences but so far they appear minor and I don't want to spoil the story. 

With the exception of the weirwoods, which can and do animate, I am inclined to think that the rest of tree description are similis. 

As for the notion that this whole affair is the design of the Children of the Forest for wiping out mankind, I think it has two problems. For one it is a bit like burning your house down to chase away a burglar and the second is that the Winter itself is tha basic issue with the Others being the icing on the cake. The Winter has the potential to be an extinction level event without the Others moving their little fingers. 

The caveat is that the Others may be responsible for the Winter, but it that case the wights seem a bit redundant. Unless it is not about conquest but more about cleaning house. 

My view is that some magical mishap in the Dawn Age threw the seasons out of whack and the Others are opportunists who exploit the extra long winters to take control of lands newly available to them. Or the mishap caused the planet to fall to a never ending winter and whatever they did at the first war for the dawn was a temporary fix (hence the irregular seasons) that was doomed to fail eventually. 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Read "A Song for Lya". The idea for the function of the weirwoods seems to be transposed directly from that story. Well there are differences but so far they appear minor and I don't want to spoil the story. 

There are HUGE differences between the Weirwoods and what happens in ASFL. Now, I have seen people mention this before, but it never made full sense to me. GRRM never (rarely) does a one-to-one revival, more of a split when he has the literary room to do so. It seems to me that what we see in ASFL is being repurposed in ASOIAF, but not in the Weirwoods (at least, not fully). That said, is there an essay or anything you can link me to so I can see more fully what others propose? I am genuinely interested. 

Ok, back on topic  

 

[The Sleeper]

44 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

There are HUGE differences between the Weirwoods and what happens in ASFL. Now, I have seen people mention this before, but it never made full sense to me. GRRM never (rarely) does a one-to-one revival, more of a split when he has the literary room to do so. It seems to me that what we see in ASFL is being repurposed in ASOIAF, but not in the Weirwoods (at least, not fully). That said, is there an essay or anything you can link me to so I can see more fully what others propose? I am genuinely interested. 

Ok, back on topic  

 

Well, a tree and an amoeba like parasite that grows on the brains of its hosts and a tree don't look much alike and the stories in general are nothing alike, but as far as I'm concerned there is more than enough evidence that the trees like the parasite absorb consciousness along with or dead tissue to form hive minds. Sorry, I'm not aware of any essay but I have seen a lot of ideas from his previous work being used in ASoIaF. Anyone who had read the Skin Trade or a short story featuring a character called Grey Alys would have seen the Boltons coming a mile away

 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Well, a tree and an amoeba like parasite that grows on the brains of its hosts and a tree don't look much alike and the stories in general are nothing alike, but as far as I'm concerned there is more than enough evidence that the trees like the parasite absorb consciousness along with or dead tissue to form hive minds. Sorry, I'm not aware of any essay but I have seen a lot of ideas from his previous work being used in ASoIaF. Anyone who had read the Skin Trade or a short story featuring a character called Grey Alys would have seen the Boltons coming a mile away

 

Thank you. No worries if there is not an essay. I shall take myself to google to check for more info later. 

Spoiler

No doubt about the Bolton’s from the Skin Trade, among many other comparisons. 

Grey Alys... I see that situation a bit differently. Much more hrakkar than Bolton. I recently reread that story and was like , ya know? Even there there are prototypes to otherASOIAF characters and themes. I love GRRM’s older works. Good chat 

 

[The Sleeper]

32 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Thank you. No worries if there is not an essay. I shall take myself to google to check for more info later. 

  Hide contents

No doubt about the Bolton’s from the Skin Trade, among many other comparisons. 

Grey Alys... I see that situation a bit differently. Much more hrakkar than Bolton. I recently reread that story and was like , ya know? Even there there are prototypes to otherASOIAF characters and themes. I love GRRM’s older works. Good chat 

 

The hrakkar could be a bit like the weirwoods. Maybe there is also a relationship between them and the parasite from the Song for Lya. After all they occupy the same universe only one is an introvert and the others belligerent.

As for Gray Alys apart from the fact that wolves ought to stay away from/ skinners in a Martin story, I think Sansa, Arya and the faceless men might find their roots there.

Another huge reference is in "The Way of Cross and Dragon" where you see how the Targaryens begun

Martin has recycled a lot of ideas. Many of them were in an entirely different context and others were not developed in any extent previously. 

 

[Rufus Snow]

I'm surprised that no-one has brought this up before, but to me the imagery of 'warrior trees' points to something much older than Tolkien. Go back a few more centuries in British literature and you will find the work of Taliesin - and this context literally screams out for 'Cad Goddeu' or in the English translation, 'The Battle of the Trees'.

This is an Old Welsh poem, nearly 250 lines long. There's a translation here

Some of Taliesin's mythical transformations are interesting:

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I have been a course, I have been an eagle.
I have been a coracle in the seas:
I have been compliant in the banquet.
I have been a drop in a shower;
I have been a sword in the grasp of the hand
I have been a shield in battle.
I have been a string in a harp,
Disguised for nine years.
in water, in foam.

Remind you of anything?

Quote

I have been in Caer Vevenir⁵
Thither hastened grass and trees
Minstrels were singing
Warrior-bands were wondering
At the exaltation of the Brython,
That Gwydyon⁶ affected.
There was a calling on the Creator,
Upon Christ for causes,
Until when the Eternal
Should deliver those whom he had made.
The Lord answered them, 
Through language and elements:
Take the forms of time prinncipal trees,
Arranging yourselves in battle array,
And restraining the public.
Inexperienced in battle hand to hand.
When the trees were enchanted,
In the expectation of not being trees,
The trees uttered their voices
From strings of harmony,
The disputes ceased.

(Typical of much of the Matter of Britain, written versions of the stories and poems were made by monks, so some Christian glosses find their way into the texts which are clearly pagan in origin)

Quote

The alder trees, the head of the line,
Formed the van.
The willows and quicken trees
Came late to the army.
Plum-trees, that are scarce, 
Unlonged for of men
The elaborate medlar-trees
Tue objects of contention.
The prickly rose-bushes,
Against a host, of giants,
The raspberry brake did
What is better failed
For the security of life.
Privet and woodbine
And ivy on its front,
Like furze to the combat
The cherry-tree was provoked.
The birch, notwithstanding his high mind,
Was late before he was arrayed.
Not because of his cowardice,
But on account of his greatness.
The laburnuin held in mind,
That your wild nature was foreign.
Pine-trees in the porch,
The chair of disputation,
By me greatly exalted,
In the presence of kings
The elm with his retinue,
Did not go aside a foot
He would fight with the centre,
And the flanks, and the rear.

And just a final thought: in one tradition concerning the Battle of the Trees, one of the belligerants was said to be Bran the Blessed in alliance with Arawn, Lord of the Underworld