Angel Eyes

Why didn’t Jon Arryn think of sending Sweetrobin to the North?

38 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I agree that Stannis in the books isn't a good, affectionate father to Shireen, but he's still far from being a monster like Randyll Tarly and while Stannis is one of my least favourite side-characters in the story, and I do find pretty much everything about him repulsive, I can't picture him actively humiliating or abusing Robin, like Randyll did with Sam. 
On the other hand, part of the reason for that is that I don't think Stannis could be bothered to interact much with his ward, he'd shove him off to Selyse and some tutor and call it a day while he goes back to thinking about how he "deserves" and how every single person in Westeros actively works to sleight him 24/7. They'd probably hardly ever meet, despite both living in Dragonstone.

You nailed Stannins perfectly!

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On ‎4‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 0:27 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So Jon Arryn was thinking of where to send Sweetrobin for fostering and this is why he got poisoned. Why didn’t he e-raven Ned and ask him to foster Sweetrobin?

My  guess would be , to give Stannis the respect he craves, and protection for Robin if the Lannisters  and their allies try some rough stuff when they depose Tywin , and through SweetRobin making Stannis  Warden of the Vale if Jon dies .

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This actually started to make me wonder, since Robin would be left to Selyse...what would Mell make of the little Lord of the Vale? Epileptics have been variously considered possessed by the evil sprits or touched by the gods in real life religions, but I don't think we know what the Lord of Light thinks of them. 
I mean the most likely answer is that she would have tried to convert him with false promises that the Lord of Light could cure him, but it would be interesting to see whether she'd might employ her own talents to lessen his afflictions or might have used his blood for some spell.

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

On the other hand, part of the reason for that is that I don't think Stannis could be bothered to interact much with his ward, he'd shove him off to Selyse and some tutor and call it a day

Shirking duty?

A fosterer's duty is to teach the ward.

And let us remember the ages!

Sweet Baboo is is what - eight?

Not much that Stannis can teach him. When the children reach 10 or 12 Stannis will be giving lessons on ruling to both Sweetpea and Shireen.

IMO.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis never shows affection to Shireen in the books. That is the show.

But I didn't call him "affectionate", did I? 

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

But I didn't call him "affectionate", did I? 

Yeah, but what evidence do we have that he has any relationship with his daughter at all? He never interacts with her.

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In regards to the OP, sometimes the simplest answer is also the right answer. Ned was already fostering Theon Greyjoy. Ned's home isn't an orphanage, and he already had four sons of his own. 

 

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On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 7:26 PM, Orphalesion said:

This actually started to make me wonder, since Robin would be left to Selyse...what would Mell make of the little Lord of the Vale? Epileptics have been variously considered possessed by the evil sprits or touched by the gods in real life religions, but I don't think we know what the Lord of Light thinks of them. 
I mean the most likely answer is that she would have tried to convert him with false promises that the Lord of Light could cure him, but it would be interesting to see whether she'd might employ her own talents to lessen his afflictions or might have used his blood for some spell.

Either that, or whatever poison Littlefinger has been getting into Sweetrobin will cease on Dragonstone and he will make a miraculous recovery -- all due to the cleansing power of fire, of course.

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Bobby B wanted to foster him with Tywin. Why so? And not his friend Ned? Ned also proposes himself. And Robert calls it "A generous offer". IMO Robert doesn't see the job as a "gift" and he doesn't want to bother his friend with a boy who is likely to die on his charge. Apparently Cersei or Tywin also gave some "offer" difficult to refuse "Lord Tywin has already given his consent. Fostering the boy elsewhere would be a grievous affront to him".

In fact, IMO, Robert simply doesn't care who has the boy. First to ask got it.

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2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Bobby B wanted to foster him with Tywin. Why so? And not his friend Ned? Ned also proposes himself. And Robert calls it "A generous offer". IMO Robert doesn't see the job as a "gift" and he doesn't want to bother his friend with a boy who is likely to die on his charge. Apparently Cersei or Tywin also gave some "offer" difficult to refuse "Lord Tywin has already given his consent. Fostering the boy elsewhere would be a grievous affront to him".

In fact, IMO, Robert simply doesn't care who has the boy. First to ask got it.

Well said.

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On 4/14/2018 at 1:32 AM, Orphalesion said:

well, there was Old Nan...

LOL!!! :eek: Lysa's crazy jealous self probably would have lost it because of the distance. And I agree with the comments on needing to cement a relationship. Also, he hadn't seen Ned in years if I remember correctly.

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On 4/14/2018 at 2:49 AM, TMIFairy said:

3 - he was doing the groundwork for a Robert-Shireen match;

I've always thought this. And I think it's a really good idea.

Stannis whilst still in his prime seems unlikely to sire a male heir, he barely spends time with his wife. Jon Arryn would know this. So if Sweetrobin married Shireen he'd also be Lord-Protector of Dragonstone when Stannis dies. The Vale has plenty of troops and good defences, but it hasn't really had a major fleet since the Invasion. The Lord of the Vale (and his descendants) having Dragonstone and the Narrow Sea lords as a forward base of Naval operations would be pretty useful. That combined with a legitimate line to the throne in case they ever wanted to put forward a claim.

It's not like JA is planning to overthrow Robert or anything. Just he of all people would know that things can change suddenly and dynasties and inheritance can go in different ways than anticipated. Firming up one's own house is always a good idea.

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On 4/15/2018 at 3:06 AM, TMIFairy said:

Shirking duty?

A fosterer's duty is to teach the ward.

And let us remember the ages!

Sweet Baboo is is what - eight?

Not much that Stannis can teach him. When the children reach 10 or 12 Stannis will be giving lessons on ruling to both Sweetpea and Shireen.

IMO.

Eh, Stannis always struck me as a kind of hypocrite, he'll be very loud about how he will do his duty and how displeased he is a bout it, and then do the bare minimum and shove the boy off to a tutor (which, tbf, is how those things were done, really)

so...Stannis giving lessons on ruling? Oh man...
"Remember children, whenever someone, even someone you haven't met before, does something that directly, or indirectly, displeases you; they did it on purpose! For the sole reason of insulting/annoying/making fun of you! Your own faults, repulsive character or simple chance has nothing to do with the matter! It's always for the sole person of harming you...or rather to harm me, by harming you.
And when that happens don't speak up or defend yoruself...that's what they want...rather nurse your inner bitterness into a tangle of misery and passive-aggressiveness...
Now let us continue to memorize the list of people who have purposefully slighted me this week...and you better get it right, because there are many new names since yesterday!"

 

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

"Remember children, whenever someone, even someone you haven't met before, does something that directly, or indirectly, displeases you; they did it on purpose!

I was amused - thank you!

As to the Robert/Shireen match - the way I understand Westeros works (no accumulation of lands) Dragonstone would go to their 2nd son (child), not be united with the Vale.

So Robert's children would have more stuff to inherit (Arryn's - Grow Stronger!)

This also projects BLAST - the current ruling block of Westeros - into the future. For all we know the Joff/Sansa match could had been Jon's idea too.

I also thought about Jon A. doing a favour to Stannis - who'd else offer to marry the marred girl? - but as she is a heiress (am I correct in assuming that Dragonstone was given to Stannis as hereditary fief? Not an annuity?) there would be no lack of 2nd/3rd lords' sons thrown at Stannis with offers of marriage and assurances of fertility.

 

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11 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

I also thought about Jon A. doing a favour to Stannis - who'd else offer to marry the marred girl? - but as she is a heiress (am I correct in assuming that Dragonstone was given to Stannis as hereditary fief? Not an annuity?) there would be no lack of 2nd/3rd lords' sons thrown at Stannis with offers of marriage and assurances of fertility.

Good point. With Targaryens, if I'm correct, Dragonstone was the seat of the King's heir. If Robert intended the same, it would go to Joffrey when he would be of age. And maybe later to Tommen or Joffrey's children. I believe it would be why Stannis wanted Storm's End.

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12 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

This also projects BLAST - the current ruling block of Westeros - into the future. For all we know the Joff/Sansa match could had been Jon's idea too.

 

 

If it was Jon's idea, he was a fool.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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15 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

As to the Robert/Shireen match - the way I understand Westeros works (no accumulation of lands) Dragonstone would go to their 2nd son (child), not be united with the Vale.

That's a strongly adhered to custom but not a hard law. GRRM said Robert could have been King, Lord of Storm's End and Dragonstone simultaneously. Arianne says if Myrcella was Queen, Tommen would still be Lord of Casterly Rock and Storm's End. Lord Butterwall had several castles before the first Blackfyre Rebellion.

So someone could be Lord of the Vale and Lord of Dragonstone. They wouldn't be merged. Just they would just be wearing two hats granting them significant power. It's pretty straightforward in allegiance though given both swear to the King. But the King might strongly encourage them to split it between sons to avoid a power block. But for a generation or two the person who held both would be very powerful. After the split there would still be useful familial ties.

But I have the feeling had Robert's reign actually gone longer without any succession crisis it would have heralded a move to a system similar to what we had, where noble houses of nations were greatly intertwined and people often had confusing distributions of lands and allegiances.

Edited by GallowsKnight

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For those saying Stannis doesn't care for Shireen

Quote

Sire, Lord Florent meant no treason."

"Do smugglers have another name for it? I made him Hand, and he would have sold my rights for a bowl of pease porridge. He would even have given them Shireen. Mine only child, he would have wed to a bastard born of incest."

 

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