redriver

Lady Stoneheart-looking ahead.

43 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

GRRM has revealed that he regrets the show ditched this character and that he is writing her extensively in the Winds of Winter.

So how do you think this will play out?

What happens to Jaime and Brienne if they ever get there?

Can she move beyond hanging just Freys?

Is this good news or bad?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by redriver

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She's an incarnation of the Crone - maybe one of a 'magnificent seven' - so, yes, she's got to have a story. It's really hard to imagine the mechanics of it though - she can't really talk, probably can't really think, yet the Crone's role is to lead and show wisdom. Puzzling.

There are some quotes from the 'catspaw' chapter of AGOT which are likely to foreshadow LSH's state of mind:

  • Catelyn was shaking. It was the grief, the howling of the direwolves. Night after night, the howling and the cold wind and the grey empty castle, on and on they went, never changing, and her boy lying there broken.... "Make them stop!" she cried. "I can't stand it, make them stop, make them stop, kill them all if you must, just make them stop!"

and afterwards:

  • It all seemed like a nightmare to her now, everything since Bran's fall, a terrible dream of blood and grief....

and she feels 'light-headed' - if that's a pun, her mind is out of the darkness, and in the light again. Maybe even a source of illumination, as a good Crone should be.

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 I wonder if he's thinking of a reunion of sorts with one or all of the remaining Starks?

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23 minutes ago, redriver said:

Anywhere on the internet would do,it's all over it.

http://time.com/4791258/game-of-thrones-george-r-r-martin-interview/

Thank you.

 

There is a theory that Lady Stoneheart will play the role of Nissa Nissa when she is stabbed by Oathkeeper by Brienne or Jaime. The sword was plunged into water and became Ice, later it was tempered by a lion (Tywin Lannister made Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail with Ice), then by sacrificing LS it will become Lightbringer.

There is another theory that she will resurrect Jon Snow although I don't know how that's gonna happen. She's too far away and she never cared for Jon.

 

Honestly, I don't know what her story will be. There are so many ways that her story can go.

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17 minutes ago, redriver said:

 I wonder if he's thinking of a reunion of sorts with one or all of the remaining Starks?

Yeah, the pack reunites. It looked like the pack was going to be very, very small, but if dead people can be included, that solves the problem.

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9 hours ago, Springwatch said:

She's an incarnation of the Crone - maybe one of a 'magnificent seven' - so, yes, she's got to have a story. It's really hard to imagine the mechanics of it though - she can't really talk, probably can't really think, yet the Crone's role is to lead and show wisdom. Puzzling.

There are some quotes from the 'catspaw' chapter of AGOT which are likely to foreshadow LSH's state of mind:

  • Catelyn was shaking. It was the grief, the howling of the direwolves. Night after night, the howling and the cold wind and the grey empty castle, on and on they went, never changing, and her boy lying there broken.... "Make them stop!" she cried. "I can't stand it, make them stop, make them stop, kill them all if you must, just make them stop!"

and afterwards:

  • It all seemed like a nightmare to her now, everything since Bran's fall, a terrible dream of blood and grief....

and she feels 'light-headed' - if that's a pun, her mind is out of the darkness, and in the light again. Maybe even a source of illumination, as a good Crone should be.

The Silence of the Direwolves

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12 hours ago, redriver said:

GRRM has revealed that he regrets the show ditched this character and that he is writing her extensively in the Winds of Winter.

So how do you think this will play out?

What happens to Jaime and Brienne if they ever get there?

Can she move beyond hanging just Freys?

Is this good news or bad?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It may not be the plot the Stark fans among the readers are hoping for.  Stoneheart is corrupted and a sad ending for Catelyn Stark.  I am not a hater of Catelyn but her actions placed her on the path to becoming Stoneheart.  She made a lot of bad decisions that got people on her side killed.  From arresting Tyrion to releasing Jaime.  Top it off with the murder of Aegon Frey, an innocent bystander to the red wedding.  Arya is on the same path.  Their arcs could turn out the cautionary tale against revenge that we are expecting.  I am predicting that Stoneheart and Arya are headed for sad, tragic endings.  The show likely left out Stoneheart because it would result in a vocal negative reaction from the Stark fans among the show watchers.  They even wrote out Arya's murder of the insurance agent.  

Edited by Agent Orange

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10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

She's an incarnation of the Crone

The Crone??  I would have assumed the Stranger. Since when does the Crone go around dealing death? The Crone dispenses wisdom.

6 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

Top it off with the murder of Aegon Frey, an innocent bystander

Is there no end of love for the Frey with the dragon's name, a white-haired doddering simpleton who isn't even valued by his own family? I'm saving my sympathy for the 10,000+ Stark bannermen who were slaughtered as they lined up for wine to celebrate with the Freys. I don't count "Aegon" as more significant, or even equal, to all of them.

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Catelyn’s death felt organic to me, but I was surprised by it because she and Jon still feel unresolved to me. Catelyn was always ill at ease with her feelings over Jon: she very much hated all he symbolized and the potential future threat to her kids but she also felt that her feelings were unjust and was guilty over them to a certain extent. Regardless of who Jon’s mother is, Catelyn is still the only mother he’ll ever know. I didn’t expect any kumbaya moment between them, but I expected to see a certain acknowledgment and maybe at least a grudging tolerance between them.

I don’t really expect this to happen but it would be very interesting to me. Stoneheart acts toward King Jon much as her role was to Robb. I can see revengy Stoneheart and angry, betrayed Jon being on the same page on some things. Stoneheart would support Jon as a means to her own kids’ advancement, perhaps understanding that Jon was the best means to securing her own kids’ position which I imagine would be difficult for her. Jon would be in the position of needing her politically, wanting her approval as his mother at last, and still very much not trusting her. Regardless, all of the Stark kids are ill-equipped to deal with how serious their situations really are and I expect Stoneheart to fill this role like she did with Robb. It's where Catelyn/Stoneheart really excelled though like all, she made significant mistakes nonetheless.

AGOT Tyrion IV


Even now, long days later, the memory filled him with a bitter rage. All his life Tyrion had prided himself on his cunning, the only gift the gods had seen fit to give him, and yet this seven-times-damned she-wolf Catelyn Stark had outwitted him at every turn. The knowledge was more galling than the bare fact of his abduction.

 

I look forward to seeing just how complex Stoneheart’s feelings of revenge are. Can Stoneheart give up biases on a small scale (Jon) in turn for revenge on a larger scale (Lannisters, etc)? Such is the same situation with Jaime and Brienne. If Stoneheart can give up the perceived betrayal of Brienne and Jaime, she opens the door to be able to use them for much bigger revengy things. If Jon is the only clear path back to Winterfell (Sansa is married to Tyrion), will she go that route despite her biases? With her biological kids, will she be able to give up revenge if it means saving her kids, or is she past that point?

I do wonder about her take on the Others being what she is, too.

And for me, the only suitable end for Littlefinger would come at the hands of Stoneheart, where it all started.

 

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This foreshadowed Lady Stoneheart...

Quote

Alyssa Arryn had seen her husband, her brothers, and all her children slain, and yet in life she had never shed a tear. So in death, the gods had decreed that she would know no rest until her weeping watered the black earth of the Vale, where the men she had loved were buried. Alyssa had been dead six thousand years now, and still no drop of the torrent had ever reached the valley floor far below. Catelyn wondered how large a waterfall her own tears would make when she died.

What foreshadowing clues do we have for what happens next for Lady Stoneheart? I think Jaime is the Valonqar, but I wonder about Brienne. Will she return to Catelyn's service? Will she continue her quest to find Catelyn's girls? 

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14 hours ago, redriver said:

GRRM has revealed that he regrets the show ditched this character and that he is writing her extensively in the Winds of Winter.So how do you think this will play out?
What happens to Jaime and Brienne if they ever get there?
Can she move beyond hanging just Freys?
Is this good news or bad?

Stoneheart does not look forward. Stoneheart is forever stuck in the past at the moment of her death. Her only reason for existence is vengeance 

 

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Revenge is rarely about just revenge. Very often, it's about using anger and vengeance to avoid dealing with feelings one doesn't feel one can face. Catelyn was despondent until the plot against Bran. As soon as Cat had someone to hate (Bran's would-be killer), then she was able to function again and squash down her grief about Bran. As soon as Catelyn gave up revenge (releasing Jaime), her grief and despondency returned.

She isn't actually about revenge, she's about revenge as a poor bandaid for dealing with her grief over her lost family. I disagree that she's just a vengeance machine.

Catelyn's last thought wasn't revenge. It was the loss of her family. Stoneheart is doing what Catelyn did before: using revenge to make the pain stop.

ASOS Catelyn VII

It hurts so much, she thought. Our children, Ned, all our sweet babes. Rickon, Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb . . . Robb . . . please, Ned, please, make it stop, make it stop hurting . . . The white tears and the red ones ran together until her face was torn and tattered, the face that Ned had loved. Catelyn Stark raised her hands and watched the blood run down her long fingers, over her wrists, beneath the sleeves of her gown. Slow red worms crawled along her arms and under her clothes. It tickles. That made her laugh until she screamed. "Mad," someone said, "she's lost her wits," and someone else said, "Make an end," and a hand grabbed her scalp just as she'd done with Jinglebell, and she thought, No, don't, don't cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Then the steel was at her throat, and its bite was red and cold.

 

Edited by Lollygag

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I’m going to guess that she sets Brienne and Jaime to rescuing Sansa, and that she gives her life resurrecting Arya. Just for drama’s sake.

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3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Stoneheart does not look forward. Stoneheart is forever stuck in the past at the moment of her death. Her only reason for existence is vengeance 

 

Seems that way to me too.The resurrected do appear to be stuck in a moment, as Martin portrays them.

If she's going to make several appearances in the forthcoming book,she needs POV's.It was Brienne last time-it could be her or Jaime next time.But if Jaime does come face to face with her and the BWB,I can't see how he gets out of it alive.It would take some serious blustering on his part-he has improved in that department admittedly,but can he talk his way out of this?

Maybe.More likely he winkles the truth of their destination out of Brienne and bails.

However it plays out it looks like this is not an end point for anyone,but you never know.

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10 hours ago, redriver said:

But if Jaime does come face to face with her and the BWB,I can't see how he gets out of it alive.It would take some serious blustering on his part-he has improved in that department admittedly,but can he talk his way out of this?

A reminder of his oath:

Swear that you will never again take up arms against Stark nor Tully. Swear that you will compel your brother to honor his pledge to return my daughters safe and unharmed. 

No bloodshed at the Riverlands and released Tyrion from prison. Even went the extra mile supplying and sending Brienne on her search.

If LSH is in fact a crazed zombie of vengeance then sure she'll kill him, but if she has even a smidge of rational thought left she won't.

Also be interesting to see how the pretty strong moral code Brotherhood members react to an order to kill an "innocent" man....although trying to kill Bri and Pod may be proof that they have gone off the deep end.

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2 hours ago, ToysoldierXIII said:

A reminder of his oath:

Swear that you will never again take up arms against Stark nor Tully. Swear that you will compel your brother to honor his pledge to return my daughters safe and unharmed. 

No bloodshed at the Riverlands and released Tyrion from prison. Even went the extra mile supplying and sending Brienne on her search.

If LSH is in fact a crazed zombie of vengeance then sure she'll kill him, but if she has even a smidge of rational thought left she won't.

Also be interesting to see how the pretty strong moral code Brotherhood members react to an order to kill an "innocent" man....although trying to kill Bri and Pod may be proof that they have gone off the deep end.

Except she heard "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." in RW. She will very much likely believe that Jaime had a hand in it. How will he prove otherwise?

 

I think the only way Jaime can come out of this alive is to kill her or not meet her at all.

 

BwB is already changed when they began executing Freys without trial.

Edited by shameeka
spelling

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