Did Syrax kill herself?

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenyra seems to understand why her son, Prince Joffrey, had to die after he tried to ride Syrax. A dragon only accepts one rider, and can only be ridden by that rider while said rider is still alive.

After Syrax shakes off Joffrey and he falls to his death, the she-dragon acts rather strangely. She doesn't return to the Red Keep, nor does she attack the people at the Dragonpit from the air. She lands there, does some stuff, and is then apparently killed by the mad dragonslayers there.

This was always a very odd development.

But there is a potential explanation for this:

We know there might be a deep emotional link between dragons and their riders - they mimic their riders emotions (Dany's dragons mimic her feelings of distaste for Grazdan mo Eraz; Vhagar and Caraxes get along splendidly while they are ridden by Laena and Daemon only to kill each other later on; Dreamfyre feels Queen Helaena's death and grieves for her; Sunfyre searches out Aegon II on Dragonstone - or may have done so).

What kind of emotion would have Syrax felt from her rider after she had killed Rhaenyra's son? A burning hatred of the creature who had taken another son from him? The deep grief the mother felt for her son? Both those emotions mingled together?

It may have been more than enough to confuse Syrax. And if Rhaenyra had had the very strong thoughts - after finally realizing that the rabble actually was killing the dragons in the Dragonpit - that they should kill the beast who killed her son, too, that may explain why Syrax did what she did.

Any thoughts on that?

[Seams]

I assume the dragon stories are symbolic, hinting at events we might see in the future or echoing stories from the past.

Since a character named Joffrey dies in this story, would it fit to imagine that Syrax represents the queen we know of as Cersei? Does Cersei do the same thing after the death of her oldest son, flying into the midst of the fighting instead of staying safe by staying above the fray? Cersei certainly sees herself as a player in the Game of Thrones, so I would say that she is similar to Syrax, going toward the fight instead of withdrawing. But I don't think she does so as a suicidal act of grief for the death of Joffrey.

But that's just one possible read of the death of Syrax.

The Dragonpit as a whole is an important symbol, I think, and deserves some analysis. How could the Targaryens leave it vacant and ruined for so long? The three hills of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys dominate the city of King's Landing. One is occupied by the Red Keep, another by Baelor's Sept and the third is just abandoned and wrecked for decades?

[Mat92]

On 14/04/2018 at 8:41 PM, Seams said:

The Dragonpit as a whole is an important symbol, I think, and deserves some analysis. How could the Targaryens leave it vacant and ruined for so long? The three hills of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys dominate the city of King's Landing. One is occupied by the Red Keep, another by Baelor's Sept and the third is just abandoned and wrecked for decades?

Interesting idea. Symbolic as in, the Red Keep (politics) and Baelor's Sept (religion) were two pillars of the Targ regime that were focused on and built up, whereas the Dragon Pit (dragons) was taken for granted? Or perhaps it's simply a metaphor for the decline of the Targ regime.

I guess realistically it's hard to renovate when you've got a couple fire-breathing dragons flying about too.

[Seams]

12 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

Interesting idea. Symbolic as in, the Red Keep (politics) and Baelor's Sept (religion) were two pillars of the Targ regime that were focused on and built up, whereas the Dragon Pit (dragons) was taken for granted? Or perhaps it's simply a metaphor for the decline of the Targ regime.

I guess realistically it's hard to renovate when you've got a couple fire-breathing dragons flying about too.

I don't know that it's taken for granted, I just wonder why a valuable piece of real estate is left abandoned. After the storming of the dragon pit and the death of the last dragons, were the Targaryens leaving the pit as a ruin to show that they had renounced dragons? We know that they were actually trying to hatch new dragons. Since they were trying to hatch new dragons, why didn't they clean up the burned ruin and rebuild it? Get it ready for new occupants and show the general population that the Targaryens did not intend to surrender their dragon weapons.

The details of the storming of the dragon pit may hold some answers: who were the people who entered the pit in order to kill the dragons (they had to know this was a suicide mission), which Valyrian steel swords were lost in the confusion (Lamentation, the Royce family sword, for sure. Others?) and who emerged as a "winner" when the dragons were slain, if anyone?

One of the few mentions of the dragon pit in the contemporary events is an alchemist telling Tyrion that a whore went there with a client, fell through rotted floor boards (something like that) and discovered a stockpile of wildfire grenades that Aerys must have stored there. So how many smallfolk regularly access the dragon pit? What do they do there besides entertain customers?

I suspect you are right that it's a metaphor for the decline of the Targ regime. I just like to understand the details. And since we know that GRRM uses rebirth-after-death as a plot device over and over again, understanding the details of this fallow time for the dragon pit might help to foreshadow a Targ rebirth.

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Lord Varys

Great topic! I feel Syrax's choice not to fly might have something to do with the Dragonpit mob's choice to willingly charge into the furnace.

That's a fine idea about Syrax representing the emotions of Rhaenyra while fighting on the ground. How tragic it would be if The Realm's Delight had indeed turned against her dragon and caused her death - think how close Rhaenyra and Syrax must once have been, for the Princess to be riding at the age of seven.

I suppose the OP would then also raise the question of a Targaryen mother's love VS her love for her dragon.

In saying that, if Lord Varys is correct, perhaps Rhaenyra's love for her claim to the Throne was what caused the death of Syrax - with the city in chaos, and another heir dead due to a dragon, the Half-Year-Queen's campaign was falling apart around her. Rhaenyra wishing death upon her dragon, due to a lost Prince who made a noble, yet foolish mistake, would be a pretty dark twist in terms of the Targaryen dragon lore.

In terms of other reasons why Syrax chose to fight with fang and claw, as opposed to an aerial assault, I think some kind of sorcery is a good possibility, perhaps the Hightowers?  Dependant on how many conspiracies the Lord's of Oldtown were actually involved in during the Dance, I wouldn't be surprised if they were behind both Syrax's grounding and the legion of crazies who willingly charged into the fire at the Dragonpit. Then again, I'm not sure what kind of spell would cause a dragon to not want to fly during combat.

If were talking magic, perhaps the COTF could be the culprits? If they really do have an issue with dragons, presumably due to "burned forests" or the like, then I'd imagine some skinchanging COTF might be able to control of either Joff or Syrax, causing the fall and subsequent ground fighting.

I'm not opposed to the idea of Netty being either from Singer stock or one of the Children herself, using some glamour. If the events of Joff's fall and Syrax's demise are indeed connected with the Dragon-Pit mob's peculiar behaviour, perhaps a COTF-connected Nettles is the cause? Her dragon was called sheepstealer, they allegedly bonded due to the brown girl feeding the dragon mutton, and the chap who started the riot was called "Shepherd" - Rhaenyra and Nettles certainly had issue, due to Daemon, but I'm not sure we have anything else to go on here.

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I don't know that it's taken for granted, I just wonder why a valuable piece of real estate is left abandoned. After the storming of the dragon pit and the death of the last dragons, were the Targaryens leaving the pit as a ruin to show that they had renounced dragons? We know that they were actually trying to hatch new dragons. Since they were trying to hatch new dragons, why didn't they clean up the burned ruin and rebuild it? Get it ready for new occupants and show the general population that the Targaryens did not intend to surrender their dragon weapons.

Another interesting question, Seams. I always found it odd that the Targs would allow such a negative bit of symbolism to be kept in all-too-public view. To your average KL inhabitant, the ruinous Dragon Pit would be a constant reminder of how the ruling dynasty were no-where near as powerful as they had been.

Why wouldn't a symbolically minded Hand like Brynden Rivers or Tywin Lannister organise a cleanup? A king like Egg - who seemed to genuinely believe he could bring back his winged brethren - really should have had the badly damaged Pit transformed into the kind of abode worthy of dragons.

Hell, the place was pretty much a barracks/fortress for dragons - with all the threat of the Blackfyres ever looming, the Dragon-Pit could even have made a good military base for Targaryen allied soldiers.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

That's a fine idea about Syrax representing the emotions of Rhaenyra while fighting on the ground. How tragic it would be if The Realm's Delight had indeed turned against her dragon and caused her death - think how close Rhaenyra and Syrax must once have been, for the Princess to be riding at the age of seven.

Not as close as a mother and her children, most likely.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I suppose the OP would then also raise the question of a Targaryen mother's love VS her love for her dragon.

I'm pretty sure I know who wins there in most cases.

8 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

In saying that, if Lord Varys is correct, perhaps Rhaenyra's love for her claim to the Throne was what caused the death of Syrax - with the city in chaos, and another heir dead due to a dragon, the Half-Year-Queen's campaign was falling apart around her. Rhaenyra wishing death upon her dragon, due to a lost Prince who made a noble, yet foolish mistake, would be a pretty dark twist in terms of the Targaryen dragon lore.

I didn't say it was a conscious thing on Rhaenyra's part. Just Syrax feeling Rhaenyra's feelings - both her grief for her son (which is very much confirmed) as well as her hatred for Syrax because what she did. It is very unlikely that she was not furious and very sad at the same time, and if Syrax felt all that - like Dreamfyre felt Helaena's death, Sunfyre Aegon II's need and misery, etc. - then it isn't unlikely that this was too much for her.

The really interesting thing here is what might happen in the main series if a dragon is going to do something (accidentally) its doesn't/cannot approve. What do we think Dany would feel for Drogon if he ended up causing the death of her child? Or her husband who she loved very much?

[Myrish Lace]

On 4/14/2018 at 1:46 PM, Lord Varys said:

This was always a very odd development.

Was it?

Dragons are animals. As such they do not operate in terms of tactics and rational thinking. It would make sense for Syrax to return or engage at range, but animal is not bound by sense. A trained horse may have mass and speed to charge the enemy, but few would assume that horses should perform cavalry charges without riders.

And when Syrax started grabbing little humans on the ground, the result was more or less inevitable. Dragonpit by itself was about as sound idea as an artillery depot on a volcano. And after the initial attack dragons ended up collapsing the dome and unleashing flames inside - none of which would do any favors to Dragonpit's stability. And then a big animal descended from above started trashing around the walls, chasing little humans. 

My money would be on a section collapsing upon Syrax and burying it the same way Dreamfyre was buried under the collapsing dome.

[Lord Varys]

47 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

My money would be on a section collapsing upon Syrax and burying it the same way Dreamfyre was buried under the collapsing dome.

We actually know that the rioters slew Syrax. That isn't a matter of dispute. And we do know she was not slain by parts of the building - not that there is any reason that stuff continued to collapse after Dreamfyre was dead. After all, the ruins of the Dragonpit still stand.

What is strange is the question why Syrax cared about involving herself in that thing there at all, and why she didn't take to the air once she realized that she was harassed by more little humans than she could deal with.

I mean, after Dreamfyre got rid of all her chains she took to the air, too, and would have flown high above her attackers had she been able to leave the Dragonpit.

The idea that a dragon would land and not use her natural advantages while hunting people doesn't make a lot of sense. We see how dragons hunt and kill in the series, and they usually don't do that on the ground.

There is a chance that Syrax may have been injured too strongly to take to the air again by a lucky attack of some dragonslayer, but that still doesn't explain why she landed there at all. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I didn't say it was a conscious thing on Rhaenyra's part. Just Syrax feeling Rhaenyra's feelings - both her grief for her son (which is very much confirmed) as well as her hatred for Syrax because what she did. It is very unlikely that she was not furious and very sad at the same time, and if Syrax felt all that - like Dreamfyre felt Helaena's death, Sunfyre Aegon II's need and misery, etc. - then it isn't unlikely that this was too much for her.

Yeah, this scenario would lend a lot of credence to the story of the Green and Black allied dragons snapping at each other, when once they had been civil. This unconscious emotional projection could also be viewed as similar to Grey Wind and Ghost's distrust of several anti-Robb and anti-Jon characters.

Also, what do you think of the possibility that Joff was being controlled by some outside force when he mounted his mother's dragon? A skinchanger or something like manticore venom perhaps?

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The really interesting thing here is what might happen in the main series if a dragon is going to do something (accidentally) its doesn't/cannot approve. What do we think Dany would feel for Drogon if he ended up causing the death of her child? Or her husband who she loved very much?

Hmm, that's a tricky one, LV.

With Dany, I'd like to think she would give her dragons the benefit of the doubt - assuming whatever chaos they caused was not entirely their own fault. They are her "children" after all. That said, look at how she chained up Viserion and Rhaegal, mainly due to a believed slight on Drogon's part - while she believed she was doing what was best for the people of the city, confining the young dragons to a cavernous vault was still a bit of a harsh punishment, in my opinion, but also one she clearly regrets.

Then again, if Balerion had caused the death of Aenys in circumstances similar to Prince Joff, I wonder how Aegon The Dragon would have reacted? The Targaryens seem to really believe they are biologically related to their dragons - an ideology I'd imagine was a lot more fervent during the closer-to-Valyrian-times.

Would the rider of the Black Dread then feel negativity towards his mount, or might he chalk his son's death up to a simple foolish mistake? - "Aenys should have known that riding someone else's dragon was impossible, for a dragon bucking off an unbonded rider is as natural as a dragon wanting to fly".

 

 

[Myrish Lace]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We actually know that the rioters slew Syrax. That isn't a matter of dispute.

No, we don't. "The truth of the matter no one will ever know — except that Syrax died that night".

The only fact that's not a matter of dispute is that it died. Everything else is explicitly defined as speculation. It could be that guy, that guy or that guy or none of them. No one will ever know.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What is strange is the question why Syrax cared about involving herself in that thing there at all, and why she didn't take to the air once she realized that she was harassed by more little humans than she could deal with.

Expecting an animal to operate in categories like "caring to involve", "consideration of natural advantages" and "tactical assessments of the battlefield" - that is strange. An animal behaving as if it doesn't have a capacity to reason is perfectly normal because an animal isn't supposed to have such capacity.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, after Dreamfyre got rid of all her chains she took to the air, too, and would have flown high above her attackers had she been able to leave the Dragonpit.

Considering that Dreamfyre was unable to grasp harsh reality of a ceiling above its head and didn't employ the tactic of hovering above the attackers under the ceiling, bathing them with fire, it's strange to expect Syrax to be radically smarter.

[Leo of House Cartel]

24 minutes ago, Myrish Lace said:

Expecting an animal to operate in categories like "caring to involve", "consideration of natural advantages" and "tactical assessments of the battlefield" - that is strange. An animal behaving as if it doesn't have a capacity to reason is perfectly normal because an animal isn't supposed to have such capacity.

Considering that Dreamfyre was unable to grasp harsh reality of a ceiling above its head and didn't employ the tactic of hovering above the attackers under the ceiling, bathing them with fire, it's strange to expect Syrax to be radically smarter.

Hey, Myrish Lace. 

I wouldn't be so sure about dragon intelligence. I'd argue that these are not mere "dumb beasts", but intelligent creatures, highly aware of what's going on around them. No, they probably are not capable of drawing the schematics for some mechanical invention; nor can they fill out a tax return form; what I would say is these creatures are evidently the apex predator of Planetos, animals who have sat atop the food chain for a long, long time - with thousands of years also spent being bonded to humans, I wonder how the already instinctively sharp dragon mind may have developed.

You mentioned "Consideration of natural advantages" and "tactical assessments of the battlefield" as something an animal wouldn't do - I have to disagree. IRL, most predatory animals (especially the winged ones) will certainly consider their surroundings and approach before attempting a kill.

In the series, we see Ghost and Summer assessing their surroundings, as well as Viserion making a "safe zone/potential escape route" for her/himself in that cavern she/he burrowed.

As to Dreamfyre, I'd argue that her smashing of the ceiling was an example of both her spacial awareness and a level of tactical assessment. With so many attackers wieding projectile weaponry, and dragons dying around her, Helena's dragon would have known she had to get out of there. Not only that, but the fact she broke her chains and was attempting to smash through the ceiling might show a certain level of memory and understanding of man made structures.

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Yeah, this scenario would lend a lot of credence to the story of the Green and Black allied dragons snapping at each other, when once they had been civil. This unconscious emotional projection could also be viewed as similar to Grey Wind and Ghost's distrust of several anti-Robb and anti-Jon characters.

We don't have to compare the historical dragons to the direwolves there. We see this kind of behavior in Dany's dragons, too, when they are antagonistic towards people Dany is aggressive towards (most notably Grazdan mo Eraz).

This is clearly not an invention by historians or storytellers but actually an observed phenomenon.

19 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Also, what do you think of the possibility that Joff was being controlled by some outside force when he mounted his mother's dragon? A skinchanger or something like manticore venom perhaps?

Pretty much nothing. However, Manticore venom (that is the one that can drive creatures mad, the one Jaqen likely used to turn Weese's dog against the man, right? I always confuse those poisons) distributed in diluted form (via the pot shops and soup kitchens the rioters hung out at before listening to the Shepherd) could explain how the Storming of the Dragonpit was possible.

I still think the realistic outcome of that Storming would have been, perhaps, the death of the smaller dragons but eventually a mass panic causing the deaths of most of the people up there with Dreamfyre, Syrax, and perhaps even Tyraxes surviving.

It is one thing to work yourself into a frenzy while fear and stress nearly driving you mad, and quite another to hold your ground while facing a creature as large and terrible and hot as Dreamfyre.

Sure, there are hints that this might have been an arranged attack, with actually rather well-armed and armored dragonslayers among the rioters, but the numbers indicate that many of the men up there would have indeed been common rioters, and if they were not somehow made so mad and aggressive that they would not be able to overcome basic fear of death it is very hard to explain how things could unfold as they did.

Naturally, humans being stuck in tight places facing mortal danger enter in a state of mass panic, trampling each other to death. They do not act rationally, or continue to face the mortal danger while they see people around them already burning and dying. Under normal circumstances people would have started killing each other as soon as a group of people being welcomed in the Dragonpit by a blast of fire by Dreamfyre would turn around to get out of her way - and then being met on the way out by people who desperately wanted to get in to kill the dragons.

19 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

With Dany, I'd like to think she would give her dragons the benefit of the doubt - assuming whatever chaos they caused was not entirely their own fault. They are her "children" after all. That said, look at how she chained up Viserion and Rhaegal, mainly due to a believed slight on Drogon's part - while she believed she was doing what was best for the people of the city, confining the young dragons to a cavernous vault was still a bit of a harsh punishment, in my opinion, but also one she clearly regrets.

Yeah, that was a situation of conflict. But at that point she had not yet claimed a dragon. It is an interesting question what such a thing might do to the bond between a dragon and its rider. Knowing something rationally isn't the same thing as getting over your emotions or forgiving the creature for what it did.

We know that certain Targaryens had issues with dragons - King Aenys lost his mother Rhaenys in the First Dornish War and was afterwards apparently wary of dragon warfare - although not of his dragon, Quicksilver, or dragonriding as such. Aegon III was deeply traumatized by the fact that he saw his mother being devoured by Sunfyre, and developed a mortal fear of dragons afterwards. If he still had had a dragon at this point I don't think these two would have been happy with their bond. And in addition Aegon III also saw other stuff - he desperately fled from the ship on his own dragon Stormcloud, and later believed he had abandoned his brother Viserys to die, he saw Syrax cause his half-brother Joffrey fall to his death, etc.

19 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Then again, if Balerion had caused the death of Aenys in circumstances similar to Prince Joff, I wonder how Aegon The Dragon would have reacted? The Targaryens seem to really believe they are biologically related to their dragons - an ideology I'd imagine was a lot more fervent during the closer-to-Valyrian-times.

One assumes that it wouldn't have been easy.

And the idea I'm entertaining here with Syrax is just that her connection with Rhaenyra caused her to do things in a certain way that didn't exactly strengthen the chances of her survival. It could have been that Rhaenyra's thoughts drove Syrax to the Dragonpit - either to punish the people there who had were killing the Targaryen dragons - and who had triggered the chain of events that led to the death of Prince Joffrey - or so that the people killing the other dragons could now also kill Syrax who deserved to die in Rhaenyra's mind after killing Joffrey.

19 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Would the rider of the Black Dread then feel negativity towards his mount, or might he chalk his son's death up to a simple foolish mistake? - "Aenys should have known that riding someone else's dragon was impossible, for a dragon bucking off an unbonded rider is as natural as a dragon wanting to fly".

See above. Knowing that something was a mistake/accident isn't the same was forgiving something on an emotional level.

19 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

No, we don't. "The truth of the matter no one will ever know — except that Syrax died that night".

 

This is the full quote from TPatQ, and it makes pretty clear that Syrax was not crushed beneath the building. The stories we know attribute the death of the dragon to people, not collapsing structures. It is not clear who killed Syrax, nor how, but it is clear that people were responsible.

Quote

Unchained and riderless, Syrax might have easily have flown away from the madness. The sky was hers. She could have returned to the Red Keep, left the city entirely, taken wing for Dragonstone. Was it the noise and fire that drew her to the Hill of Rhaenys, the roars and screams of dying dragons, the smell of burning flesh? We cannot know, no more than we can know why Syrax chose to descend upon the mobs, rending them with tooth and claw and devouring dozens, when she might as easily have rained fire on them from above, for in the sky no man could have harmed her. We can only report what happened.
Many a conflicting tale is told of the death of the queen’s dragon. Some credit Hobb the Hewer and his axe, though this is almost certainly mistaken. Could the same man truly have slain two dragons on the same night and in the same manner? Some speak of an unnamed spearman, “a blood-soaked giant” who leapt from the Dragonpit’s broken dome onto the dragon’s back. Others relate how a knight named Ser Warrick Wheaton slashed a wing from Syrax with a Valyrian steel sword. A crossbowman named Bean would claim the kill afterward, boasting of it in many a wine sink and tavern, until one of the queen’s loyalists grew tired of his wagging tongue and cut it out. The truth of the matter no one will ever know—except that Syrax died that night.

 

19 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Expecting an animal to operate in categories like "caring to involve", "consideration of natural advantages" and "tactical assessments of the battlefield" - that is strange. An animal behaving as if it doesn't have a capacity to reason is perfectly normal because an animal isn't supposed to have such capacity.

Again, birds usually make use of the fact that they can fly when they interact with prey.

19 hours ago, Myrish Lace said:

Considering that Dreamfyre was unable to grasp harsh reality of a ceiling above its head and didn't employ the tactic of hovering above the attackers under the ceiling, bathing them with fire, it's strange to expect Syrax to be radically smarter.

Here I agree with @Leo of House Cartel. Dreamfyre realized that the dome had been weakened and that it was her only chance to get out of there (and perhaps continue the attack on her terms). She didn't/couldn't foresee that the collapsing dome would slay her, too. But perhaps there might have been a chance that she would have gotten out of there alive if the dome and broken in a different manner, or if she had hit it hard enough to get through before it began collapsing. We don't know.

Dragons certainly are animals, but dragons sharing a bond with their riders are, in a sense, more than just animals. 

We'll have to wait and see what Dany's dragons will do after they have been claimed by riders. Will they come to their aid over vast distances like Sunfyre may have come to the aid of Aegon II? Will their riders be capable to cause them to do certain things while they are not riding them - like, say, causing them to come to them to help them get off a burning ship during a sea battle, or targeting a special ship during such a battle while they are riderless (because the enemy general is aboard that ship)?

We have to wait and see.