GAROVORKIN Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 When people cease to believe in God or the hereafter, they ultimately to believe in everything, including themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 48 minutes ago, Durckad said: Mayhaps it was the the baked potato that abandoned you. But... but what will I bury in my back yard when fiat currency collapses? Bodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 I did abandon it. I'm open to worshipping the Great Baked Potatoe or Universal Mr. Potatoe Head or whatever it is, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck norris 42 Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 I thought both ideas below common knowledge and the link between them is obvious but live and learn. A common defence of religion is that it is the basis of our morality The original basis of the value of our currency was the gold standard, but getting rid of the original basis was a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 I don't think it being the basis of our morality is a particularly good defence of religion, and I'm religious, but comparing religion/morality to the gold standard/currency is a ridiculous idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 3 hours ago, Durckad said: But... but what will I bury in my back yard when fiat currency collapses? I suggest potatoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck norris 42 Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 19 minutes ago, polishgenius said: I don't think it being the basis of our morality is a particularly good defence of religion, and I'm religious, but comparing religion/morality to the gold standard/currency is a ridiculous idea. It is a common defence of religion though, and from that perspective a counterexamples are any examples were the original basis of something was removed without damaging it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 3 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said: When people cease to believe in God or the hereafter, they ultimately to believe in everything, including themselves. Funny, I think it's the other way around, that people start truly believing in themselves when they abandon their imaginary friends and crazy ideas that there is any such thing as divine/karmic justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, chuck norris 42 said: It is a common defence of religion though, and from that perspective a counterexamples are any examples were the original basis of something was removed without damaging it at all. But if for example you removed the base of the Eiffel Tower it would fall down. So better keep religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Haha, what the fook? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DireWolfSpirit Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 3 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said: When people cease to believe in God or the hereafter, they ultimately to believe in everything, including themselves. Is this the "Not having a crux IS a crux" defense? Sounds like an extraordinary position you've carved out for yourself there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacuna Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 51 minutes ago, Errant Bard said: I suggest potatoes. The spud of all evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 56 minutes ago, chuck norris 42 said: It is a common defence of religion though, and from that perspective a counterexamples are any examples were the original basis of something was removed without damaging it at all. Religion is as close to a human universal as anything. I don't think there has been a human society without some sort of religion. I don't know enough about the history of the "gold standard" but it obviously is not universal. Religion does not have to be the logical basis of morality (I don't think it is in the sense most people believe) but it can still be the practical basis or in any case very important for both morality and lots of other things. Now we get the "counterexamples" about devoutly catholic mafiosi and ethically impeccable atheists (I am pretty sure the former exist, and let's grant the latter for the sake of argument). But these "counterexamples" miss the point. Single people are mostly irrelevant. On a societal level it is far too early to tell what happens after the removal of religion because that experiment is less than a century old, still very much in progress and subject to strange pendulum swings (i.e. there were still very religious periods and regions after Nietzsche ;)). In any case it is interesting that the regions that seem the most areligious or irreligious (at least wrt traditional religions) today, namely (northwestern) Europe have been shaped by christianity for more than a millenium and often by fairly strict/devout forms of protestantism for almost 500 years. Such societies have internalized lots of aspects of these religions and then "removed the basis" in some sense. But the "action" of religion during these centuries was not simply giving a foundation. It was more like a web being woven through all of life and society. You get rid of some more explicitly religious things but you keep others or you keep secularized variants. And that now these societies seem to work fine and produce "virtuous atheists" since a few decades does not prove anything about the general case of a society without religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 This is why I worship Crom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, Jo498 said: On a societal level it is far too early to tell what happens after the removal of religion because that experiment is less than a century old, still very much in progress and subject to strange pendulum swings (i.e. there were still very religious periods and regions after Nietzsche ;)). Although it doesn't contradict your overall point, I understand that historians have shown that societies in the past were not as religious as we tend to believe. For example, Europeans in the Middle-Ages could have an outlook on religion way more comparable to ours than you would expect. And needless to say, polytheist societies had a completely different approach to morality anyway. Not to mention the way small tribes of humans can separate faith from morality. [disclaimer: I don't know much about these things, but I am very curious about them] This being said, it is true that we have no idea what a society without religion really looks like. Recent experiments have been short-lived and past ones are difficult to assess. I would also agree with your analysis that a society imbued with religion-based morality can eventually get rid of religion because it will keep its basis for morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukle Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 11 hours ago, maarsen said: If religion is abandoned, how long till a cryptoreligion is created to fill the void? This made me genuinely lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck norris 42 Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Rippounet said: Funny, I think it's the other way around, that people start truly believing in themselves when they abandon their imaginary friends and crazy ideas that there is any such thing as divine/karmic justice. Huh?? Aren't you both saying that after you Abandon god you start believing in yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, chuck norris 42 said: Huh?? Aren't you both saying that after you Abandon god you start believing in yourself Ah, maybe, I assumed that Garo-kun had forgotten a word there, but come to hink of it, yeah, maybe we're saying the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 We abandoned the gold standard? *adjusts pince nez* No wonder this world has gone to the dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace, Extat Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 Just now, Mlle. Zabzie said: We abandoned the gold standard? *adjusts pince nez* No wonder this world has gone to the dogs. That Saudi Prince I've been Emailing is going to be pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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