ladyD

Wex, Manderly, and Glover Lied to Davos

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22 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

:idea:   AND you have yet to supply a textual quote.   Peace out.

 

 

Not sure which quotes you want but here is the exchange between Luwin, Brand, and Co. 

"The godswood." Meera Reed ran after the direwolf, her shield and frog spear to hand. The rest of them trailed after, threading their way through smoke and fallen stones. The air was sweeter under the trees. A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."
 
On the edge of the black pool, beneath the shelter of the heart tree, Maester Luwin lay on his belly in the dirt. A trail of blood twisted back through damp leaves where he had crawled. Summer stood over him, and Bran thought he was dead at first, but when Meera touched his throat, the maester moaned. "Hodor?" Hodor said mournfully. "Hodor?"
 
Gently, they eased Luwin onto his back. He had grey eyes and grey hair, and once his robes had been grey as well, but they were darker now where the blood had soaked through. "Bran," he said softly when he saw him sitting tall on Hodor's back. "And Rickon too." He smiled. "The gods are good. I knew . . ."
 
"Knew?" said Bran uncertainly.
"The legs, I could tell . . . the clothes fit, but the muscles in his legs . . . poor lad . . ." He coughed, and blood came up from inside him. "You vanished . . . in the woods . . . how, though?"
 
"We never went," said Bran. "Well, only to the edge, and then doubled back. I sent the wolves on to make a trail, but we hid in Father's tomb."
"The crypts." Luwin chuckled, a froth of blood on his lips. When the maester tried to move, he gave a sharp gasp of pain.
 
Tears filled Bran's eyes. When a man was hurt you took him to the maester, but what could you do when your maester was hurt?
"We'll need to make a litter to carry him," said Osha.
 
"No use," said Luwin. "I'm dying, woman."
"You can't," said Rickon angrily. "No you can't." Beside him, Shaggydog bared his teeth and growled.
 
The maester smiled. "Hush now, child, I'm much older than you. I can . . . die as I please."
"Hodor, down," said Bran. Hodor went to his knees beside the maester.
 
"Listen," Luwin said to Osha, "the princes . . . Robb's heirs. Not . . . not together . . . do you hear?"
The wildling woman leaned on her spear. "Aye. Safer apart. But where to take them? I'd thought, might be these Cerwyns . . ."
 
Maester Luwin shook his head, though it was plain to see what the effort cost him. "Cerwyn boy's dead. Ser Rodrik, Leobald Tallhart, Lady Hornwood . . . all slain. Deepwood fallen, Moat Cailin, soon Torrhen's Square. Ironmen on the Stony Shore. And east, the Bastard of Bolton."
"Then where?" asked Osha.
 
White Harbor . . . the Umbers . . . I do not know . . . war everywhere . . . each man against his neighbor, and winter coming . . . such folly, such black mad folly . . ." Maester Luwin reached up and grasped Bran's forearm, his fingers closing with a desperate strength. "You must be strong now. Strong."
 
"I will be," Bran said, though it was hard. Ser Rodrik killed and Maester Luwin, everyone, everyone . . .
 
"Good," the maester said. "A good boy. Your . . . your father's son, Bran. Now go."
Osha gazed up at the weirwood, at the red face carved in the pale trunk. "And leave you for the gods?"
 
"I beg . . ." The maester swallowed. ". . . a . . . a drink of water, and . . . another boon. If you would . . ."
"Aye." She turned to Meera. "Take the boys."
 
Manderly's lie
 
Davos thought about that. "The old gods saved him?"
 
"After a fashion. He climbed the heart tree and hid himself amongst the leaves. Bolton's men searched the godswood twice and killed the men they found there, but none thought to clamber up into the trees. Is that how it happened, Wex?"
 
The boy flipped up Glover's dagger, caught it, nodded.
 
"The voices of the dead," said Wyman Manderly.
 
Wex held up five fingers, tapped each one with the dagger, then folded four away and tapped the last again.
 
"Six of them," asked Davos. "There were six."

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I see what you are saying now. However note that Meera doesn't actually speak while in that location if he is counting voices. If he is talking about how many survived, Luwin didn't.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, ladyD said:

snip

The Wex thawg is interesting to me. Thanks for the topic.

The thing is youse should not have edited the original post. I went back for the video link. It ain't there no more.

Dickering around with the six or seven matters not to me. I will engage further once I have read the relevant chapters and refreshed my memory.

Again thanks for the topic.

 

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4 hours ago, ladyD said:

Well, the fact that he said he only heard 6 voices when there would have been 7 and his description of the killings in the Godswood are my reasons for asking. What about those? Can anyone actually comment on those inconsistencies? Why did he say he heard 6 voices when there were 7? Why did he say there was a godswoods sweep where Ramsey's men killed men in the Godswood if Bran and Co. didn't see any other bodies in the Godswood? These 2 things he said are obviously lies...

 

Unreliable narrator. Or in Wex's case unreliable witness. The kid wasn't in the best of shape, and maybe two of the voices sounded similar enough that he didn't count them separately. Also trauma messes with peoples' memories. If he'd gotten everything right THAT would be a red flag. 

If Wex was lying, that still doesn't mean Manderly and Glover were. Didn't they get their info from Wex? You're not lying if you are repeating bad intel that you believe to be good intel.

Rickon is coming back, per GRRM. When he returns I doubt anyone is going to care much whether Wex had a couple of things wrong. If Davos spends a bunch of time off on a wild unicorn chase, HE might care, but I don't see GRRM giving him a totally useless travelogue.

 

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I re-read the Davos chapter, and the six appears to refer to the number of people he saw leaving the castle.  I have doubts that he would be able to keep track of six or seven voices well enough to differentiate them and give an exact number.  I doubt I could.  I'd probably lose track after about 4 or so.

The only way I can think of that he would know about Skagos is if he overheard Osha say something.  Given that he is careful to stay downwind, it's certainly a possibility.  Any other inconsistencies are probably the result of the difficulties of getting info out of someone who can neither talk nor write.  Or GRRM not paying close enough attention.:P

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14 hours ago, ladyD said:

If he was in the tree he would have heard 7 voices because Lewyn was still alive and speaking.

There are plenty of explanations for this other than Wex lying. If you hear a group of people talking, then see six people walking away, it’s not unreasonable to later say “I heard six people talking”. Also, Wex was communicating by signs, etc., so a few things may be lost in translation, without losing the overall gist. That there were seven, not six, people, and one of them is dead is irrelevant information as far as Manderly is concerned.

 

14 hours ago, ladyD said:

And Manderly, he never tells us how Wex came to him- and gives no details on how Wex knows (a woman) “Osha”  and Bran went to Skagos.

There are plenty of plausible explanations for this too, the most obvious being Wex heard Osha say to Rickon "we're going to Skagos"

As others have said, the problem is that there seems to be no real reason why Manderly would make up this specific lie. 

What does Manderly gain by sending Davos to Skagos? If he wanted rid of him, he could have simply killed him (as he pretended to anyway), or lock him up. There’s zero benefit in taking the risk of angering the Lannisters, Boltons and Freys by keeping him alive, only to send him on a wild goose chase for no discernible reason.

If Davos turns up at Skagos, and Rickon is nowhere to be found, all he then does is return to Stannis and report to him that Rickon and Bran might still be alive. That’s a huge piece of information to just throw at someone you’re conspiring against.

Edited by Shouldve Taken The Black

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11 hours ago, Makk said:

I see what you are saying now. However note that Meera doesn't actually speak while in that location if he is counting voices. If he is talking about how many survived, Luwin didn't.

 

 

Jojen did not speak either and Wex specifically communicated in the chapter that he heard them from the tree. Also the other points I made in the first post, how do you justify that? No bodies in the Godswood, Luwin alive to speak to Bran, and the Godswood was not burnt? He came back and reported on what he saw- for me is the only plausible explanation. Or else he would have known how Luwin died, the godwood would be burnt, and we would have seen the bodies that were caught in the sweep that Manderly describes. 

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2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

There are plenty of explanations for this other than Wex lying. If you hear a group of people talking, then see six people walking away, it’s not unreasonable to later say “I heard six people talking”. Also, Wex was communicating by signs, etc., so a few things may be lost in translation, without losing the overall gist. That there were seven, not six, people, and one of them is dead is irrelevant information as far as Manderly is concerned.

 

There are plenty of plausible explanations for this too, the most obvious being Wex heard Osha say to Rickon "we're going to Skagos"

As others have said, the problem is that there seems to be no real reason why Manderly would make up this specific lie. 

What does Manderly gain by sending Davos to Skagos? If he wanted rid of him, he could have simply killed him (as he pretended to anyway), or lock him up. There’s zero benefit in taking the risk of angering the Lannisters, Boltons and Freys by keeping him alive, only to send him on a wild goose chase for no discernible reason.

If Davos turns up at Skagos, and Rickon is nowhere to be found, all he then does is return to Stannis and report to him that Rickon and Bran might still be alive. That’s a huge piece of information to just throw at someone you’re conspiring against.

2

1. Luwin was ALIVE he was a maester - his death would have been relevant and if Wex was not lying and there was a godwoods sweep where Ramseys men killed anyone they found there (as pointed out in the text) then we would have seen a burnt godwood, bodies in the godswood, and they would not have left Luwin alive to spread the tale. However if wex wasn't there it would have appeared that Luwin was slain by a Bolton bc Osha took him out. Wex can count, very well - he's an excellent dicer and he's also a great tracker. The text is clear on this- he counted all 5 fingers then tapped one again. He was clearly saying 6. No miscommunication is there. 

2. There is a reason Manderly would have made up the lie, however because that was not the reason for this thread- and because the textual evidence is very long I chose not to post that here. If you are all interested, I'll post the textual evidence I have for that as well. 

3. Why does Manderly send Davos to Skagos? Because Rickon is there. No where in the thread did I say he wasn't. 

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8 hours ago, Nevets said:

I re-read the Davos chapter, and the six appears to refer to the number of people he saw leaving the castle.  I have doubts that he would be able to keep track of six or seven voices well enough to differentiate them and give an exact number.  I doubt I could.  I'd probably lose track after about 4 or so.

The only way I can think of that he would know about Skagos is if he overheard Osha say something.  Given that he is careful to stay downwind, it's certainly a possibility.  Any other inconsistencies are probably the result of the difficulties of getting info out of someone who can neither talk nor write.  Or GRRM not paying close enough attention.:P

 

 

Wex specifically said that he heard their voices from up in that tree and again, If he was not lying about being there he would know how Luwin died instead of making up a story about Ramsey sweeping the godswood twice and killing who they found there. That did not happen. If it did Luwin would not have been alive to speak to Bran and Co. Also, the godswood is unburnt which conflicts Wex's story. However if he was not there and came back he could have found all the things that Bran and Co found 3 days after the burning of Winterfell as evidenced by the text and outlined in the very first post. He found their tracks. Tracks he is familiar with bc he tracked them before with Theon. 
 

Staying downwind from a direwolf yet being close enough to hear Osha say "we are going to Skagos" is, I feel, implausible. A mute enemy child showing up at Manderly's doorstep after what everyone believes Theon did would not have gotten the time of day IMO. There is more going on here. A lot more.

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15 minutes ago, ladyD said:

. Luwin was ALIVE he was a maester - his death would have been relevant

Why? I don't see how Luwin's death would change Manderly's plans at all.

16 minutes ago, ladyD said:

if Wex was not lying and there was a godwoods sweep where Ramseys men killed anyone they found there (as pointed out in the text) then we would have seen a burnt godwood, bodies in the godswood, and they would not have left Luwin alive to spread the tale.

Luwin may have dragged himself there after the sweep, or he was not noticed, or he was passed out and they thought he was dead. I'm not going to bat for any of these options, I'm just pointing out there are plenty of possible explanations.

17 minutes ago, ladyD said:

The text is clear on this- he counted all 5 fingers then tapped one again. He was clearly saying 6. No miscommunication is there.

Like I said. He could have heard voices, then seen six people walking away. Then he may have reasonably assumed that six people were talking.

18 minutes ago, ladyD said:

There is a reason Manderly would have made up the lie, however because that was not the reason for this thread- and because the textual evidence is very long I chose not to post that here. If you are all interested, I'll post the textual evidence I have for that as well. 

Please do. Motive is an important part of proof.

19 minutes ago, ladyD said:

Why does Manderly send Davos to Skagos? Because Rickon is there. No where in the thread did I say he wasn't. 

Right, so we're back to me asking what the reason is for the lie. 

 

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10 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Unreliable narrator. Or in Wex's case unreliable witness. The kid wasn't in the best of shape, and maybe two of the voices sounded similar enough that he didn't count them separately. Also trauma messes with peoples' memories. If he'd gotten everything right THAT would be a red flag. 

If Wex was lying, that still doesn't mean Manderly and Glover were. Didn't they get their info from Wex? You're not lying if you are repeating bad intel that you believe to be good intel.

Rickon is coming back, per GRRM. When he returns I doubt anyone is going to care much whether Wex had a couple of things wrong. If Davos spends a bunch of time off on a wild unicorn chase, HE might care, but I don't see GRRM giving him a totally useless travelogue.

 

1. As Makk helped me out with, technically only 5 people were speaking - but there were 7 present and 6 pairs of tracks. If he were there he would know that. He doesn't because he was not there. Trauma is one thing but how do you explain the made up godswood sweep? Where Ramsey's men killed who they found there and burnt the godswood? When Bran and Co. walk through Winterfell the godswood is unburnt and there are NO BODIES in the godswood. Until Luwin dies by Osha's hand. 

Wex left, came back and tracked them. Its the only plausible explaination or he would know how Luwin died (not in a sweep) and if there was a sweep Ramseys men sure as hell would not leave someone alive to tell the tale. Bran and Co. came out of the crypts 3 days later --- they were watching winterfell burn from inside their wolves - that's in the text. Wex could have easily witnessed all they did several days after the burning of WF- which would explain his inconsistencies. He is tracking them and assumes Luwin was caught in a sweep.

2. This is true but Manderly had forces there at the battle of winterfell/the wintertown. Martin specifically said in a "So Spake Martin" that there were indeed survivors of the battle and that these survivors would have returned home, though with confused tales. By now they should be on to something. Also, how likely is it that Manderly would just take wex's word for it without sending someone to investigate? Wex was an enemy before he became a Manderly ward. 

3. I never said Rickon was not on Skagos. Why does everyone keep using this point? LOL - guys the thread is really only about Wex and Manderly lying to Davos about WF. IMO Manderly is working with the IBorn - that has to be a separate thread as there are a lot of quotes from the text that support this. 

Thanks for commenting! 

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14 minutes ago, ladyD said:

Staying downwind from a direwolf yet being close enough to hear Osha say "we are going to Skagos" is, I feel, implausible.

It's plausible, though you can believe it's unlikely. The direwolves aren't permanently attached to the Stark kids, they often roam widely. Plus, they don't simply savage anyone that comes within a 1 mile radius. Shaggy may not have considered him a threat. 

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Maester Luwin was hurt in the yard, not in the godswood. He was trying to get to the Theon when he was speared between the shoulders and run down by a horseman. The odds are good that he just stayed in the yard, played dead while Ramsay was and his men were rounding up the women and children and putting Winterfell to the torch. If the men swept the godswood twice looking for survivors, Maester Luwin was simply not there, but dragged himself there after everyone was gone.

As far as Wex goes, we don't know how far he traveled behind Osha. We know she said she would follow the kingsroad. He could have overheard her mentioning Skagos. Wex could have decided to go to one of the three places where he knew the ironborn were and been taken by the Manderlys in the process of doing that. We are told that Wyman Manderly sent knights by barge as reinforcements to Rodrik Cassel, but as far as I remember, those men were not outside the gates of Winterfell (neither were the Umbers for that matter) when Ramsay showed up with his Dreadfort men. Wex could have been taken and delivered to White Harbor by Wyman's own men.

The thing in all of this is that Wyman Manderly doesn't need to tell Davos squat about anything he doesn't want him to know. Wyman lies and schemes with the best of them and he gave Davos just enough information to send him on his way. 

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Just now, ladyD said:

I never said Rickon was not on Skagos. Why does everyone keep using this point? LOL - guys the thread is really only about Wex and Manderly lying to Davos about WF. IMO Manderly is working with the IBorn - that has to be a separate thread as there are a lot of quotes from the text that support this. 

I think the reason we all made that error is that it seems logical that if Manderly's lying about how he came across the information, then it must be to mislead Davos. Fair enough if that wasn't your point. 

If it's part of a wider theory then please do expand upon it, as it's confusing to debate one aspect of a theory without knowledge of the rest of it. 

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11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The Wex thawg is interesting to me. Thanks for the topic.

The thing is youse should not have edited the original post. I went back for the video link. It ain't there no more.

Dickering around with the six or seven matters not to me. I will engage further once I have read the relevant chapters and refreshed my memory.

Again thanks for the topic.

 

Here's the video link: 

And again thanks for commenting. But be warned the video is long because Wex lying is a part of a much larger theory - if you just want the Wex bits you will have to skip around. :-) 

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2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's plausible, though you can believe it's unlikely. The direwolves aren't permanently attached to the Stark kids, they often roam widely. Plus, they don't simply savage anyone that comes within a 1 mile radius. Shaggy may not have considered him a threat. 

Rickon was in such a state that Shaggy begins to growl from Rickon's sadness about Luwin dying. The kid and the wolf are unstable.  The animal is psychically linked to a scared child and you are right they do range widely - why would he not have smelled Wex? Why wouldn;t he be as defensive of Rickon as he was in the crypts? How would they not consider him a threat? He was hunting them with Theon and for all they know Theon is a part of the decimation of Winterfell. Thanks for commenting. 

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3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I think the reason we all made that error is that it seems logical that if Manderly's lying about how he came across the information, then it must be to mislead Davos. Fair enough if that wasn't your point. 

If it's part of a wider theory then please do expand upon it, as it's confusing to debate one aspect of a theory without knowledge of the rest of it. 

I see. Geez. It's just SOOOOO much text and it's hell copying from Search of Ice and Fire (I cant copy from the Kindle), which is why I made the video so I could just read it to everyone. Urgh. I'll start another thread today. In the meantime if you all want to listen to the video - its extra long because of all of the quotes and maps and that's here: 



Again thanks for commenting pros. 

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Just now, ladyD said:

Rickon was in such a state that Shaggy begins to growl from Rickon's sadness about Luwin dying. The kid and the wolf are unstable.  The animal is psychically linked to a scared child and you are right they do range widely - why would he not have smelled Wex? Why wouldn;t he be as defensive of Rickon as he was in the crypts? How would they not consider him a threat? He was hunting them with Theon and for all they know Theon is a part of the decimation of Winterfell.

All fair points, but not insurmountable. Yes, he may well have considered him a threat, but may not have. And he may not have smelled him, as Wex kept his distance, and only got up close when Shaggy was off hunting or something.

These are all simply possibilities, I'm just pointing out that these questions aren't proof in and of themselves that the whole story is a lie. 

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10 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Why? I don't see how Luwin's death would change Manderly's plans at all.

 

Because he is a significant member of the household just like Cassel. It's one more thing Wex would be able to say the Ironborn did not do. 

10 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Luwin may have dragged himself there after the sweep, or he was not noticed, or he was passed out and they thought he was dead. I'm not going to bat for any of these options, I'm just pointing out there are plenty of possible explanations.

 

There was no sweep. If there was there would have been bodies in the godswood and it would have been burnt as Wex described. Manderly and Glover communicate to Davos that Ramsey's men killed whomever the found there - but from the eyewitness account we have from Bran and Co. there are NO OTHER BODIES than the one they leave - Luwin. If Wex was there he would have known there was no sweep. He would not have assumed Luwin got caught in one. Luwin dragging himself there is obvious - he got stabbed by the front gate - totally true. Has nothing to do with Wex saying there was a sweep when there was not one. 

10 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Like I said. He could have heard voices, then seen six people walking away. Then he may have reasonably assumed that six people were talking.

 

There were only 5 technically talking, 6 pairs of tracks, but 7 people present. 

10 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Please do. Motive is an important part of proof.

Right, so we're back to me asking what the reason is for the lie. 

2

I didn't think the reason for the lie was important as the question was solely about the inconsistencies. The textual evidence is just a lot that's why I made the video but I will start a new thread after class probably and copy and paste what I can. If anyone knows of a faster way than a searchoficeandfire please let me know. My kindle app won't let me copy and paste and it's like pages of text y'all. Thanks for commenting. 

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