TPTWP Timett

Lyanna's condition.

47 posts in this topic

We aren't giving a lot of information about what went on at the TOJ, but I couldn't find anything on this sorry if it's been discussed to death (but what hasn't at this point). Lyanna clutching the winter roses never did sit right with me and is often used to explain her running away with Raegar instead being abducted, but what if she was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? Promise me Ned and holding some roses are a feeble explanation for a love story. I admit evidence is lacking for this theory as it is for all R+L theories. Stockholm Syndrome would be unheard of to the characters in story, but it could explain why Ned never knew Raegar mistreated his sister thus never thinks poorly of him. I am a R+L=J hater, but I've accepted it and moved on to this what do you think?

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It seems like Lyanna begin to develop some type of affinity for Rheagar at Harrenhal. When she wept as he played. I'm inclined to believe that she genuinely found him to be a more palatable option than Robert B. Also, if she is as cunning as it is hinted she was, I am willing to bet life as a queen looked far more appealing than being Robert's Lady of Storm's End. Robert already had bastards by this time. Rheagar, on the other hand, had a wife who could not have children anymore. Lyanna could have lived as a queen and had relative freedom and happiness compared to being Robert's wife. 

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7 minutes ago, ladyD said:

It seems like Lyanna begin to develop some type of affinity for Rheagar at Harrenhal. When she wept as he played. I'm inclined to believe that she genuinely found him to be a more palatable option than Robert B. Also, if she is as cunning as it is hinted she was, I am willing to bet life as a queen looked far more appealing than being Robert's Lady of Storm's End. Robert already had bastards by this time. Rheagar, on the other hand, had a wife who could not have children anymore. Lyanna could have lived as a queen and had relative freedom and happiness compared to being Robert's wife. 

I never thought she would be so careless as to run away without anyone knowing if we knew she told one person it would be different. Sure Raegar seems like a better option than Bobby B from the outside. And she may not have known how Robert would react but she had to know how her big brother Brandon would. She basically put her family in harm's way and you're leaving out that there's no proof of marriage so at this point she's a mistress or concubine at best no queen for sure at least until we get more information. Also Lyanna isn't free to marry who she will and stealing one great Lord's daughter and another's fiancee is hardly a way to start a peaceful transition away from his father.

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Lyanna is described as being wild, stating her dislike for her betrothed very clearly, an excellent horsewoman and Ned says (I can’t remember) as her being like iron or steel, and doubting if she would have been complacent with Robert. 

It doesn’t mean that she couldn’t have Stockholm Syndrome, I just wouldn’t pick on her as the type, if she has loudly declared her disgust for her arranged marriage. She was sort of going outside the box there already, and knowing her own mind. Ned thinks she was too strong for her own good.

Rhaegar is not described as the type to brutalize her or manipulate her into identifying with an abuser.

There are other characters that you could make a better case for. Still, the circumstances of Lyanna’s disappearance are a mystery.

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13 minutes ago, TPTWP Timett said:

I never thought she would be so careless as to run away without anyone knowing if we knew she told one person it would be different. Sure Raegar seems like a better option than Bobby B from the outside. And she may not have known how Robert would react but she had to know how her big brother Brandon would. She basically put her family in harm's way and you're leaving out that there's no proof of marriage so at this point she's a mistress or concubine at best no queen for sure at least until we get more information. Also Lyanna isn't free to marry who she will and stealing one great Lord's daughter and another's fiancee is hardly a way to start a peaceful transition away from his father.

U know. I don't think anyone could have predicted the stupidity that was Brandon Stark going to KL to tell the Prince to come out and die. That has got to be the most arrogant stupid thing ever and it makes no sense lol. What was he thinking?!? Perhaps she felt that she should have the freedom to marry who she wished like Arya felt she should have the right not to marry some Lord and have his children. As a woman I can definitely understand the resentment one must feel literally being raised to be chattel. With ownership passing from your father to your husband. We simply do not know enough but I think the evidence points to a planned rendezvous with Lyanna not being abducted until what a year after the Tourney? 

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18 minutes ago, ladyD said:

U know. I don't think anyone could have predicted the stupidity that was Brandon Stark going to KL to tell the Prince to come out and die. That has got to be the most arrogant stupid thing ever and it makes no sense lol. What was he thinking?!? Perhaps she felt that she should have the freedom to marry who she wished like Arya felt she should have the right not to marry some Lord and have his children. As a woman I can definitely understand the resentment one must feel literally being raised to be chattel. With ownership passing from your father to your husband. We simply do not know enough but I think the evidence points to a planned rendezvous with Lyanna not being abducted until what a year after the Tourney? 

I agree who could know Brandon would be that stupid especially when the king on the throne is known as "The Mad" but she had to know he'd do something. Maybe Lyanna did feel she should have a choice I agree most sane people would, but she didn't and Raegar knows that. I will have to think more about how young she was and what she might have been thinking but I believe she was abused I don't see Raegar in the best light no matter how it actually played out.

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47 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

 

Rhaegar is not described as the type to brutalize her or manipulate her into identifying with an abuser.

 

Raegar was obsessed, inbreed and obviously losing his mind. Unless kidnapping one Lord Paramount's daughter and another's fiancee is a way to start a peaceful transition of power.

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Well, we don’t know what happened yet. For all we know, Bran told Rhaegar and Lyanna via the weirwood, that their child would save the Kingdom. I’ve never been talked to prophetically,  but if I got some magical message from the past or future, it could definitely change my perspective on my actions. Sooner or later Bran is going to find out more and spill the beans, don’t you think?

And ya Brandon gets no wisdom points for his actions, though it would be interesting if LF lied to him, and got him to do such a suicidal and treasonous mistake.

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1 hour ago, ladyD said:

U know. I don't think anyone could have predicted the stupidity that was Brandon Stark going to KL to tell the Prince to come out and die. That has got to be the most arrogant stupid thing ever and it makes no sense lol. What was he thinking?!? Perhaps she felt that she should have the freedom to marry who she wished like Arya felt she should have the right not to marry some Lord and have his children. As a woman I can definitely understand the resentment one must feel literally being raised to be chattel. With ownership passing from your father to your husband. We simply do not know enough but I think the evidence points to a planned rendezvous with Lyanna not being abducted until what a year after the Tourney? 

:agree:     :agree:     :agree:

No one could have predicted a war would have started over this, and quite frankly it wouldn't have if it weren't for Brandon.

1 hour ago, TPTWP Timett said:

Raegar was obsessed, inbreed and obviously losing his mind. Unless kidnapping one Lord Paramount's daughter and another's fiancee is a way to start a peaceful transition of power.

Says you. He was inbred, no question, but not as much as the earlier Targs had been. Obsessed according to whom exactly? The only character who ever says a thing remotely against Rhaegar is Robert. Nobody says anything about him being obsessed or losing his mind. 

The only thing he could possibly be obsessed about would be the prophecy about the return of the Others, and the Dragon that was Promised. I'm sure you've noticed that the Others have returned, so I'd say Rhae Rhae's interest in the prophecy was warranted. Not to mention that he grew up thinking HE was the promised savior (no doubt because everyone told him he was) and didn't snap out of that delusion until he decided it was his son who was TDtwP, which brought us the third head conundrum. If he did all that he did in order to save the world, and as a result the world ends up saved, then who was crazy exactly?

There are many ways this could have gone. It could have been a kidnapping, or an elopement, or something in between. It could have been that Aerys ordered Lyanna arrested (KotLT) and Rhaegar followed orders but in a way that made it impossible for his father to actually hurt the girl. We don't know, so it's too early to damn anyone...except Brandon...he was a total dumbass.

30 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Well, we don’t know what happened yet. For all we know, Bran told Rhaegar and Lyanna via the weirwood, that their child would save the Kingdom. I’ve never been talked to prophetically,  but if I got some magical message from the past or future, it could definitely change my perspective on my actions. Sooner or later Bran is going to find out more and spill the beans, don’t you think?

And ya Brandon gets no wisdom points for his actions, though it would be interesting if LF lied to him, and got him to do such a suicidal and treasonous mistake.

I could see LF lying to him. But we're talking about a very young and less manipulative LF. There's no way he could have foreseen the monumental stupidity with which Brandon acted. That could well have been when he decided information was better than martial prowess, when he saw what havoc could be wreaked when the hot-headed are given just enough of a push in the wrong direction.

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44 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Says you. He was inbred, no question, but not as much as the earlier Targs had been. Obsessed according to whom exactly? The only character who ever says a thing remotely against Rhaegar is Robert. Nobody says anything about him being obsessed or losing his mind. 

The only thing he could possibly be obsessed about would be the prophecy about the return of the Others, and the Dragon that was Promised. I'm sure you've noticed that the Others have returned, so I'd say Rhae Rhae's interest in the prophecy was warranted. Not to mention that he grew up thinking HE was the promised savior (no doubt because everyone told him he was) and didn't snap out of that delusion until he decided it was his son who was TDtwP, which brought us the third head conundrum. If he did all that he did in order to save the world, and as a result the world ends up saved, then who was crazy exactly?

It's possible a little bit too clean for me. Also if Danny is the promised princess what was Raegar then? We don't know enough to whitewash Raegar at least in my opinion.

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3 minutes ago, TPTWP Timett said:

It's possible a little bit too clean for me. Also if Danny is the promised princess what was Raegar then? We don't know enough to whitewash Raegar at least in my opinion.

I'm not saying whitewash him, just don't paint him all black either. We really don't know what all was going on. And hey, maybe we'll find out he WAS going crazy.

If Dany is TDtwP then Rhaegar himself was a red herring. And that's a shame because he was the only living child of his parents for so long that people weren't even considering it could be another child of theirs, let alone a girl. And I'm guessing there's some kind of timeline info in the prophecy that made them think TDtwP had to be in a close generation, as opposed to the great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of Aerys and Rhaella.

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1 minute ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I'm not saying whitewash him, just don't paint him all black either. We really don't know what all was going on. And hey, maybe we'll find out he WAS going crazy.

If Dany is TDtwP then Rhaegar himself was a red herring. And that's a shame because he was the only living child of his parents for so long that people weren't even considering it could be another child of theirs, let alone a girl. And I'm guessing there's some kind of timeline info in the prophecy that made them think TDtwP had to be in a close generation, as opposed to the great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson of Aerys and Rhaella.

I hope the prophecy shows up in story I would love to read it. For what it's worth I didn't think so poorly of poor Raegar until I accepted R+L=J the perfect silver prince has the perfect hero who was raised in disguise just doesn't jive with what I think I'm reading. Lot's of possibilities and I hadn't thought of it reducing Raegar to a red herring, but I still think funny business was going on at the TOJ and I think it was pretty bad.

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Really the only people with a strong negative opinion on Rhaegar, that knew him, was Robert and the Martells. Just that their opinions were so prevalent in the first novel and third novels respectively, it kind of colored everything that came after. I think that says a lot about his character that people as varied as Ned and Jaime can think highly of him.

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4 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

Stockholm Syndrome would be unheard of to the characters

An argument could be made that 13 year old Dany suffered from Stockholm Syndrome, which is why she started to love Drogo after he brutally took every night while she cried into a pillow.

3 hours ago, ladyD said:

Brandon Stark going to KL to tell the Prince to come out and die

Who knows who told Brandon Stark what. Someone must have told him Rhaegar was in King Landing when he wasn't, maybe they also told him Rhaegar was keeping his sister his bed slave or maybe even killed her. Also it was an imprisoned and drunk Jaime Lannister telling Catelyn that Brandon Stark used the words "come out and die," while he's trying goad her. He may not have been telling the full truth. Who knows what else Brandon may have said or if those were the exact words he used. IIRC, Jaime is the only one who gave an account of what happen, until I hear the same from another character I'm going to take what Jaime said with a grain of salt.

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3 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

An argument could be made that 13 year old Dany suffered from Stockholm Syndrome, which is why she started to love Drogo after he brutally took every night while she cried into a pillow.

Who knows who told Brandon Stark what. Someone must have told him Rhaegar was in King Landing when he wasn't, maybe they also told him Rhaegar was keeping his sister his bed slave or maybe even killed her. Also it was an imprisoned and drunk Jaime Lannister telling Catelyn that Brandon Stark used the words "come out and die," while he's trying goad her. He may not have been telling the full truth. Who knows what else Brandon may have said or if those were the exact words he used. IIRC, Jaime is the only one who gave an account of what happen, until I hear the same from another character I'm going to take what Jaime said with a grain of salt.

I'm no doctor but Dany does seem to be a candidate. For what it's worth I trust what Jamie says more than most characters not that it means he couldn't have been lying just that I don't think he was.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

Raegar was obsessed, inbreed and obviously losing his mind. Unless kidnapping one Lord Paramount's daughter and another's fiancee is a way to start a peaceful transition of power.

But we don't know whether she was kidnapped.... all the info we have is biased in some way or the other.

Of course even if it was Rhaegar inviting Lyanna to run away with him and she accepted willingly for one reason or the other, it was still an illegal action on both their accounts. But sadly the vast majority of the menfolk involved never even took Lyanna's opinion into consideration, indeed a number of them (we know it to be true of Robert, at least) seem to operate under the assumption that she isn't allowed to have an opinion on her own. 

The number of ways this could have gone down have been discussed to death, even your Stockholm Syndrome idea isn't new.

But I agree that there could definitely be some Grey Area involved, even though I do not personally believe at this point that Rhaegar violently abducted Lyanna or forced himself upon her in the sense of what most people understand under that concept. 
Coercion might very well have been involved at one point or the other, but that wouldn't be different from a huge chunk of marriages in ASOIAF.

 

28 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

An argument could be made that 13 year old Dany suffered from Stockholm Syndrome, which is why she started to love Drogo after he brutally took every night while she cried into a pillow.


That's a very good argument that almost makes itself, since it's clearly visible on the page. She was sold into sexual slavery and started to interpret any kind of arbitrary kindness that monster showed to her as him feeling "tru wuv" for her. 

Edited by Orphalesion

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The fullest description of the events at the tower are in a dream. Its possible that she wasn't still hanging on to the flowers when Ned found her; that this is a dream element in his memory linking her death with her abduction. 

As to Stockholm syndrome, I'm not sure I know enough about the behavior of those affected to know if there are any hidden clues in the text, so I can't speak to that.

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5 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

The fullest description of the events at the tower are in a dream. Its possible that she wasn't still hanging on to the flowers when Ned found her; that this is a dream element in his memory linking her death with her abduction. 

Lyanna holding onto roses on her deathbed comes from Ned's memory of her demise in his very first PoV, it has nothing to do with the dream sequence.

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16 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

The fullest description of the events at the tower are in a dream. Its possible that she wasn't still hanging on to the flowers when Ned found her; that this is a dream element in his memory linking her death with her abduction. 

As to Stockholm syndrome, I'm not sure I know enough about the behavior of those affected to know if there are any hidden clues in the text, so I can't speak to that.

There are no clues Lyanna doesn't appear to hate Raegar from what I understand people suffering from Stockholm Syndrome come to identify and even love their captors. I am not claiming a great understanding of it but I did use Google. I thought about how if Lyanna did have Stockholm Syndrome she broke when Sansa didn't of course it's all speculation on my part.

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On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 8:00 PM, TPTWP Timett said:

We aren't giving a lot of information about what went on at the TOJ, but I couldn't find anything on this sorry if it's been discussed to death (but what hasn't at this point). Lyanna clutching the winter roses never did sit right with me and is often used to explain her running away with Raegar instead being abducted, but what if she was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? Promise me Ned and holding some roses are a feeble explanation for a love story. I admit evidence is lacking for this theory as it is for all R+L theories. Stockholm Syndrome would be unheard of to the characters in story, but it could explain why Ned never knew Raegar mistreated his sister thus never thinks poorly of him. I am a R+L=J hater, but I've accepted it and moved on to this what do you think?

Mayhaps they were both kidnapped, and Rhaegar only returned to fight the rebels because Aerys was holding his wife and children. Mayhaps we should consider A+L=J.

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