Lyanna's condition.

[cpg2016]

The balance of evidence seems to suggest that Lyanna, being a barely mature teenager, ran away the handsome prince Rhaegar as a means of escaping a marriage she was clearly dreading.

That does NOT mean that she was at the Tower of Joy willingly the entire time.  In fact, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that she was kept a prisoner there.  She isn't stupid, she knows that having a kid with Rhaegar ruins her chances at any sort of normal life as would be expected of a woman in her position.  Moreover, we also know she's close to and loyal to her family; it's beyond belief that she'd willingly stay with the man whose father brutally murdered her dad and brother.  Also, consider the circumstances.  She's isolated, in the middle of nowhere, unable/no allowed to contact anyone she knows or who cares about her, and is surrounded by armed guards.  Why is she giving birth in this isolated tower, with no real medical attention?  She's the daughter of one of the most powerful men in the realm, and her baby daddy is the Crown Prince - the kid she's giving birth to is an incredibly important person.  The ONLY reason she's in the ToJ is because her location is being kept a secret.  And the only reason for that is because she's a prisoner.  Why would she risk her life to stay secret - what danger is she in?  Her family will believe she's been kidnapped, so it's not like she has anything to fear there.  All of it points much more strongly to her being an unwilling resident rather than a collaborator, at least by the time Rhaegar leaves for King's Landing.

[TPTWP Timett]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Mayhaps they were both kidnapped, and Rhaegar only returned to fight the rebels because Aerys was holding his wife and children. Mayhaps we should consider A+L=J.

Mayhaps can go a lot of ways, not that A+L=J isn't as possible as what I speculated about.  I really am not wanting to believe in the perfect prince and his star-crossed love story.

[TPTWP Timett]

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

The balance of evidence seems to suggest that Lyanna, being a barely mature teenager, ran away the handsome prince Rhaegar as a means of escaping a marriage she was clearly dreading.

That does NOT mean that she was at the Tower of Joy willingly the entire time.  In fact, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that she was kept a prisoner there.  She isn't stupid, she knows that having a kid with Rhaegar ruins her chances at any sort of normal life as would be expected of a woman in her position.  Moreover, we also know she's close to and loyal to her family; it's beyond belief that she'd willingly stay with the man whose father brutally murdered her dad and brother.  Also, consider the circumstances.  She's isolated, in the middle of nowhere, unable/no allowed to contact anyone she knows or who cares about her, and is surrounded by armed guards.  Why is she giving birth in this isolated tower, with no real medical attention?  She's the daughter of one of the most powerful men in the realm, and her baby daddy is the Crown Prince - the kid she's giving birth to is an incredibly important person.  The ONLY reason she's in the ToJ is because her location is being kept a secret.  And the only reason for that is because she's a prisoner.  Why would she risk her life to stay secret - what danger is she in?  Her family will believe she's been kidnapped, so it's not like she has anything to fear there.  All of it points much more strongly to her being an unwilling resident rather than a collaborator, at least by the time Rhaegar leaves for King's Landing.

I basically agree with everything you said. I am fully convinced she was held against her will at some point.

[Bitterblooms]

On 4/17/2018 at 0:33 PM, Ygrain said:

Lyanna holding onto roses on her deathbed comes from Ned's memory of her demise in his very first PoV, it has nothing to do with the dream sequence.

I stand corrected! Thanks

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

I stand corrected! Thanks

You're welcome :-)

 

[JNR]

On 4/16/2018 at 7:00 PM, TPTWP Timett said:

Lyanna clutching the winter roses never did sit right with me

And it shouldn't.  

The book only says, generically, that rose petals -- of some sort -- fell from her palm, dead and black.  That they were winter roses is just a pecuiar idea some fans have.  

In fact, they probably were not winter roses, because Ned remembers the room smelling like roses:

Quote

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. 

...which means there must have been fresh roses in that room.

And obviously if Lyanna was in Dorne at the time Ned found her, then her room contained zero fresh winter roses.

On 4/16/2018 at 7:00 PM, TPTWP Timett said:

I am a R+L=J hater, but I've accepted it

Out of curiosity, why did you accept it?

[TPTWP Timett]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

And it shouldn't.  

The book only says, generically, that rose petals -- of some sort -- fell from her palm, dead and black.  That they were winter roses is just a pecuiar idea some fans have.  

In fact, they probably were not winter roses, because Ned remembers the room smelling like roses:

...which means there must have been fresh roses in that room.

And obviously if Lyanna was in Dorne at the time Ned found her, then her room contained zero fresh winter roses.

Out of curiosity, why did you accept it?

I had just finished Game of Thorne's and the Rose's still slipped through the cracks on me. To answer your question I originally suspected it on my first read, but after reading up to Dance I was convinced it was a red herring. I never really believed Ned fathered a bastard so I tried to come up with any alternative until forum member @DorianMartell'sSon beat me over the head with it in my Arthur Dayne +L=J thread

[Faera]

It never really crossed my mind that Lyanna had Stockholm Syndrome though I suppose it is possible. There's nothing to say she didn't and it's hard for any of us to make a judgement call on how she felt about Rhaegar at the end of her life after all that transpired. I have always been fairly sure she went willingly with Rhaegar though whether she lived to regret her choice in the end is another matter. 

Even as someone who fully believes R+L=J based on my own deductions I'll say there are plenty of questions about her death and state of mind yet to be answered. They might never be answered. We only have Ned's point of view of the situation and he wasn't clear about what Lyanna told him in the end. Even Howland Reed may not have been present for her actual death; Ned never clarifies fully whether he and his sister were completely alone nor can he clearly remember how much time past between Lyanna's death and when Howland took his hand from hers. Whether he literally only walked in after she died or had been standing in the shadows and witnessed the whole thing, we won't know until he turns up. He really is the only named independent source who could clarify what in Ned's memories are factual yet even he won't be able to say for certain what he state of mind was. If she was taken by fever, as Ned states, she might not have had the presence of mind to say anything other than what she wanted Ned to promise her.

As for the presence of roses - that could be several things. My more "out there" guess is that (at the very least) the smell of roses was from some tincture or oils for medicinal purpose, perhaps as treatment for her fever or to reduce her bleeding; we cannot rule out the possibility that the smell of roses was coming from something other than the ones she was holding. Heck, maybe she had a maid who brought her fresh roses to cheer her up!  Even if they were indeed the dried remains of the rose crown Rhaegar gave her then she could have been holding them out of sorrow over his death, crushing them in her fists in anger or wistfully longing to return to that moment and do things a little differently.

[TPTWP Timett]

6 hours ago, Faera said:

As for the presence of roses - that could be several things. My more "out there" guess is that (at the very least) the smell of roses was from some tincture or oils for medicinal purpose, perhaps as treatment for her fever or to reduce her bleeding; we cannot rule out the possibility that the smell of roses was coming from something other than the ones she was holding. Heck, maybe she had a maid who brought her fresh roses to cheer her up!  Even if they were indeed the dried remains of the rose crown Rhaegar gave her then she could have been holding them out of sorrow over his death, crushing them in her fists in anger or wistfully longing to return to that moment and do things a little differently.

I never really thought about it but you are right the roses could very well be there because of a maid are any number of reasons. I always operated under the impression that the roses she was clutching where the dried remains of the bouquet from Harrenhall, but that doesn't account for the smell of roses. I could also say they may have been the to cover a smell like the ring around the roses children's game/rhyme is about cover the smell of the dead from bubonic plague.

[Faera]

7 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

I never really thought about it but you are right the roses could very well be there because of a maid are any number of reasons. I always operated under the impression that the roses she was clutching where the dried remains of the bouquet from Harrenhall, but that doesn't account for the smell of roses. I could also say they may have been the to cover a smell like the ring around the roses children's game/rhyme is about cover the smell of the dead from bubonic plague.

Well exactly, if you look at our own history and how almost ubiquitous roses have been for their scent, natural oils, medicinal uses and beauty, there really are plenty of reasons roses would be present in that room. For the record I actually do think it was the crown Rhaegar gave her she was holding as it seems a reasonable conclusion based on the text but it could very well have been something else. Similarly, we can't even presume that the smell of roses was coming from the dead ones she clutched. The scent came from something else entirely. I don't know if anyone here deals with making art and craft out of dried, dead roses but, in my experience, they really don't tend to have a potent smell anymore once kept until dead and dry, not unless you bring it right up to your nose or you're adding the smell back in with oils or something. It depends on the rose - some keep their scent longer than others. Either way, my money is on the smell not coming from the dead ones Lyanna held. 

Ned thinks in his fever dream how Lyanna loved the scent of Winter roses... so, the idea Rhaegar might have provided her with oils made from the blooms to bathe with, beauty treatment for her skin or just perfume (rose oil would be potent enough for Ned to notice as he walked in), or she had servants being fresh roses (any kind) to her chambers seems reasonable, or a medicine to reduce the fever and heavy bleeding (something rose has historically be used for), are all possible. Bottom line, Lyanna could have had all three in that room and it would have been more likely to produce the scent than the crown.

Heck, Lyanna could have been making rose potpourri for all I know! 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 4/17/2018 at 5:30 AM, TPTWP Timett said:

but what if she was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome? Promise me Ned and holding some roses are a feeble explanation for a love story. I admit evidence is lacking for this theory as it is for all R+L theories. Stockholm Syndrome would be unheard of to the characters in story, but it could explain why Ned never knew Raegar mistreated his sister thus never thinks poorly of him. I am a R+L=J hater, but I've accepted it and moved on to this what do you think?

From Ned's memories we know that Lyanna was a willful young lady, kind of like Arya. She rides horses, engages in swordplay and does things that would make Cat or Sansa cringe. So she was never someone whom we can consider conventional or gullible. She sees right through Bobby B, even when Ned can't. From what I got from Ned's chapters, Lyanna was never going to marry Robert, regardless of Rhaegar. But Robert being Robert never seems to accept the fact. 

So it's hard to believe that Lyanna was forced to do anything that she didn't want to do. She would have tried to fight off Rhaegar or tried to escape, like Arya, if she was actually kidnapped. In the story, Rhaegar is originally presented as the bad guy, some type of rapist-kidnapper. It's only gradually we learn that Robert's story may not be true. 

And she may not really have run away either. The war starts when Brandon, for some reason. goes to Aerys asking about Lyanna. Not sure why he would do that, given that we know Aerys by that time was suspicious of his own son. 

On 4/17/2018 at 6:34 AM, TPTWP Timett said:

never thought she would be so careless as to run away without anyone knowing if we knew she told one person it would be different. Sure Raegar seems like a better option than Bobby B from the outside. And she may not have known how Robert would react but she had to know how her big brother Brandon would. She basically put her family in harm's way and you're leaving out that there's no proof of marriage so at this point she's a mistress or concubine at best no queen for sure at least until we get more information. Also Lyanna isn't free to marry who she will and stealing one great Lord's daughter and another's fiancee is hardly a way to start a peaceful transition away from his father.

As a Targ, Rhaegar would have been able to marry her as his second wife. Everyone would have known that. They may not have actually run away, putting Lya's family in danger either. What danger would they really be in if Lyanna became Rhaegar's mistress? Absolutely nothing unless something like what Brandon did happened. 

I think Rhaegar thought that if there was any resistance to his marriage to Lyanna, it would come from Dorne, from the relatives of his first wife. It's probably why he takes her there seemingly in a rush, to make peace and tell Doran that Elia's children would be heirs. It seems like a cruel twist of fate that Brandon and Robert would go to war over it. I think by that time Lyanna was actually so over with Robert. 

It should be noted that Stockholm Syndrome isn't really without criticism. It occurs when there's actual physical captivity of some sort, and a constant presence of a kidnapper/hostage taker. Also, I think there should be like kindness from the captor for the victim feel an emotional connection, and also brainwashing. It's also very rare and not properly reported from what I remember from psych class a long time ago. 

On 4/17/2018 at 10:47 AM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

An argument could be made that 13 year old Dany suffered from Stockholm Syndrome, which is why she started to love Drogo after he brutally took every night while she cried into a pillow.

That's doesn't happen. 

 

 

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

16 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

On 4/16/2018 at 10:17 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

after he brutally took every night while she cried into a pillow.

That's doesn't happen. 

 

 

It didn't?

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night... Daenerys III GOT

Then 13 year old Dany has her dragon dreams that give her the strength to endure.

[theMADdestScientist_]

On 21/04/2018 at 11:43 AM, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Brandon, for some reason. goes to Aerys asking about Lyanna.

He didn't went to King's Landing and asked Aerys about Lyanna, Jaime pretty much said that Brandon went to King's Landing and basically demanded the head of the Crown Prince and Aerys's own son before he ever spoke with anyone there. It was quite different.

[Bitterblooms]

So what of Lyanna, caught up in the romance, runs away with Rhaegar and then gets pregnant. Scared, she wants to return home. But now that she has a Little Targaryen growing inside of her, Rhaegar won't let her leave. So while she doesn't start out as a prisoner, she becomes one later. Start at might even feel all tortured and bloody about it but feel it is necessary to preserve the prophecy. 

[Ygrain]

On 21. 4. 2018 at 1:36 PM, Faera said:

Ned thinks in his fever dream how Lyanna loved the scent of Winter roses... 

That's not in the dream, that's a real memory :-)

2 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

So what of Lyanna, caught up in the romance, runs away with Rhaegar and then gets pregnant. Scared, she wants to return home. But now that she has a Little Targaryen growing inside of her, Rhaegar won't let her leave. So while she doesn't start out as a prisoner, she becomes one later. Start at might even feel all tortured and bloody about it but feel it is necessary to preserve the prophecy. 

By the time Lyanna gets pregnant, the Rebellion has broken out. Would it even be possible for her to return? 

[Faera]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's not in the dream, that's a real memory :-)

Oops, actually you're right! That real distinction comes from after he wakes up from the Harrenhal dream in the black cells, doesn't it? Not the fever dream! 

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.
"Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."

That does infer that Lyanna clutched the crown as she died (which I believed anyway) and even that Ned might have smelt winter roses himself. That said, what I really meant is that there is a difference between Ned's most coherent memory when he and Bobby B are in the crypts where he remembers;

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

He doesn't specifically think of "winter roses" but just roses in general. So, if there were no fresh winter roses around for Rhaegar, or a maid, or one of the knights or Lyanna herself to have collected for her room then the scent could have come from some other rose-based product since dead, blackened (very likely dried up) roses would likely give off such a strong smell that Ned would notice it when he walked into the room. Though, going from rose-based product, she could have been using oils to help the crown keep its scent, which would infer it was a precious item to her. Or maybe there really is something magical about winter roses that help them keep their scent.

5 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

So what of Lyanna, caught up in the romance, runs away with Rhaegar and then gets pregnant. Scared, she wants to return home. But now that she has a Little Targaryen growing inside of her, Rhaegar won't let her leave. So while she doesn't start out as a prisoner, she becomes one later. Start at might even feel all tortured and bloody about it but feel it is necessary to preserve the prophecy. 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

By the time Lyanna gets pregnant, the Rebellion has broken out. Would it even be possible for her to return? 

Lyanna may have wished to stay put for a multitude of reasons herself. If she knew she was pregnant, she might have been frightened of what would happen to her or her baby were they to come out of the woodworks at this point. Aerys had already killed her father and brother, Robert probably wouldn't like his betrothed coming back with another man's baby. That's not taking into account that Lyanna might have already been suffering from a disorder of pregnancy that complicated issues.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

Lyanna may have wished to stay put for a multitude of reasons herself. If she knew she was pregnant, she might have been frightened of what would happen to her or her baby were they to come out of the woodworks at this point. Aerys had already killed her father and brother, Robert probably wouldn't like his betrothed coming back with another man's baby. That's not taking into account that Lyanna might have already been suffering from a disorder of pregnancy that complicated issues.

I started wondering if she and the Kingsguard weren't on the move before she went into labor. When Ned arrived at the tower, the three men were already well aware of everything that had happened. They knew Rhaegar had died, they knew King's Landing had been sacked, they knew Aerys and the babies had been killed, they knew Rhaella was on Dragonstone with Viserys. These guys were not cut off from the world or what was happening in it. I personally don't think they remained at the tower while the war was going on. 

The whole thing just feels unreasonable to me that they have all this information and decide to stay at the tower anyway. They cannot defend it. I think they were trying to get out of dodge but Lyanna may not have been able to travel anymore, so they went to the tower because they did not know who they could trust (I'm not talking about Starfall here).  

[Faera]

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I started wondering if she and the Kingsguard weren't on the move before she went into labor. When Ned arrived at the tower, the three men were already well aware of everything that had happened. They knew Rhaegar had died, they knew King's Landing had been sacked, they knew Aerys and the babies had been killed, they knew Rhaella was on Dragonstone with Viserys. These guys were not cut off from the world or what was happening in it. I personally don't think they remained at the tower while the war was going on. 

The whole thing just feels unreasonable to me that they have all this information and decide to stay at the tower anyway. They cannot defend it. I think they were trying to get out of dodge but Lyanna may not have been able to travel anymore, so they went to the tower because they did not know who they could trust (I'm not talking about Starfall here).  

I have often wondered that myself. Given this is a medieval era, too, there is also the confinement period to consider as well. They might have not been keen on moving a heavily pregnant woman and would have had to settle on somewhere in the weeks before Lyanna gave birth anyway.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 4/22/2018 at 0:58 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It didn't?

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night... Daenerys III GOT

Then 13 year old Dany has her dragon dreams that give her the strength to endure.

Ahhh.... I somehow remembered this as Dany getting saddle sores and trying to get used to life as Dothraki. I totally forgot about the part where she decided to kill herself, and her dragon dreams sort of fixing her pain. 

But this doesn't really qualify as Stockholm Syndrome still. Dany adapts to her situation and seem to accept Drogo as he is. It's not a case of Dany being terrified and starts to somehow humanize her captor as a coping mechanism.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

10 hours ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Ahhh.... I somehow remembered this as Dany getting saddle sores and trying to get used to life as Dothraki. I totally forgot about the part where she decided to kill herself, and her dragon dreams sort of fixing her pain. 

But this doesn't really qualify as Stockholm Syndrome still. Dany adapts to her situation and seem to accept Drogo as he is. It's not a case of Dany being terrified and starts to somehow humanize her captor as a coping mechanism.

Like I originally said I believe an argument can be make that it was Stockholm Syndrome. I'm not the first person to make such a statement. It's been discussed in topics on this site and/or others. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.