TPTWP Timett

Lyanna's condition.

28 posts in this topic

The balance of evidence seems to suggest that Lyanna, being a barely mature teenager, ran away the handsome prince Rhaegar as a means of escaping a marriage she was clearly dreading.

That does NOT mean that she was at the Tower of Joy willingly the entire time.  In fact, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that she was kept a prisoner there.  She isn't stupid, she knows that having a kid with Rhaegar ruins her chances at any sort of normal life as would be expected of a woman in her position.  Moreover, we also know she's close to and loyal to her family; it's beyond belief that she'd willingly stay with the man whose father brutally murdered her dad and brother.  Also, consider the circumstances.  She's isolated, in the middle of nowhere, unable/no allowed to contact anyone she knows or who cares about her, and is surrounded by armed guards.  Why is she giving birth in this isolated tower, with no real medical attention?  She's the daughter of one of the most powerful men in the realm, and her baby daddy is the Crown Prince - the kid she's giving birth to is an incredibly important person.  The ONLY reason she's in the ToJ is because her location is being kept a secret.  And the only reason for that is because she's a prisoner.  Why would she risk her life to stay secret - what danger is she in?  Her family will believe she's been kidnapped, so it's not like she has anything to fear there.  All of it points much more strongly to her being an unwilling resident rather than a collaborator, at least by the time Rhaegar leaves for King's Landing.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Mayhaps they were both kidnapped, and Rhaegar only returned to fight the rebels because Aerys was holding his wife and children. Mayhaps we should consider A+L=J.

Mayhaps can go a lot of ways, not that A+L=J isn't as possible as what I speculated about.  I really am not wanting to believe in the perfect prince and his star-crossed love story.

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2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

The balance of evidence seems to suggest that Lyanna, being a barely mature teenager, ran away the handsome prince Rhaegar as a means of escaping a marriage she was clearly dreading.

That does NOT mean that she was at the Tower of Joy willingly the entire time.  In fact, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that she was kept a prisoner there.  She isn't stupid, she knows that having a kid with Rhaegar ruins her chances at any sort of normal life as would be expected of a woman in her position.  Moreover, we also know she's close to and loyal to her family; it's beyond belief that she'd willingly stay with the man whose father brutally murdered her dad and brother.  Also, consider the circumstances.  She's isolated, in the middle of nowhere, unable/no allowed to contact anyone she knows or who cares about her, and is surrounded by armed guards.  Why is she giving birth in this isolated tower, with no real medical attention?  She's the daughter of one of the most powerful men in the realm, and her baby daddy is the Crown Prince - the kid she's giving birth to is an incredibly important person.  The ONLY reason she's in the ToJ is because her location is being kept a secret.  And the only reason for that is because she's a prisoner.  Why would she risk her life to stay secret - what danger is she in?  Her family will believe she's been kidnapped, so it's not like she has anything to fear there.  All of it points much more strongly to her being an unwilling resident rather than a collaborator, at least by the time Rhaegar leaves for King's Landing.

I basically agree with everything you said. I am fully convinced she was held against her will at some point.

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On 4/17/2018 at 0:33 PM, Ygrain said:

Lyanna holding onto roses on her deathbed comes from Ned's memory of her demise in his very first PoV, it has nothing to do with the dream sequence.

I stand corrected! Thanks :)

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2 hours ago, Bitterblooms said:

I stand corrected! Thanks :)

You're welcome :-)

 

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On 4/16/2018 at 7:00 PM, TPTWP Timett said:

Lyanna clutching the winter roses never did sit right with me

And it shouldn't.  

The book only says, generically, that rose petals -- of some sort -- fell from her palm, dead and black.  That they were winter roses is just a pecuiar idea some fans have.  

In fact, they probably were not winter roses, because Ned remembers the room smelling like roses:

Quote

Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. 

...which means there must have been fresh roses in that room.

And obviously if Lyanna was in Dorne at the time Ned found her, then her room contained zero fresh winter roses.

On 4/16/2018 at 7:00 PM, TPTWP Timett said:

I am a R+L=J hater, but I've accepted it

Out of curiosity, why did you accept it?

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2 hours ago, JNR said:

And it shouldn't.  

The book only says, generically, that rose petals -- of some sort -- fell from her palm, dead and black.  That they were winter roses is just a pecuiar idea some fans have.  

In fact, they probably were not winter roses, because Ned remembers the room smelling like roses:

...which means there must have been fresh roses in that room.

And obviously if Lyanna was in Dorne at the time Ned found her, then her room contained zero fresh winter roses.

Out of curiosity, why did you accept it?

I had just finished Game of Thorne's and the Rose's still slipped through the cracks on me. To answer your question I originally suspected it on my first read, but after reading up to Dance I was convinced it was a red herring. I never really believed Ned fathered a bastard so I tried to come up with any alternative until forum member @DorianMartell'sSon beat me over the head with it in my Arthur Dayne +L=J thread

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It never really crossed my mind that Lyanna had Stockholm Syndrome though I suppose it is possible. There's nothing to say she didn't and it's hard for any of us to make a judgement call on how she felt about Rhaegar at the end of her life after all that transpired. I have always been fairly sure she went willingly with Rhaegar though whether she lived to regret her choice in the end is another matter. 

Even as someone who fully believes R+L=J based on my own deductions I'll say there are plenty of questions about her death and state of mind yet to be answered. They might never be answered. We only have Ned's point of view of the situation and he wasn't clear about what Lyanna told him in the end. Even Howland Reed may not have been present for her actual death; Ned never clarifies fully whether he and his sister were completely alone nor can he clearly remember how much time past between Lyanna's death and when Howland took his hand from hers. Whether he literally only walked in after she died or had been standing in the shadows and witnessed the whole thing, we won't know until he turns up. He really is the only named independent source who could clarify what in Ned's memories are factual yet even he won't be able to say for certain what he state of mind was. If she was taken by fever, as Ned states, she might not have had the presence of mind to say anything other than what she wanted Ned to promise her.

As for the presence of roses - that could be several things. My more "out there" guess is that (at the very least) the smell of roses was from some tincture or oils for medicinal purpose, perhaps as treatment for her fever or to reduce her bleeding; we cannot rule out the possibility that the smell of roses was coming from something other than the ones she was holding. Heck, maybe she had a maid who brought her fresh roses to cheer her up!  Even if they were indeed the dried remains of the rose crown Rhaegar gave her then she could have been holding them out of sorrow over his death, crushing them in her fists in anger or wistfully longing to return to that moment and do things a little differently.

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