Mance Rayder violated guest rights!

[Bowen Marsh]

8 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, Jon expects Mance to find Arya already fled from Ramsay, making her way North... A grey girl on a dying horse. 

Even then, you've still got the question of whether Jon is responsible for another's actions in this way. Jon didn't order Mance to do what he did, and clearly had no idea that Mance was going to go to Winterfell and be in a position to break Guest Right. And that's not even getting to the question of whether the Bolton's have any claim to the laws of hospitality, as Winterfell is not rightfully theirs, and Arya is a fake. 

That's a sorry excuse.  If you let your dogs out into the neighborhood to relieve themselves and they piss on the neighbor's car, yeah, it's your fault.  Jon send Mance to get his sister.  He didn't say, "Mance get her only if she's out in the snows, but don't go inside Winterfell."  Jon had to know and the fact that he sent for the free folk women is proof that he knew it may take Mance going to Winterfell to get Arya because Ramsay may get to her first and bring her back to the castle.  Mance entertained Jon with an interesting story while they were on the other side of the wall.  He told of his secret visit to Winterfell while Robert was there.  Jon knew that if any man has the skill set to get into Winterfell and get back out it is Mance Rayder.  

There was no need to pretend if they only needed to lead Arya to the wall.  Why all the trouble to recruit the girls just to find Arya in the snows.  No reason at all.  Jon had to know that it may require going inside Winterfell to get his sister.  Yeah, you bet Jon is at least partly to blame for the crimes committed by Mance.

By the right of conquest, yeah, Winterfell belongs to the Boltons.  They have the legal right because the Lannisters beat the hell out of the Starks.  To me, it doesn't have to do with the Boltons getting the better of the Starks.  What is more important, the Lannisters won their war with the Starks.  The Lannisters made Roose the new warden and the new paramount lord of the north.  Just the act of setting Mance Rayder loose on the north is treason for a NW lord commander to do.  Jon will be an unpopular fellow should that ever become known in the north.

[Clegane'sPup]

4 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon send Mance to get his sister.

Nope, he dinna do dat.

I have yet to ascertain who is the most simpleminded ----- me for responding or you for sharing.

 

[Bowen Marsh]

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Nope, he dinna do dat.

I have yet to ascertain who is the most simpleminded ----- me for responding or you for sharing.

 

Definitely you, because Mance Rayder did not go to the trouble (and the danger) of rescuing the girl just for shits and giggles.  Jon sent Mance to get his sister.  Mance was following Jon's orders.  Was Dolorous Edd acting on his own when he brought the free folk girls back to the wall?  No.  He did because Jon told him to.  

[Clegane'sPup]

1 minute ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Definitely you, because Mance Rayder did not go to the trouble (and the danger) of rescuing Arya just for shits and giggles.  Jon sent Mance to get his sister.  

Har de har har. I agree Mance did not go through the trouble for shits and giggles.

Jon did not send Mance to WF.

[Darth Sidious]

There's no way out of this guilt for Jon.  Mance Rayder was working for Jon.   He was too worried about Arya and this we know from his chapters.  He worried Arya might resist the other bastard and get punished for it. 

[Darth Sidious]

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The fact that Mance carried out his mission is proof that he was working for Jon all throughout his time inside Winterfell.

That was a lot of risk to take.  I'm guessing one of the wildlings got flayed for their troubles.  Mance was not at Winterfell by accident.  He was there to get Arya and that is an act of war.

[Nowy Tends]

50 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Dear Sir,

This is one of the reasons why I stabbed that bonehead.  He started a feud with Lord Ramsay and put all of us in danger.  To make matters worse, he was about to lead the wildlings to attack Roose Bolton.  

Be at ease sir.  It is my intention to send proof of his death to the Boltons and assure them that we have taken care of our internal problems.   Let Ramsay know that our crazed lord commander was the one who ordered the wildlings to take his wife and not any other member of the Watch.  It was Jon,who was responsible for Mance Rayder being in Winterfell.  

Sincerely,

Bowen Marsh

Now that's a pathetic attempt of humour. You must be fun at parties.

[Nowy Tends]

18 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

  He was there to get Arya and that is an act of war.

  this is so ridiculous

[Clegane'sPup]

21 minutes ago, Agent Orange said:

He was there to get Arya and that is an act of war.

Yeah, but why Orange, did Mance go to WF when the story is that he is to rescue a girl near Long Lake?

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Yeah, but why Orange, did Mance go to WF when the story is that he is to rescue a girl near Long Lake?

This is Stannis giving a care for Jon's sister.

Quote

I will save your sister if I can, and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. You and your brothers must hold the Wall until I can return.

 

Aand this is one of Abel's women

Quote

 

"Why not Theon the Clever? It was a daring feat, the way we heard it. How many men did you have? A hundred? Fifty?"

Fewer. "It was madness."

"Glorious madness. Stannis has five thousand, they say, but Abel claims ten times as many still could not breach these walls. So how did you get in, m'lord? Did you have some secret way?"

I wonder how Theon taking Winterfell relates to saving Arya... Perhaps it doesn't and they only saved her because they could?

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Definitely you, because Mance Rayder did not go to the trouble (and the danger) of rescuing the girl just for shits and giggles.  Jon sent Mance to get his sister.  Mance was following Jon's orders.  Was Dolorous Edd acting on his own when he brought the free folk girls back to the wall?  No.  He did because Jon told him to.  

Yeah Jon told him. Jon told him to because Mance asked for them. In fact the part in which he asks for them has been posted up thread and Mance actually says he wants the spearwives because it will make Arya more inclined to trust him. Since Mance didn't even attempt to rescue the girl at Long Lake, he and Mel (and possibly Stannis) have some other agenda in Winterfell. But that doesn't equate to Jon breaking guest right. You know why? Because Jon was not Bolton's guest. You know why else? No one in Winterfell has been given food by the host. So no one in Winterfell is protected anyway.

[Reekazoid]

On ‎4‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 6:41 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

 Mance traveled under an alias, but he did actually sing and entertain, so that wasn't a lie.

 And as stated above, they ate Lord Manderly's food, not Lord Bolton's. Manderly is an enthusiastic student of the game, and careful with things like  giving guest gifts to the Freys at parting from White Harbor.  

He  knew exactly what he was doing, and I believe  Mance picked up on it right away and saw opportunity.  Besides feeding Mance's party, It was even Lord M. who was calling for songs at the wedding feast, so one could even argue that Mance was  in  Manderly's employ and thus under his protection.

Lord Manderly was so drunk he required four strong men to help him from the hall. "We should have a song about the Rat Cook," he was muttering, as he staggered past Theon, leaning on his knights. "Singer, give us a song about the Rat Cook."

ADwD - The Prince of Winterfell

 

Lord M.  is even broadcasting the fact that guest right is not realized established... to Mance!  (And yes of course alluding to the  Red Wedding  )

 

 

 Mance was an accomplished, self-made man- quite formidable, really.  He was a king, poet, diplomat, freeman,   kneeler,  warrior, and spy. Do we honestly believe  such a man  would flout something as fundamental  to all his cultures as guest rights?

[Unacosamedarisa]

9 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Jon send Mance to get his sister. 

Yes, but not from Winterfell, as has been said repeatedly. Jon expected Mance to find the grey girl on the dying horse already coming North. He had no notion Mance would go all the way to Winterfell. That's why he never thinks "what are you doing at Winterfell, Mance?", but does think "where the fuck is Mance Rayder?". 

And even though Jon let Mance loose on the North, it doesn't make Jon responsible for everything Mance does. You can use this idea of indirect guilt to argue that, for example, Robb or Tywin are guilty of every crime committed by their armies, or that Arya is guilty for what Rorge and Biter do after being freed from the wagon. 

[Kandrax]

3 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Tywin are guilty of every crime committed by their armies,

Since he was aware what kind of man Gregor was, he is responsible for his crimes.

[Tagganaro]

9 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Yeah Jon told him. Jon told him to because Mance asked for them. In fact the part in which he asks for them has been posted up thread and Mance actually says he wants the spearwives because it will make Arya more inclined to trust him. Since Mance didn't even attempt to rescue the girl at Long Lake, he and Mel (and possibly Stannis) have some other agenda in Winterfell. But that doesn't equate to Jon breaking guest right. You know why? Because Jon was not Bolton's guest. You know why else? No one in Winterfell has been given food by the host. So no one in Winterfell is protected anyway.

Well, Mance does also mention that he has a "certain ploy" he intends to carry out separate from his Arya rescue mission in front of Jon.  Sadly there is no follow-up from Jon, who probably is not really paying much attention to what "Rattleshirt" is saying since he has so little respect for him and isn't entertaining the idea of allowing Rattleshirt loose yet.

5 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Yes, but not from Winterfell, as has been said repeatedly. Jon expected Mance to find the grey girl on the dying horse already coming North. He had no notion Mance would go all the way to Winterfell. That's why he never thinks "what are you doing at Winterfell, Mance?", but does think "where the fuck is Mance Rayder?". 

And even though Jon let Mance loose on the North, it doesn't make Jon responsible for everything Mance does. You can use this idea of indirect guilt to argue that, for example, Robb or Tywin are guilty of every crime committed by their armies, or that Arya is guilty for what Rorge and Biter do after being freed from the wagon. 

Not that I disagree at all, but this debate always makes me laugh despite seeing it 1000 times.  So you want to make Jon responsible for Mance's actions...fine I guess.  So what?  Are we really sitting here going that evil bastard Jon tried to prevent Ramsay Bolton from repeatedly raping and brutalizing this poor innocent girl?  I would think most could agree that Jon's decision to allow Mance to leave the Wall resulted in Jeyne/"Arya" being freed from Ramsay and will cause some trouble for the Boltons going forward...that's a good thing isn't it?  Do these Jon haters read Lord of the Rings and hate on the Fellowship for attempting to steal poor Sauron's property and destroy it?

[Adam Yozza]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

Well, Mance does also mention that he has a "certain ploy" he intends to carry out separate from his Arya rescue mission in front of Jon.  Sadly there is no follow-up from Jon, who probably is not really paying much attention to what "Rattleshirt" is saying since he has so little respect for him and isn't entertaining the idea of allowing Rattleshirt loose yet.

Not that I disagree at all, but this debate always makes me laugh despite seeing it 1000 times.  So you want to make Jon responsible for Mance's actions...fine I guess.  So what?  Are we really sitting here going that evil bastard Jon tried to prevent Ramsay Bolton from repeatedly raping and brutalizing this poor innocent girl?  I would think most could agree that Jon's decision to allow Mance to leave the Wall resulted in Jeyne/"Arya" being freed from Ramsay and will cause some trouble for the Boltons going forward...that's a good thing isn't it?  Do these Jon haters read Lord of the Rings and hate on the Fellowship for attempting to steal poor Sauron's property and destroy it?

Yeah the certain ploy always made me wonder why Jon doesn't say anything about it. The fact that he never once thinks of it again and consistently wonders where Mance is I'm willing to bet that you're right and that he just wasn't paying close enough attention to Mance/Rattleshirt at the time.

As to the bolded, it wouldn't suprise me if they did. They claim that somehow it was illegal for Theon and the spearwives to remove Jeyne from Winterfell, ignoring the fact that she made the choice to leave and that she isn't actually married to Ramsay at all, so at this point, nothing the Stark Haters and Bolton-Frey Apologists say really suprises me.

[The Sunland Lord]

Ramsay and Roose are usurpers. They are not at home. Therefore, they can't host any guests beneath the roof of Winterfell, since it's not theirs. Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya have bigger claim than the Boltons. 

The Boltons are wrong peoples, on a wrong place in a wrong time.

[Clegane'sPup]

10 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I wonder how Theon taking Winterfell relates to saving Arya... Perhaps it doesn't and they only saved her because they could?

I would guess that Mance is collecting information. If Theon could get into WF without attracting attention perhaps Mance could get out the same way. Oh, I think getting Jeyne/Arya out of WF is verra important for multiple reasons.

Now forgive me while I flap my trap about other stuff

 

Below is the letter LC Snow received.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI          Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand.

The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb.

Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber.

"Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.     Jon saw no reason not to tell him.

"Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad.

Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father.

Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you … unwell? You seem …"     "He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister."     End.

 

The newly appointed Warden of the North has summoned, not requested all leal lords to affirm their loyalty to the IT and celebrate the wedding.  Add insult injury, Roose wed a Frey before the RW and he brought an army of Frey’s with him upon his return to the North.

Roose moves the wedding to WF. The wedding is to exert his hold over the North and to deal with Stannis.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III      "Even ruined and broken, Winterfell remains Lady Arya's home. What better place to wed her, bed her, and stake your claim? That is only half of it, however. We would be fools to march on Stannis. Let Stannis march on us. He is too cautious to come to Barrowton … but he must come to Winterfell. His clansmen will not abandon the daughter of their precious Ned to such as you. Stannis must march or lose them … and being the careful commander that he is, he will summon all his friends and allies when he marches. He will summon Arnolf Karstark."    Ramsay licked his chapped lips. "And we'll have him."/

Roose, the Warden, is not claiming WF. Ramsey through Jeyne/Arya is claiming WF. The leal lords were told to bring hostages with them.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III      "Forty wayns full of foodstuffs. Casks of wine and hippocras, barrels of fresh-caught lampreys, a herd of goats, a hundred pigs, crates of crabs and oysters, a monstrous codfish … Lord Wyman likes to eat. You may have noticed."      "What I noticed was that he brought no hostages."      "I noticed that as well."/

This WF situation is not about guest right. It is a hostile environment. Roose knows that. Ramsey did not say, "My guests. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table." Roose did not say, “My fellow northmen, come let us put our differences aside and let us rejoice.” No, he summoned them. With Tywin dead Roose is on his own. The little rebellion hasn't been squashed yet.

 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 4/17/2018 at 7:41 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

The Snowman fucked up badly.  Jon is one of the tragic people in the story.  He had a chance to unite the Watch and the Wildlings.  Instead he fucked up because he chose to rescue his sister from a bad marriage.  I knew it was going to be end tragically because he was wrong from the beginning, the girl was not his sister.  Mel was wrong too.  Jon threw away his chance to build a strong defense for the sake of his sister.  He failed at his job and paid for it with his life.  Sadly, many people will end up dying for Jon's mistake.  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

6 hours ago, Kandrax said:

Since he was aware what kind of man Gregor was, he is responsible for his crimes.

Jon was also aware of the kind of man Mance Rayder is.  Hell, he knew the wildling deserted the wall and fought against the Nights Watch.  Jon is responsible for siccing his wildlings against a noble house of the kingdom.  Which is a crime for a lord commander.