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Mance Rayder violated guest rights!


Wolf's Bane

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8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm guessing you didn't agree with my guess. What say you tell me why you think Mance was interested in how Theon took WF. Thanks.

Oh it is quite possible they ask for an escape route but question isn't "How did you get in?"

It is "How did you capture Winterfell with fewer than 50 men?  Abel says 50000 men may not be enough how did you get in?"

Sorry I'm on phone and can't provide full quote but search for " how you captured winterfell"

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11 hours ago, Kandrax said:

So Freys are safe of wrath of gods.

For the record I think there's a lot more serious cases of "sin" running around that the "gods" should deal with first, if they are indeed concerning themselves with such matters.

What about the Slavers in Slavers Bay? The Mountain? Vargo Hoat? The world is full of examples of horrible people who do waaaaay worse things than saving a girl from her rapist husband. Those people are/were left alone for decades or centuries to follow their crimes and perversions. And in all cases they were put to an end by people not by "gods" 
What about those that are still at large; Euron, the Dothraki, Quyburn. Why aren't the gods doing anything there?

So are the Freys safe from the wrath of "gods"? Probably. Just like in the real world Zeus didn't actually move to strike down every Ancient Greek who violated "Xenia"
Safe from the wrath of Lady Stoneheart or those Northerners that still hold to the Starks? Nope.
Who will care enough to avenge the Boltons, though?

And that's the thing if you insist that there's micro-interventionist "gods" in Westeros that go around punishing "sins". Who says the gods didn't act through Mance to punish Ramsay?  Because what he did to Jeyne was not covered under a husband's rights, even more so sicne he married her under false pretenses.

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14 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

For the record I think there's a lot more serious cases of "sin" running around that the "gods" should deal with first, if they are indeed concerning themselves with such matters.

What about the Slavers in Slavers Bay? The Mountain? Vargo Hoat? The world is full of examples of horrible people who do waaaaay worse things than saving a girl from her rapist husband. Those people are/were left alone for decades or centuries to follow their crimes and perversions. And in all cases they were put to an end by people not by "gods" 
What about those that are still at large; Euron, the Dothraki, Quyburn. Why aren't the gods doing anything there?

So are the Freys safe from the wrath of "gods"? Probably. Just like in the real world Zeus didn't actually move to strike down every Ancient Greek who violated "Xenia"
Safe from the wrath of Lady Stoneheart or those Northerners that still hold to the Starks? Nope.
Who will care enough to avenge the Boltons, though?

And that's the thing if you insist that there's micro-interventionist "gods" in Westeros that go around punishing "sins". Who says the gods didn't act through Mance to punish Ramsay?  Because what he did to Jeyne was not covered under a husband's rights, even more so sicne he married her under false pretenses.

It is true that there are more serious crimes which gods should punish. But from Westerosi viewpoint, even if your father is like Ramsay or Rorge or worse, if you kill him, you would be considered bigger sinner than him.

Vargo and Gregor are already punished.

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41 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

But from Westerosi viewpoint, even if your father is like Ramsay or Rorge or worse, if you kill him, you would be considered bigger sinner than him.

And did you just miss how the story frequently points out that there might be some errors with that line of thinking?

 

Quote

Vargo and Gregor are already punished.

And was it the gods coming down from above or out of the weirwood trees to smite them with their righteous power? Or were they killed by people? Because in the version I read Vrgo was killed by Gregor and Gregor by Oberyn, not by the Warriors sword or the Father's stern gaze.
And why would the gods take so many years to punish them? They're bloody gods they can do things whenever they want.

And if you claim they act through people, then show me the evidence that the liberation of Jeyne Pool by Mance wasn't the "gods" punishing Ramsay, who's a murderer, rapist, oath breaker, kinslayer...

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

And was it the gods coming down from above or out of the weirwood trees to smite them with their righteous power? Or were they killed by people? Because in the version I read Vrgo was killed by Gregor and Gregor by Oberyn, not by the Warriors sword or the Father's stern gaze.

This is all true enough, but couldn't you argue that in Vargo's case, the bite that Brienne took out of his ear was the beginning of the end for him? Brienne can easily be the representation of two of the Seven Faces, the Maiden and the Warrior.

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6 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

This is all true enough, but couldn't you argue that in Vargo's case, the bite that Brienne took out of his ear was the beginning of the end for him? Brienne can easily be the representation of two of the Seven Faces, the Maiden and the Warrior.

Aside form all the flaws of an idea like that:
But that's the problem, the moment we accept the theory that the Seven work through human proxies, then we can't be sure anymore which actions are taken in their service and which are not.
The Maiden is associated with virgins and singers. Maybe she sent Mance, a singer, to avenge and save Jeyne Pool (who until recently was a maiden) And actions in service of the gods couldn't be sins,now could they?

So using that argument to expect divine wrath to rain down upon Mance/Jon/Mel for breaking the guest rights agains those "poor innocent widdle Boltons" (even if they had broken it) is basically useless.

The Guest Right isn't so highly regarded because "the gods say so", but because it was an important custom that allowed violent societies (such as the Westerosi one) to function (and it was still broken often enough).
And since society in the North and the Riverlands has all but collapsed anyway, well...  

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20 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't know. He has been losing sons and grandsons lately. 

There are so many of them that their favorite parlor game is charting who has to die so that they can advance in the  progression of who takes over when Lord Walder dies. They probably just mark off the ones that are hanged and move up one position. 

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14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Oh it is quite possible they ask for an escape route but question isn't "How did you get in?"

It is "How did you capture Winterfell with fewer than 50 men?  Abel says 50000 men may not be enough how did you get in?"

Sorry I'm on phone and can't provide full quote but search for " how you captured winterfell"

It was easy to dig up the quote. The broad even says “they are not my sisters.” I didn't see the 50000 men, so you are going to have to help me out.

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak    "      They're not my sisters neither, but they're sweet." The woman leaned close. Her breath smelled of wine. "If you have no smile for me, tell me how you captured Winterfell. Abel will put it in a song, and you will live forever."     "As a betrayer. As Theon Turncloak."/

This is where the long wait for the book WoW comes into play.  Mance asked for six young, pretty spearwives.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII       "Young ones, and pretty," Mance had said. The unburnt king supplied some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole's Town./

According to Theon, when Mance turned up at the gates of WF, Mance had two sisters, two daughters, a wife and his old mother with him. The description doesn’t match six young pretty spearwives.

A Dance with Dragons -    The Prince of Winterfell      . Lord Manderly had brought musicians from White Harbor, but none were singers, so when Abel turned up at the gates with a lute and six women, he had been made welcome. "Two sisters, two daughters, one wife, and my old mother," the singer claimed, though not one looked like him. "Some dance, some sing, one plays the pipe and one the drums. Good washerwomen too."/

It is true the broad in the Turncloak chapter asks, “Tell me how you captured WF.” Theon doesn’t tell her. The author tells the reader how Theon took WF,” I had ropes, Theon thought. I had grapnels. I had darkness on my side, and surprise. The castle was but lightly held, and I took them unawares.

In the below chapter one of Mance’s spearwives wants Theon to show her the crypts.

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell       "What do you want?"    "To see these crypts. Where are they, m'lord? Would you show me?"

The women have been asking Theon multiple questions. Then there is a little tidbit at the end of Ghost of WF about Mance waiting to meet with Theon.

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell       You want to die as Theon? We'll give you that. A nice quick death, 'twill hardly hurt at all." She smiled. "But not till you've sung for Abel. He's waiting for you."

It is revealed in Theon I that Theon did indeed meet with Mance. Where they met is described below.

A Dance with Dragons - Theon I       The jape is on you, Abel, you and your murdering whores. You'll die for the wrong girl.      He had come this close to telling them the truth when Rowan had delivered him to Abel in the ruins of the Burned Tower, but at the last instant he had held his tongue.

I have ask myself, is Mance wanting to know how to get someone (which can mean himself)  out or is he wanting to know how to get someone in.

What say there is a grand northern conspiracy and the little northern rebellion is not over? Get Jeyne/Arya out of WF and the northern lords are free to do what they will.

 

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On 4/17/2018 at 7:41 AM, Wolf's Bane said:

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

Jon Snow and Mellissandre convinced Mance Rayder to steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.

Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).

Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.  They murdered the Bolton serving men.  

They remove fArya from Winterfell, from her husband.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights.  That makes Mel and Jon indirectly guilt to the breaking of guest rights.

 

:agree:

On 4/17/2018 at 9:03 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

It was a violation of guest rights.  Mance Rayder and the women with him are guilty.  Now, they were acting on Jon's orders to go get his sister.  Whether you can blame Jon indirectly depends on a couple of factors.  Can we hold Tywin responsible for Gregor's murder of Princess Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon?  Gregor was acting under Tywin's command.  I think so.  Therefore, Jon has to take part of the blame because it was him who released Mance and sent him on this mission.  Mance would not be at Winterfell if it were not for Jon's orders to fetch his sister.  Yeah, it is a violation of guest rights and Mance is guilty.  Jon Snow is partly to blame because he sent Mance.  

 

Winterfell no longer belongs to the Starks, if you believe in the right of conquest.  

It has nothing to do with decency.  It has to do with laws and customs.  Robb is an oathbreaker and offended the Freys.  Did that make it alright for the Freys to violate guest rights?  

 

:agree:

Jon was on the wrong here.  He should not have even tried to rescue Arya.  It all snowballed from there and things got out of hand.  Even Jon knew that the watch takes no part,  If one of his own men expressed interest in helping a family in the same situation, he would have said it was no longer their concern.  Arya was no longer Jon's business and he should have kept it that way.

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On 4/20/2018 at 7:01 AM, Kandrax said:

Gods, old and new.

 

Divine retribution we fall upon a sinner.

The only god that has shown any power at all is Red Raloo, and that's through his priests. Thoros can resurrect the dead, Moqorro gives Victarion a bionic arm, and Melisandre can see true visions through her flames and make shadowbabies. These things can be ascribed to magic rather than godly power.

The Seven never protect their clergy from depredations, rape, murder, etc and never punish the evildoers. The Drowned God? Yeah, right. What does he ever do? 

Martin is an atheist/agnostic. He doesn't give gods powers in these books.

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13 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

For the record I think there's a lot more serious cases of "sin" running around that the "gods" should deal with first, if they are indeed concerning themselves with such matters.

What about the Slavers in Slavers Bay? The Mountain? Vargo Hoat? The world is full of examples of horrible people who do waaaaay worse things than saving a girl from her rapist husband. Those people are/were left alone for decades or centuries to follow their crimes and perversions. And in all cases they were put to an end by people not by "gods" 
What about those that are still at large; Euron, the Dothraki, Quyburn. Why aren't the gods doing anything there?

So are the Freys safe from the wrath of "gods"? Probably. Just like in the real world Zeus didn't actually move to strike down every Ancient Greek who violated "Xenia"
Safe from the wrath of Lady Stoneheart or those Northerners that still hold to the Starks? Nope.
Who will care enough to avenge the Boltons, though?

And that's the thing if you insist that there's micro-interventionist "gods" in Westeros that go around punishing "sins". Who says the gods didn't act through Mance to punish Ramsay?  Because what he did to Jeyne was not covered under a husband's rights, even more so sicne he married her under false pretenses.

Well, the problem is, most people are not the lord commander of an order whose mission is to stay neutral and protect the realm of man from the Others.  The N/W has to maintain its distance from the political affairs of the realm in order to do its job.  The men of the watch must forget the families they left behind.  And along with leaving their families behind, they leave prejudices, bias, family alliances, and old feuds aside.  A dairy farmer who puts the safety of his sister over the welfare of the realm is being unethical.  A lord commander of the N/W who does something as shockingly stupid as Jon did to rescue his sister is guilty of far more, it's treason.  One can hardly blame Bowen for doing what he did to stop Jon from escalating the problem.

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This isn't even an issue. Guest right isn't tied to the question whether the dude in whose house or castle or camp you hang out actually rightfully owns those places - you go to a person, eat their stuff, drink their stuff, sleep at places where they are in charge, and thus you are obliged to not betray the trust they put in you - just as you have every reason to expect and demand that they don't betray you.

That is also the reason why the Red Wedding is as ugly as it is - Walder and Roose had long abandoned the cause of the false king, pretender, and traitor Robb Stark, yet it was still a heinous crime to pretend they were still friends and allies, lure the boy into a trap, and then butcher him while he was defenseless.

Guest right doesn't care whether you are friends or foes. It stipulates that you cannot do anything against each while - never mind how much you want - while you are protected by guest right.

And considering that Roose, Ramsay, and their allies pampered and fed 'Abel' and his women, allowing them to earn a living at Winterfell, it is quite clear that they broke guest right when they murdered Roose's men and tried to abduct Ramsay's wife.

By the way, Tom Seven is also breaking guest right if he ends up informing Catelyn on the movements and weak spots of Riverrun under Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister. If the man participates in the retaking of Riverrun and is also involved in the (likely very cruel) murders of Emmon and Genna, he'll be as bad - or nearly as bad - as many of the Freys who played their (small) part in the Red Wedding.

The man has been invited to spend the winter at Riverrun, and he'll likely be eat more than once under the roofs of Riverrun before the castle is retaken by Catelyn.

But not everybody fooling someone - or killing someone he hangs out with - breaks guest right. You actually have to be somebody's guest to do this. If you just sneak into a castle unseen you are not breaking guest right. Dany didn't break guest right, either, in Astapor. For one, because no such thing seems to exist in Essos, anyway. But even if it did - she wasn't a guest of the masters, merely a customer, and they were enacting a business transaction, they weren't friends nor allies. It was still a betrayal, of course, but not breaking guest right.

Maegor likely brought guest right when he butchered all the men working on the Red Keep - he invited them to a huge banquet and then butchered them while they were defenseless.

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@Lord Varys, gimme one example where "Abel" & the spearwives were pampered. I mean, pampered? Seriously? 

And the better question, are you gonna join the "Jon broke guest right too" crew? Because w/ Mance I can see how it's (deliberately) left blurry by Martin. But to claim Jon did too is perfectly hilarious. 

I'll say I don't think Mance broke it, tbh. Same as Tom of Sevenstreams. I'm not sure a paid performer would fall into the guest category. There's also the fact that Manderly (& others?) supplied the food, although it's unlikely that the Boltons didn't provide any foodstuffs at all. 

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It was easy to dig up the quote. The broad even says “they are not my sisters.” I didn't see the 50000 men, so you are going to have to help me out.

A Dance with Dragons - The Turncloak    "      They're not my sisters neither, but they're sweet." The woman leaned close. Her breath smelled of wine. "If you have no smile for me, tell me how you captured Winterfell. Abel will put it in a song, and you will live forever."     "As a betrayer. As Theon Turncloak."/

This is where the long wait for the book WoW comes into play.  Mance asked for six young, pretty spearwives.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII       "Young ones, and pretty," Mance had said. The unburnt king supplied some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole's Town./

According to Theon, when Mance turned up at the gates of WF, Mance had two sisters, two daughters, a wife and his old mother with him. The description doesn’t match six young pretty spearwives.

 

A Dance with Dragons -    The Prince of Winterfell      . Lord Manderly had brought musicians from White Harbor, but none were singers, so when Abel turned up at the gates with a lute and six women, he had been made welcome. "Two sisters, two daughters, one wife, and my old mother," the singer claimed, though not one looked like him. "Some dance, some sing, one plays the pipe and one the drums. Good washerwomen too."/

It is true the broad in the Turncloak chapter asks, “Tell me how you captured WF.” Theon doesn’t tell her. The author tells the reader how Theon took WF,” I had ropes, Theon thought. I had grapnels. I had darkness on my side, and surprise. The castle was but lightly held, and I took them unawares.

In the below chapter one of Mance’s spearwives wants Theon to show her the crypts.

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell       "What do you want?"    "To see these crypts. Where are they, m'lord? Would you show me?"

The women have been asking Theon multiple questions. Then there is a little tidbit at the end of Ghost of WF about Mance waiting to meet with Theon.

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell       You want to die as Theon? We'll give you that. A nice quick death, 'twill hardly hurt at all." She smiled. "But not till you've sung for Abel. He's waiting for you."

It is revealed in Theon I that Theon did indeed meet with Mance. Where they met is described below.

A Dance with Dragons - Theon I       The jape is on you, Abel, you and your murdering whores. You'll die for the wrong girl.      He had come this close to telling them the truth when Rowan had delivered him to Abel in the ruins of the Burned Tower, but at the last instant he had held his tongue.

 

I have ask myself, is Mance wanting to know how to get someone (which can mean himself)  out or is he wanting to know how to get someone in.

What say there is a grand northern conspiracy and the little northern rebellion is not over? Get Jeyne/Arya out of WF and the northern lords are free to do what they will.

 

Just a few pharagraphs below that is this

Quote
Fewer. "It was madness."
"Glorious madness. Stannis has five thousand, they say, but Abel claims ten times as many still could not breach these walls. So how did you get in, m'lord? Did you have some secret way?"
I had ropes, Theon thought. I had grapnels. I had darkness on my side, and surprise. The castle was but lightly held, and I took them unawares. But he said none of that. If Abel made a song about him, like as not Ramsay would prick his eardrums to make certain that he never heard it.

Unfortunately search site provides only three paragraphs at a time.

Asking about the crypts could be because of something hidden there as theorized by people here, or it could be Mance suspects of a secret underground passage like the one Gendel and Gorne used. I think latter is the simpler explanation between the two.

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51 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Unfortunately search site provides only three paragraphs at a time.

True. Leaving the individual to look at the context in the chapter.

51 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Asking about the crypts could be because of something hidden there as theorized by people here, or it could be Mance suspects of a secret underground passage like the one Gendel and Gorne used. I think latter is the simpler explanation between the two.

Okay, I can accept that.

51 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Stannis has five thousand, they say, but Abel claims ten times as many still could not breach these walls. So how did you get in, m'lord? Did you have some secret way?"

You dunna think that the broad is embellishing stuff and pumping Theon for info?

51 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Asking about the crypts could be because of something hidden there as theorized by people here, or it could be Mance suspects of a secret underground passage like the one Gendel and Gorne used. I think latter is the simpler explanation between the two.

Me and you seem to me missing the communication meld. What is it you and I are trying to ascertain. I forgot.

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9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Lord Varys, gimme one example where "Abel" & the spearwives were pampered. I mean, pampered? Seriously?

Considering that they are all savages from beyond the Wall who don't even know how to build in stone they qualify as being pampered simply because they were permitted to live in a castle for a time.

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And the better question, are you gonna join the "Jon broke guest right too" crew? Because w/ Mance I can see how it's (deliberately) left blurry by Martin. But to claim Jon did too is perfectly hilarious. 

Why should I claim Jon broke guest right when he wasn't there? It would be like claiming Tywin broke guest right at the Red Wedding. If you aren't there you cannot do anything. Even if Tywin commanded Roose and Walder to kill Robb at the Twins - which he did not - he would still not have broken guest right because Robb never was his guest nor was he there. The people breaking guest right were the Freys and Boltons who did the deed.

But Jon is certainly behind Mance's mission and in that sense as responsible for the Red Wedding as Tywin is - we know Tywin just wanted Walder/Roose to murder Robb. He did not want them to butcher the entire Northern/Riverlords army at the Twins, nor did he command them to break guest right to go through with the plan. Just as Jon wanted Mance to save his little sister. Mance tried to please his master, just as Roose and Walder tried to please their masters - Tywin and Joffrey.

In that sense Tywin is responsible for the whole thing because Roose and Walder were his men.

Just as Mance was Jon's man. After all, he says so himself, does he not?

But that isn't the same as breaking guest right.

The idea that Manderly bringing in the Frey pies (and other food) somehow frees Mance from his responsibilities is hilarious. Wyman the Cannibal broke guest right, too, you know by serving his host (and the Freys and the other guest) human flesh from people who were actually kin (by marriage) to the groom as well as many of the guests. That's just a very ugly thing - and Wyman actually knows what a rotten person he is considering that he actually asks 'Abel' sing the song about the Rat Cook again and again - this is a story both about cannibalism and the breaking of guest right, and Wyman did both. He'll pay for that. And he knows it.

Killing the Freys was one thing - he didn't break guest right then, although he definitely betrayed their trust - but serving them at Winterfell to their own kin definitely crossed a line you better do not cross. This will have consequences.

Or do you think feeding your host and people their own kinsmen at a wedding isn't both a crime and something neither host nor guest should do to each other?

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I'll say I don't think Mance broke it, tbh. Same as Tom of Sevenstreams. I'm not sure a paid performer would fall into the guest category. There's also the fact that Manderly (& others?) supplied the food, although it's unlikely that the Boltons didn't provide any foodstuffs at all. 

LOL, that doesn't make any sense. And that's not a routine on mine here, but actually pretty obvious. Do you think a servant, employee, worker, knight, etc. in the service of a lord is given a loophole a fellow nobleman who is welcomed as a guest in some ritual? Lords and kings should be as wary that the common people they host for a time - during a wedding, say - behave and don't murder them as they are that their powerful friends, rivals, allies, and enemies don't use such opportunities to kill them.

Or do you think Dunk & Egg - and Kyle the Cat, Uthor Underleaf, the dwarf performers, etc. - are not bound by the custom of guest right (to the degree it is upheld in the south) from the moment they were welcomed as guests at Whitewalls (and got their first food)? Do you think it is okay to just go into a man's house, sniff around in his bedchamber, handle his dragon egg

I don't think so.

Those people are not proper guests, the way other noblemen of equal rank are. But they still are guests in the sense that they are not allowed to do anything against their better who throw them some bones from their tables.

A person working for another would be even more obliged to not betray the trust of that person. The bond between such people is stronger, not weaker, than guest right - but it of course also extends to them while they are guests and hosts. We see that in TSS when Dunk argues that he still owes Ser Eustace service because he ate some of his chickens that morning. As a sworn sword you are both an employee and guest when you are sleeping in a man's house, tower, keep, castle, etc.

'Abel' clearly is Roose/Ramsay's guest, there is no way around them. He eats from the same table as all the other men in the hall. And the same goes for Tom. His behavior - as well as the behavior of all the whores and other buddies of the outlaws luring Freys into traps - is pretty much as deplorable as the behavior of Roose and Walder. Tom isn't only the guest/singer of Genna and Emmon at the end of AFfC, he was also the guest of Ryman Frey and Daven Lannister (and Jaime) earlier, while he hung out in the Frey camp. Any person being allowed to live and work in an army camp is a guest there. And within a camp you can also be a guest in a tent, etc. It seems that he did betray Ryman Frey to Catelyn, didn't he? The man deserved to die, but like many of the other Freys the outlaws just took him out the treasonous, cowardly way. They are not better than the Freys.

And that's actually the whole point of the story now. The good guys will have to become as worse as the bad guys - or even worse - to triumph and/or getting their revenge. We see this with Catelyn, we see this with Wyman, we see it already with Arya, and we will see it with Bran and Jon. They will all come from down from the high horse to play in the mud. 

The idea that the person providing the food is somehow the host is also pretty weird. Roose Bolton is the Warden of the North, and Ramsay is the Lord of Winterfell. They are the hosts of the men they invited, and everybody knows that. Roose brought his own provisions, and the food Manderly brought would have been tribute or wedding gifts, nothing Manderly still owned after he arrived at Winterfell. But even if it was - do you imagine anybody saw Manderly as the man hosting Ramsay's wedding? Do you think he controls Winterfell and presided over the ceremony? That is what the host does - and the host wasn't Wyman Manderly.

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6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that they are all savages from beyond the Wall who don't even know how to build in stone they qualify as being pampered simply because they were permitted to live in a castle for a time.

What? Please keep your class biases for your discussions at your local pub. I suppose you see immigrants as untermenschen?

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3 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

What? Please keep your class biases for your discussions at your local pub. I suppose you see immigrants as untermenschen?

I'll pretend I never read your insidious assault on my personal integrity by presuming judge me on a personal level on the basis of stuff I write about fictional characters. If you can't differentiate between fiction and reality, don't respond to anything I write here.

Last time I looked Ygritte had no concept of a watchtower, let alone a siege tower. The lifestyle of the wildlings is more primitive than that of the people of the Seven Kingdoms. That's simply a fact. And even the Three Little Pigs (or rather one of them) know that you sleep better in a stone house. Especially if the Big Bad Wolf is outside (or some zombies controlled by ice demons).

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1 hour ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Well, the problem is, most people are not the lord commander of an order whose mission is to stay neutral and protect the realm of man from the Others. 

This thread is about the stupid idea "Mance violated GR". Nevertheless you bring your unhealthy obsession with Jon again and again. I think it won't be long before you explain us how Ramsay is the victim of the story…

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