Mance Rayder violated guest rights!

[Adam Yozza]

2 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

The fact that Jon recognized the threat and still chose to put them all in danger just to rescue his sister makes his decision to do so even worse.  Jon should die and stay dead for what he did.  He put poor Bowen Marsh and the watch in danger when he meddled with the Boltons.  

The second you used that phrase, you lost pretty much all your credibility with me.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

He executed Slynt for disrespect when the appropriate punishment was time in the cells.  You really can't call it insubordination because Slynt eventually agreed to go on his mission.

Lordy.

No, Jon didn't execute Slynt for disrespect; it was for refusing to obey his Lord Commander's order. It doesn't matter if Slynt "eventually agreed". He's a subordinate - he doesn't get to "eventually" agree to an order. He only must obey it without question. That's how chain of command works and always has.

Please tell me you were being sarcastic with this ridiculous comment.

 

4 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

He put poor Bowen Marsh and the watch in danger when he meddled with the Boltons.  

Dear gods, I hope this one is sarcasm also.

 

[Orphalesion]

5 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

The fact that Jon recognized the threat and still chose to put them all in danger just to rescue his sister makes his decision to do so even worse.  Jon should die and stay dead for what he did.  He put poor Bowen Marsh and the watch in danger when he meddled with the Boltons.  

Or removing a problematic Warden of the north that caused strive and disunity throughout the region would have helped uniting the North against the Others...

And sorry, I cannot take anybody seriously who calls Marsh "Poor Bowen Marsh" in a way that's not meant to be irronic.

"Awww poor widdle Mawshy..." "Go 'way ebil Jon Snu, only wan be a gud Watch!"

 

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

In the end it doesn't really matter if Mance was bound by guest rights. Who will judge him based on this?

-northern society? most likely not, he would first be judged by his actions as a wildling or as a supporter for Stannis/Jon

-Jon or Stannis? no, he would be praised for his actions

-Bolton or Freys? no, he will be judged for the killings and assisting the rebels

-Old Gods? most likely not. Both BR and Bran would probably support his actions.

This is basically what I've been trying to explain for the last few days, thanks for listing it up like that again

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

@Lord Varys I see where you're coming from, but I have to disagree. Throughout the books it's made clear that guest right is initiated by an invited guest being given food by the host. Roose and Ramsay did not do this. Manderly provided the food at Winterfell. That doesn't make Manderly the host, I've never said that and I don't think anyone else has either. What it does mean, is that no one in Winterfell is protected by guest right. Not the host's; not the visitors. So Mance broke nothing. Manderly also didn't break guest right, not even with his Frey Pie's (If indeed that's what he did; remember, that's not confirmed). If the Frey's were in those pie's then he did something very immoral, sure, but he didn't break guest right. As you yourself pointed out he asked for a song about the Rat Cook. The Rat Cook wasn't punished for murder, or forcing cannibalism on someone else. He was punished for breaking guest right. Manderly knows all this and is taunting Roose with it.

That is part of the formal ritual. But there is no indication that you can only be a proper guest and under the proper guest right protection if the rituals are upheld. For instance, Jon Snow has Cregan Karstark attacked and arrested on the street and a considerable distance away from Castle Black to ensure that the man cannot claim status as a guest.

And while it might be that Manderly provided all the food at the wedding feast (which I don't buy, but let's assume for a moment that this is correct) then the Boltons would have later provided various people with food later on. I mean, you surely recall that they later assemble all in the great hall, and men get fed by one vast cooking enterprise there.

It makes no sense to pretend that there are no guests at Winterfell, nor does it make sense to assume there are loopholes and the like to get out of the 'legal technicalities' of guest right protection. There are hosts and there are guests, and if guest right is worth anything then it applies to all guests. That's not that hard to understand.

The rituals are there to ensure that everybody understands that you are a guest/host and that there is a truce now and nobody is going to try anything. 

But that's not always necessary.

Also, note that none of us are there when Lord Wyman and all the other noblemen at Winterfell first meet with and interact with Roose Bolton. For all we know he shared some of his own hippocras and venison with all the lords and knights he received as Warden of the North. Events are portrayed through Theon's eyes and Theon is not exactly privy to things Roose Bolton and the Lords of the North do behind close doors, is he?

In that sense, focusing on the wedding feast as such - where a huge part of the food was provided by Lord Wyman - doesn't really help.

As to Wyman's actions:

I think there is a double meaning there. The song about the Rat Cook is a clue about the Frey pies, of course. But there is also another, even subtler layer there. Wyman may not have broken guest right when he killed the Freys - unlike the Rat Cook - but did the Rat Cook only break guest right when he murdered the Andal king's son or also when he fed the king his son baked in a pie?

I think we can all agree that neither a host nor a guest should be fed his own child while the people involved have a host-guest relationship. If you did that to me in a feudal world context while I was your guest I'd feel within my rights to conclude that you have broken guest right and I'm now obliged to do the same, doing my best to make you enjoy a good medieval execution method.

That is why I brought up Ned and Robb in this context. They would both take Wyman's head for a transgression as awful as that - both if he fed them some people as well as if they had heard he done it to somebody else, never mind the reason.

[Nowy Tends]

“Poor Bowen Marsh” how could I have missed that one must be naughty naughty Jon's fault…

[bemused]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Especially those people who actually wholeheartedly follow the Bolton cause - like the Bolton, Dustin, Ryswell men. But also people on the fence like Hother Umber and his levies, the Manderlys, and the Hornwood, Tallhart, etc. men showing up there.

I don't believe any of the above wholeheartedly (or even halfheartedly) support the Bolton cause.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The washerwomen confessed that they killed the men, didn't they? They make it clear they didn't kill the Frey boy, but they did kill the men.

No, they did not. They simply didn't bother to deny Theon's accusation.They didn't care what he thought and in fact, may have felt that he might be more cooperative if he feared them. GRRM goes on to have Theon think that it was useless to deny Rowan's accusations against him ... she would not believe him anymore than he believed her. I don't think we should ignore that little tid-bit.

I think it was Holly who told Theon they were there to be fucked, not feared.. while Rowan simply stated the obvious - Yellow Dick was a pig of a man. (Hardly a confession in my book.)

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if they secretly plot against them rather than openly denounce them as traitors and murderers they are cowards and liars. There is no way around that.

Like @Clegane'sPup I think taking sides is necessary. One man's cowards and liars are another man's (or woman's) brave infiltrators in a dangerous just cause.

6 hours ago, Tucu said:

In the end it doesn't really matter if Mance was bound by guest rights. Who will judge him based on this?

-northern society? most likely not, he would first be judged by his actions as a wildling or as a supporter for Stannis/Jon

-Jon or Stannis? no, he would be praised for his actions

-Bolton or Freys? no, he will be judged for the killings and assisting the rebels

-Old Gods? most likely not. Both BR and Bran would probably support his actions.

Well said.

[Nowy Tends]

14 minutes ago, bemused said:

No, they did not. They simply didn't bother to deny Theon's accusation.They didn't care what he thought and in fact, may have felt that he might be more cooperative if he feared them.

Yes, good point. Plus, they had no reasons to commit these random murders; that's almost counter-productive for them actually…

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, bemused said:

I don't believe any of the above wholeheartedly (or even halfheartedly) support the Bolton cause.

You don't think the Bolton men support the Bolton cause? The men who butchered their fellow Northmen on Roose Bolton's orders? Believing the Dustins and Ryswells don't stand with Roose is conspiracy theory in my book. George wants a conflict there, not the Boltons failing without a fight. That's why Roose has some real allies.

With the Umber, Hornwood, Tallhart, etc. men we do have reason for doubt. And the Manderly allegiance is clear. But the others are in camp Bolton. If they weren't they would have just put down Roose and Ramsay collectively upon arrival at Winterfell. They would have had the critical mass to do just that.

21 minutes ago, bemused said:

No, they did not. They simply didn't bother to deny Theon's accusation.They didn't care what he thought and in fact, may have felt that he might be more cooperative if he feared them. GRRM goes on to have Theon think that it was useless to deny Rowan's accusations against him ... she would not believe him anymore than he believed her. I don't think we should ignore that little tid-bit.

I think it was Holly who told Theon they were there to be fucked, not feared.. while Rowan simply stated the obvious - Yellow Dick was a pig of a man. (Hardly a confession in my book.)

Well, they are still our best suspects. And it does make sense for them to talk milk people for information and then kill them if they became suspicious.

21 minutes ago, bemused said:

Like @Clegane'sPup I think taking sides is necessary. One man's cowards and liars are another man's (or woman's) brave infiltrators in a dangerous just cause.

Still, if we are talking guest right stuff like that is irrelevant. People ignoring it are all committing the same crime. And let's not forget that Robb gave the Freys just cause for vengeance. The execution was over the top and ugly - but House Frey publicly declaring for King Joffrey and then defeating Robb in battle, taking him prisoner, torturing him, killing him, desecrating his body, etc. would all have been fine within the framework of the society they live in. That's how it is done.

[Adam Yozza]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

but House Frey publicly declaring for King Joffrey and then defeating Robb in battle, taking him prisoner, torturing him, killing him, desecrating his body, etc. would all have been fine within the framework of the society they live in. That's how it is done.

The torture probably would have been looked down upon but yeah, declaring for Joffrey after being given just cause to abandon Robb would have been perfectly fine. But they didn't do that.

[Adam Yozza]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't think the Bolton men support the Bolton cause? The men who butchered their fellow Northmen on Roose Bolton's orders? Believing the Dustins and Ryswells don't stand with Roose is conspiracy theory in my book. George wants a conflict there, not the Boltons failing without a fight. That's why Roose has some real allies.

With the Umber, Hornwood, Tallhart, etc. men we do have reason for doubt. And the Manderly allegiance is clear. But the others are in camp Bolton. If they weren't they would have just put down Roose and Ramsay collectively upon arrival at Winterfell. They would have had the critical mass to do just that.

No they would not. Roose has about four thousand Bolton and Karstark men with him. He also had two thousand Frey's. Manderly, Dustin, Tallhart, Ryswell, Cerwyn, Hornwood and Umber combined have somewhere around fifteen hundred maybe two thousand.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

The torture probably would have been looked down upon but yeah, declaring for Joffrey after being given just cause to abandon Robb would have been perfectly fine. But they didn't do that.

Not really. This is a harsh world. And people have to pay for their crimes, especially if they are personal insults. The Boltons may have flayed Starks alive but we don't know - and likely don't want to know - what the Kings of Winter did in return to any Boltons they could spend time with. The punishment meets the crime.

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

No they would not. Roose has about four thousand Bolton and Karstark men with him. He also had two thousand Frey's. Manderly, Dustin, Tallhart, Ryswell, Cerwyn, Hornwood and Umber combined have somewhere around fifteen hundred maybe two thousand.

I'm not talking about a pitched battle or open warfare. I'm talking about scores or hundreds of determined Northmen in Winterfell paying Roose and Ramsay a visit and ending the line of House Bolton for good and all. That could be done. And still can be done. And if, as @bemusedimplied, not even the Bolton men stand with House Bolton then this could be done rather easily.

Also note that it would be enough if a majority of the men at Winterfell simply did not care what happens to the Boltons. It would be enough if they would stand aside and look the other way while the mad dogs are put down. But apparently more people care about Roose than don't care about him. They fear him and Ramsay, and that keeps them in line.

[bemused]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't think the Bolton men support the Bolton cause? The men who butchered their fellow Northmen on Roose Bolton's orders? Believing the Dustins and Ryswells don't stand with Roose is conspiracy theory in my book. George wants a conflict there, not the Boltons failing without a fight. That's why Roose has some real allies.

With the Umber, Hornwood, Tallhart, etc. men we do have reason for doubt. And the Manderly allegiance is clear. But the others are in camp Bolton. If they weren't they would have just put down Roose and Ramsay collectively upon arrival at Winterfell. They would have had the critical mass to do just that.

C'mon, you know I wasn't referring to the Boltons. The only real allies Roose has among the northern houses are the Karstarks and they're on their way to Stannis. He does have the Freys, though.

I can't believe you haven't seen or participated in any of the threads that discuss the size of the Bolton / Frey forces relative to those of the other houses within Winterfell. By any reckoning, Roose has them far outnumbered (perhaps as much as 2-1), even when you count the Dustin and Ryswell men among his opposition. Critical mass is on the Bolton side.

Yes, it's conspiracy theory (with a capital "C") - but one I believe will be proven true in one of it's many forms in TWoW. I adhere to one particular version, which may or may not pan out, but I can't doubt that there is a broad conspiracy among the northern resistance.

Regarding the spearwives, you wrote -

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, they are still our best suspects.

I disagree. The killings were guaranteed to inflame tensions within WF, pressuring Roose to send some of his forces out. This would not have benefited Mance and his women; their objective was to rescue the girl and get away as cleanly as possible. They are anxious to get to Stannis before Roose sends his men out.

There are only two factions that would benefit that I can see - those houses opposing Roose , numerically increasing their chances against him - and Ramsay who never wanted to go to WF in the first place, but marry fArya in Barrowton and attack Stannis immediately. Once in WF, he itches to be rid of prying eyes and Roose's strictures.

The Northmen deliver their own pressure via Manderly's taunts (targetting the Freys); I can't see them murdering their own men to accomplish their goal.There would be no purpose in goading the Flints, Tallharts, Cerwyns, etc. ... When the killings begin, Theon's initial feeling of deja vu, recalling Ramsay/Reek's killings when Theon held WF is right on the money, for me.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, if we are talking guest right stuff like that is irrelevant.

 I think that's backwards. Rather, the situation makes the norms of guest right irrelevant. it's very like the question of whether or not Jon broke his NW oath when it has become apparent that the oath, which has likely been added to over the centuries, now (taken in total) makes little sense in the current situation. It's a mistake (and fruitless, IMO) to nit-pick the finer points of a rule or tradition that doesn't really cover the situation at hand.

Ha! ed by @Adam Yozza regarding levy numbers, above. (Thanks)

[bemused]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not talking about a pitched battle or open warfare. I'm talking about scores or hundreds of determined Northmen in Winterfell paying Roose and Ramsay a visit and ending the line of House Bolton for good and all. That could be done. And still can be done.

It would be terribly, terribly costly to attempt it outnumbered 2-1. They're brave but they're not brave fools. It would be a messy and confusing affair, fighting man to man among the snowy walkways and castle hallways. Their chances are considerably better minus the Freys and even minus the Freys and Manderly's knights. And - my tinfoil (but very heavy duty tinfoil, I contend) - their chances will be much, much better if, as I believe is foreshadowed (though yet to be stated openly) some of the forces Manderly told Davos were at his disposal are set to enter WF by a secret  passageway connected to the crypts.

As it stands on page though, minus Freys, Manderly knights and (as I believe) Ramsay and some Bolton men (as per Theon's prediction in his TWoW chapter) the other northern houses, including Dustins and Ryswells could roughly even the odds. 

If there should be a secret injection of WH forces, the resistance could outnumber Roose.

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Also note that it would be enough if a majority of the men at Winterfell simply did not care what happens to the Boltons. It would be enough if they would stand aside and look the other way while the mad dogs are put down.

This would be next to impossible for any of them, considering the confusion that is likely to reign.

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

ill, if we are talking guest right stuff like that is irrelevant. People ignoring it are all committing the same crime. And let's not forget that Robb gave the Freys just cause for vengeance. The execution was over the top and ugly - but House Frey publicly declaring for King Joffrey and then defeating Robb in battle, taking him prisoner, torturing him, killing him, desecrating his body, etc. would all have been fine within the framework of the society they live in. That's how it is done.

As people in this thread have expressed, in the long run guest right is not going to change the long term goal of the saga.

What is happening in WF is a combination of variables.

Yes, Lord Varys, Robb and the northmen are considered traitors by the Lannister/Baratheon IT.

Yes, Roose made a choice to betray Robb. In return Roose received the title of Warden of the North. Roose also was given a fake daughter of Eddard.

Walder said:

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI      "Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course." The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. "My guests," he said. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."     "We thank you for your hospitality, my lord," Robb replied. Edmure echoed him, along with the Greatjon, Ser Marq Piper, and the others. They drank his wine and ate his bread and butter. Catelyn tasted the wine and nibbled at some bread, and felt much the better for it. Now we should be safe, she thought.

Walder lied. The northerners knew Walder was angry. They hoped that the wedding between Tully and Frey would ease the tension.   Unknown to them was that a massacre was planned.

The WF situation is a different ball of wax. The northmen are still in a state of rebellion against the Lannister/Baratheon IT. Roose, trying to bring to northmen to heal, summoned the leal lords. Roose told them to bring hostages.

Roose moved the wedding from Barrowton to WF because he is trying to bait Stannis. Again, Roose is supporting the Lannister/Baratheon throne.

The northerners went to Barrowton and traveled to WF under duress. If you prefer, their Warden summoned and they obeyed.

Show me any textual quote that Roose or Ramsey welcomed their honored guests or that the leal lords were pleased and in agreement with the marriage of Jeyne to Ramsey.

Since these threads get blurred. LC Snow did not send Mance to WF. Mance went there on his own accord.  Yes, Mance requested spearwives from Moles Town. Yes, a member of the NW retrieved them.

Ohhhh, <sarcasm> LC Snow should not have cooperated with Stannis. Well, Stannis is the one who showed up.  No one else answered the call.

It goes on and on. Did the gardener actually have a plan? Did martin think he was being witty with the pink/bastard letter?  Because of a preview chapter on martin’s site I know Stannis has Theon and Jeyne.  There are too many moving parts. The story is left open to personal interpretation until martin lets loose of WoW.

BTW: this is 2018. If a person has been living in a bunker since 2011 because they dunna want to know about spoilers, do not search the internet for ASOIAF or George Martin, and don’t expect me to coddle your desire to remain unspoiled.

And yes, the question will be what does all of the above have to do with guest right. Nothing, absolutely nothing. It's a concept martin made up drawing from his study of history.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, bemused said:

C'mon, you know I wasn't referring to the Boltons. The only real allies Roose has among the northern houses are the Karstarks and they're on their way to Stannis. He does have the Freys, though..

He has the Dustins and the Ryswells, too. And perhaps even Hother Umber (although I don't really buy that).

1 hour ago, bemused said:

I can't believe you haven't seen or participated in any of the threads that discuss the size of the Bolton / Frey forces relative to those of the other houses within Winterfell. By any reckoning, Roose has them far outnumbered (perhaps as much as 2-1), even when you count the Dustin and Ryswell men among his opposition. Critical mass is on the Bolton side.

The men in the army brought back from the Riverlands are not exclusively Dreadfort men. Many of them are - and others are Karstark men, true - but those are not exclusively Bolton men.

1 hour ago, bemused said:

Yes, it's conspiracy theory (with a capital "C") - but one I believe will be proven true in one of it's many forms in TWoW. I adhere to one particular version, which may or may not pan out, but I can't doubt that there is a broad conspiracy among the northern resistance.

There is no Northern resistance. There are just people with ambitions. If there was a broad resistance movement then Manderly wouldn't have acted as craven as he did - he would have defied Roose and he would have denounced 'Arya Stark' as a fake and declared for Stannis or Rickon Stark. Instead he believes he can only win if he has the Stark boy - not know where the Stark boy is, actually have him. 

That wouldn't be necessary if a majority of the Northern lords were against Roose Bolton. If that were true, the very prospect that Ned's sons might still alive should be enough to turn against him. They would not need 'proof'.

1 hour ago, bemused said:

I disagree. The killings were guaranteed to inflame tensions within WF, pressuring Roose to send some of his forces out. This would not have benefited Mance and his women; their objective was to rescue the girl and get away as cleanly as possible. They are anxious to get to Stannis before Roose sends his men out.

They profit from mistrust and suspicion, too, considering that hostilities among the factions within Winterfell would provide the ideal distraction for their enterprise

1 hour ago, bemused said:

There are only two factions that would benefit that I can see - those houses opposing Roose , numerically increasing their chances against him - and Ramsay who never wanted to go to WF in the first place, but marry fArya in Barrowton and attack Stannis immediately. Once in WF, he itches to be rid of prying eyes and Roose's strictures.

The second idea seems conspiracy theory territory, too. The former could work - but any real conspiracy would have targeted important people, not no-names. In fact, they would have made it look like if the Freys and Boltons were targeting Northmen, causing the others to grow suspicious of Roose, Ramsay, and the Freys.

1 hour ago, bemused said:

I think that's backwards. Rather, the situation makes the norms of guest right irrelevant. it's very like the question of whether or not Jon broke his NW oath when it has become apparent that the oath, which has likely been added to over the centuries, now (taken in total) makes little sense in the current situation. It's a mistake (and fruitless, IMO) to nit-pick the finer points of a rule or tradition that doesn't really cover the situation at hand.

I don't care about people's opinion whether something is still appropriate or reasonable in this or that situation (or rather not in threads that don't deal with that specific question). The point here is whether guest right was broken at Winterfell by Mance and his women and it clearly was.

Your line of argument fits in likely with the view of tyrants who make special rules for themselves. Maegor the Cruel believed the scriptures of the Faith didn't apply to his marriages, Aerys II thought the champion of House Targaryen in a trial-by-combat was fire, readers come up with excuses for characters breaking their vows and promises and going against custom because 'they had no other choice' or 'it is about the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law'. That's just nonsense. There is a law or a custom and a vow and you either break it or you keep it. There is no middle ground.

Rules either apply to all or to no one. There are no special rules for Jon, Mance, etc. That is - there are some special rules for kings, of course. This is a monarchy and it sets the person of the king above and beyond ordinary men. If kings were normal people they wouldn't wear crowns.

Whether you should be punished for the thing is another matter entirely. But there is no reason to deny that you are coldblooded murderer (hello there, Arya), or an oathbreaker (hello there, Jaime and Jon), etc. if you are what you are accused of.

People always have excuses or justifications for their crimes. But they remain criminals. Whether they deserve to get away with their crimes and evil/stupid deeds is another question entirely.

I have no issues condemning Jon Snow for his selfish and stupid behavior, yet I never wanted him to die or stay dead. In fact, I wanted him to be stronger than he is. Staying true to his vow, actually putting mankind before the life of his sister. But he didn't. I'm disappointed there. He deserved what Marsh and the others did to him, but one death is enough punishment. If he returns I'm all fine with him continuing stuff. And I guess he'll have learned his lesson and stop putting family before what truly matters.

37 minutes ago, bemused said:

It would be terribly, terribly costly to attempt it outnumbered 2-1. They're brave but they're not brave fools. It would be a messy and confusing affair, fighting man to man among the snowy walkways and castle hallways. Their chances are considerably better minus the Freys and even minus the Freys and Manderly's knights. And - my tinfoil (but very heavy duty tinfoil, I contend) - their chances will be much, much better if, as I believe is foreshadowed (though yet to be stated openly) some of the forces Manderly told Davos were at his disposal are set to enter WF by a secret  passageway connected to the crypts.

Sorry, that is just wishful thinking on your part. If Mance and his women can get in the chambers of 'Arya Stark' then a determined contingent of suicidal loyalist Northmen could also put down Roose and Ramsay. It is not that hard. They could attack the keep Roose is inside in the middle of the night, they could attack them in the great hall, they could assassinate him while he walking around in the castle. The possibilities are endless.

There is a chance that the situation would escalate, sure, but if they were smart they could come up with a way that reduced the risk. And even if everything escalated - it would help the cause. Roose would have lesser men to fight against Stannis, perhaps even losing his ability to do so - say, if the survivors and many bystanders decide to desert or defect after the would-be assassins have been put down.

In addition, you know, Lord Wyman could have just poisoned them all with his food. All he would have needed was a slow-acting poison and the courage to poison himself along with his enemies (like Horbert Hightower of the Caltrops did). He could have spared most of his own men by poisoning only the best meat, the food reserved for the most highborn attendees of the wedding. That way he could have taken out Roose, Ramsay, Barbrey Dustin, Theon Greyjoy, the Ryswells, Hother Umber, Aenys and Hosteen Frey, etc.

The idea it is a smart or courageous thing for them to sit on their hands and do nothing while Roose prepares Stannis' demise is, quite frankly, ridiculous.

They don't need more men. They need some courageous men who actually are brave enough to risk their lives. But there are no such men there, apparently.

The idea that people only act when they have the advantage of numbers makes no sense, either. Robb won all his battles against the odds. He was always outnumbered by his enemies. And in a castle the numerical advantage of the enemy can be neutralized very effectively.

Instead, those morons actually played in Roose's hands. The Manderlys provoking the Freys doesn't help escalating things with the Boltons. And now that the Manderlys and Freys are out of the castle Roose's position is even stronger. A proper conspiracy would have made it appear as if the Boltons were working against the other Northmen, creating very real tensions not between Roose's allies (Manderlys and Freys) but instead the Boltons and the others. Roose has trouble keeping the peace in the end, but his is still seen as a man guaranteeing the peace, not as an aggressor or the root of the problem.

47 minutes ago, bemused said:

This would be next to impossible for any of them, considering the confusion that is likely to reign.

What are you talking about? A proper conspiracy involves that the people inform their men when they make a move. The Northmen moving against Roose would, of course, inform their sergeants, etc. what do do now. Help with the attack, add to the distraction, ensure that people don't stop the assassins, etc.

If you have a critical mass of the leaders on your side they could use their authority to ensure that a critical mass of the men join the right side or stay out of the conflict.

[Clegane'sPup]

15 hours ago, bemused said:

ETA: I should add that by my reckoning, Mance and his women are not responsible for the murders ... that would be Ramsay and of course, Big Walder for Little Walder. (Probably not alone)

Nice to see you chatting again.

I am among one of the few that think Ramsey is behind the killings in WF.

[Kandrax]

9 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

f indeed that's what he did; remember, that's not confirmed).

Martin confirmed via SSM

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VI      "Bread and salt. Heh. Of course, of course." The old man clapped his hands together, and servants came into the hall, bearing flagons of wine and trays of bread, cheese, and butter. Lord Walder took a cup of red himself, and raised it high with a spotted hand. "My guests," he said. "My honored guests. Be welcome beneath my roof, and at my table."     "We thank you for your hospitality, my lord," Robb replied. Edmure echoed him, along with the Greatjon, Ser Marq Piper, and the others. They drank his wine and ate his bread and butter. Catelyn tasted the wine and nibbled at some bread, and felt much the better for it. Now we should be safe, she thought.

Just saying - he also said 'mayhaps' at one point, did he not? And we all know what that means, right?

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

The WF situation is a different ball of wax. The northmen are still in a state of rebellion against the Lannister/Baratheon IT. Roose, trying to bring to northmen to heal, summoned the leal lords. Roose told them to bring hostages.

They are not. They all bent the knee and they accepted Roose as their Warden of the North and Tommen as their king. Those Northmen still rebelling are not at Winterfell.

And hostages are guests, too, by the way. They can only be mistreated/hurt/killed if their family and allies do misbehave/continue their treason. Theon was both a hostage and a guest at Winterfell, was he not, and as such under guest right protection until such time as Balon gave Ned cause to murder Theon.

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Show me any textual quote that Roose or Ramsey welcomed their honored guests or that the leal lords were pleased and in agreement with the marriage of Jeyne to Ramsey.

I don't have to do that because it is clear Roose is master of Winterfell and the people attending his son's wedding are his guests. And as I said above - we have no idea what Roose talked with the other lords behind closed doors. He could have offered them his own food there, just as he could - and likely did - welcome them all properly at Winterfell.

Or do you think those people all showed up and then Roose just started talking to them without properly welcoming them in some form? We don't get scenes like that because Theon isn't exactly in the shape or allowed to hang out the important people when they interact with Roose Bolton.

19 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Since these threads get blurred. LC Snow did not send Mance to WF. Mance went there on his own accord.  Yes, Mance requested spearwives from Moles Town. Yes, a member of the NW retrieved them.

Jon is as responsible for Mance's deeds at Winterfell as Tywin is for the Red Wedding. Mance is his man. He says so himself in ADwD, and it is Jon who gives Mance permission to leave Castle Black.

He isn't breaking guest right at Winterfell, though. Just as Tywin didn't break any guest right at the Twins. He wasn't there.

Denying that is going against the whole spirit of the books. This is a medieval setting. Loyalty is personal. A leader, lord, king is personally responsible for the deeds, actions, and crimes of his people. That is why Ned immediately takes Catelyn arresting Tyrion on himself. He is the Lord of Winterfell.

Jon is also very aware that he is responsible for anything Mance does. He knows and accepts this. He opened the window himself when he sent Mance, and when Ramsay opens the door with the Pink Letter he gladly works through it because that's what a self-respecting leader has to do in this world. He cannot say 'But I never sent the man to Winterfell! How could he abduct Lady Bolton. I'm abhorred and disgusted by this dishonorable behavior!' That would make him look even worse - and he knows that.

Better your people do stupid and cruel things on your command than they do things against or in spite your wishes/commands. The first doesn't make you look good, either, but it doesn't make you look weak.

[HexMachina]

10 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

We have a winner

Are you a specialist of the internal regulations in the Night Watch? What do you believe Jeor Mormont would have done to Slynt after his refusal to obey orders? Sent him to bed without having dinner? A spanking maybe?

Probably not a lot. I mean Jon is merely confined to his cell after trying to strangle a superior officer. Discipline clearly wasn’t his forte

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Probably not a lot. I mean Jon is merely confined to his cell after trying to strangle a superior officer. Discipline clearly wasn’t his forte

In addition, George has implied in some SSM that Mormont wasn't exactly typical in his dealing with the whole Mole's Town whoring, either. That was oathbreaking, plain and simple, and there are likely Lord Commanders - like Brynden Rivers, perhaps? - who did not tolerate stuff like that.

Men don't need to be executed to prevent them from visiting a brothel. Castration can help, too. A severe beating. Ten days in an ice cell. Whatever punishments the Watch has to offer that is not execution.