Jump to content

Mance Rayder violated guest rights!


Wolf's Bane

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

The free folk are now on the Westerosi side of the wall.  They are expected to abide by guest right

Even on their side of the wall, they are expected to abide by guest right. Also, Mance isn't night's watchmen, anymore. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Agree with the underlined.  Mellisandre had this idea to use the wildling boy for their leverage on Mance.  Jon chose to go along with it because telling them they have Craster's son would defeat the purpose of the baby switch. 

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the purpose of the baby switch has already been realized by the time Mel comes to Jon with this idea.  That purpose being to get Mance's baby away from Melisandre in case she wanted to try burning him.  Jon would lose nothing by revealing the truth to Melisandre at this point...Mance's baby is well away to safety.  

Quote

The whole mission to rescue Arya was a mess from the beginning.  It should not have happened.  

Well, a lot of this is a matter of perspective.  Personally, I'm rooting HARD against the Boltons so anything that causes them trouble is good by me.  We have yet to see the results, but who knows...perhaps Mance/Theon rescuing "Arya" from the Boltons will help lead to their downfall if it causes some of the Northern Lords to betray the Boltons...to me that would make the rescue mission very worthwhile.

Quote

Mance Rayder risked his life and those of the spearwives on a lie.  Squirrel the wildling is the one most likely to have gotten herself caught and tortured for information.  It was disaster from the beginning.  Mel's vision bit Jon's cock off.  Jon betrayed the watch and started a fight with the Boltons and it wasn't even Arya.  Mance got himself captured and his women tortured to help Arya, and it wasn't even the real Arya.  The author set up Jon for failure.  I was not surprised after Jon's desertion early on in the story.  

This is all very unclear still, but it's very possible if not likely that Mance knows "Arya" is a fake.  Remember, Mance has seen Arya pretty recently...he was there at Robert's feast in Winterfell at the beginning of AGOT and makes a point of telling Jon that he specifically "noted" all the Stark children and their direwolves.  For comparison, Jaime Lannister who also saw Arya around that same time frame realizes right away that "Arya" is a fake.

Quote

Jon is not responsible for Mance deserting the Night's Watch over a piece of cloth.  Mance Rayder is the only one responsible for that crime because he was insubordinate to his commander and chose to break his vows rather than wear his uniform properly.  Jon is partially responsible for Mance Rayder's breaking of guest rights because he sent the man on that mission.  You can't argue that Mance Rayder chose to go through the danger of rescuing Arya out of the goodness of his heart.   He did it because Jon told him to.  Is it fair to Jon to hold him accountable?  Yes.  You can't deny that he sent Mance Rayder out on that mission. 

Again, has has been discussed multiple times in this thread it's very unclear what Mance is doing in Winterfell and whether that has any relation to Arya's rescue mission.  Mance was sent to Longlake to rescue what ended up being Alys Karstark.  There is no indication whatsoever that Mance ever even showed up at Longlake...which indicates that Mance had a different mission in mind other than rescuing "Arya."

And this lines up with Mance's own statements, when he mentions that he has a "ploy" that is clearly separate from rescuing Arya.  It seems pretty clear to me that the ploy involves showing up at Winterfell and doing something there, whether it has to do with accessing the crypts or helping Stannis out it is entirely unclear.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mance had already agreed to the mission before Melisandre had informed Jon of her plan to rescue to rescue fArya. This is Melisandre talking to a disguised Mance at the beginning off Melisandre’s chapter in ADWD telling him where to find Arya.

Quote

 

 “The girl,” she said. “A girl in grey on a dying horse. Jon Snow’s sister.” Who else could it be? She was racing to him for protection, that much Melisandre had seen clearly. “I have seen her in my flames, but only once. We must win the lord commander’s trust, and the only way to do that is to save her.”

“Me save her, you mean? The Lord o’ Bones?” He laughed. “No one ever trusted Rattleshirt but fools. Snow’s not that. If his sister needs saving, he’ll send his crows. I would.”

“He is not you. He made his vows and means to live by them. The Night’s Watch takes no part. But you are not Night’s Watch. You can do what he cannot.”

“If your stiff-necked lord commander will allow it. Did your fires show you where to find this girl?”

“I saw water. Deep and blue and still, with a thin coat of ice just forming on it. It seemed to go on and on forever.”

 

The chapter ends with Melisandre thinking ‘The day has come, the red priestess thought. Lord Snow will have to listen to me now.’

Quote

 

“You have not asked about your sister,” Melisandre said, as they climbed the spiral steps of the King’s Tower.

“I told you. I have no sister. We put aside our kin when we say our words. I cannot help Arya, muchas I—”

He broke off as they stepped inside her chambers. The wildling was within, seated at her board, spreading butter on a ragged chunk of warm brown bread with his dagger. He had donned the bone armor, she was pleased to see. The broken giant’s skull that was his helm rested on the window seat behind him.

Jon Snow tensed. “You.”

“Lord Snow.” The wildling grinned at them through a mouth of brown and broken teeth. The ruby on his wrist glimmered in the morning light like a dim red star.

“What are you doing here?”

“Breaking my fast. You’re welcome to share.”

“I’ll not break bread with you.”

“Your loss. The loaf’s still warm. Hobb can do that much, at least.” The wildling ripped off a bite.

“I could visit you as easily, my lord. Those guards at your door are a bad jape. A man who has climbed the Wall half a hundred times can climb in a window easy enough. But what good would come of killing you? The crows would only choose someone worse.” He chewed, swallowed. “I heard about your rangers. You should have sent me with them.”

“So you could betray them to the Weeper?”

“Are we talking about betrayals? What was the name of that wildling wife of yours, Snow? Ygritte, wasn’t it?” The wildling turned to Melisandre. “I will need horses. Half a dozen good ones. And this is nothing I can do alone. Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole’s Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl’s more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind.”

“What is he talking about?” Lord Snow asked her. “Your sister.” Melisandre put her hand on his arm. “You cannot help her, but he can.”

 

 

This was when Melisandre and Mance decided to clue Jon in on their plan at the end of Melisandre’s chapter. Jon does eventually OK the mission but we actually have no idea why or when he agreed to Mance's mission as the chapter abruptly ends without giving us an answer.

 

Quote

 

“Our false king has a prickly manner,” Melisandre told Jon Snow, “but he will not betray you. We hold his son, remember. And he owes you his very life.”

“Me?” Snow sounded startled. “Who else, my lord? Only his life’s blood could pay for his crimes, your laws said, and Stannis Baratheon is not a man to go against the law … but as you said so sagely, the laws of men end at the Wall. I told you that the Lord of Light would hear your prayers. You wanted a way to save your little sister and still hold fast to the honor that means so much to you, to the vows you swore before your wooden god.” She pointed with a pale finger. “There he stands, Lord Snow. Arya’s deliverance. A gift from the Lord of Light … and me.”

 

We never see Jon coming round to Melisandre’s way of thinking the chapter just ends and the next we hear off it Mance has already left. At the end of this chapter Jon has NOT agreed to anything he is still just confused as to why Mance isn’t dead.

Back to the OP

Quote

Guest right is an ancient and sacred tradition in Westeros. When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked. Once invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay.

Mance has not broken guest right because he hasn’t harmed either Roose or Ramsey Bolton who are the hosts of the Winterfell gathering. If you believe they are the hosts that is, I personally don’t believe that they are the hosts because Roose make a big deal out of saying that they are only going to Winterfell because it Ayra’s Home.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right! Mance is a terrible, horrible person. What kind of monster does that kind of thing to a soul as kind and good hearted as Ramsay?

 

I mean just look at this, he is the ultimate kindest man in Westeros!

 

Mance Rayder deserves to be burned, flayed and beheaded all the while he is hung like some common tapestry!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/4/2018 at 0:52 PM, Tagganaro said:

Again, has has been discussed multiple times in this thread it's very unclear what Mance is doing in Winterfell and whether that has any relation to Arya's rescue mission.

Unclear!  He rescued Arya!  He was sent to bring Arya to the wall so Jon can hide her from her husband.  Mance did his part.  He rescued Arya. He is there to get Arya for Jon.  

On 5/4/2018 at 0:52 PM, Tagganaro said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding, the purpose of the baby switch has already been realized by the time Mel comes to Jon with this idea.  That purpose being to get Mance's baby away from Melisandre in case she wanted to try burning him.  Jon would lose nothing by revealing the truth to Melisandre at this point...Mance's baby is well away to safety.  

Mance doesn't know.  That is the leverage Jon has on him.  

On 5/4/2018 at 0:52 PM, Tagganaro said:

Well, a lot of this is a matter of perspective.  Personally, I'm rooting HARD against the Boltons so anything that causes them trouble is good by me.  We have yet to see the results, but who knows...perhaps Mance/Theon rescuing "Arya" from the Boltons will help lead to their downfall if it causes some of the Northern Lords to betray the Boltons...to me that would make the rescue mission very worthwhile.

We have seen the results.  Jon caused trouble at the wall.  His decision to put together an army of wildlings to attack the Boltons is a violation of the NW's purpose and his oaths.  Bowen Marsh had to kill him to stop his crazy plan.   It is not a matter of perspective.  Jon is guilty of treason against the NW.  He did something he was not supposed to do:  take his sister away from Ramsay.  He was getting ready to do something he was not supposed to do: lead a wildling raiding party to attack the Boltons.  All that trouble and the fall out when he could have just left Arya to take care of herself.  Someone already commented on how idiotic it was to try to get Arya.  The secret will come out sooner or later and it will cause problems between the watch and the Boltons.  It will severely diminish the NW's ability to defend the north against the WW.  The best thing Jon could do to keep peopel safe, which can include Arya, is to focus on his job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

  He did something he was not supposed to do:  take his sister away from Ramsay.  

The best thing Jon could do to keep peopel safe, which can include Arya, is to focus on his job.

:P :lol: :lmao::rofl:    :blink::wacko:

Fortunately the Boltons do only what they're supposed to do! :rolleyes:

As for err… “Arya”, I hesitate between stupidity and wickedness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/4/2018 at 12:20 PM, Kandrax said:

Even on their side of the wall, they are expected to abide by guest right. Also, Mance isn't night's watchmen, anymore. 

Guest rights on the north side, yeah, I agree.  So far as Mance, yeah he's still a man-of-the-watch.  He took his vows and made it to the ranger group.  Desertion doesn't release him from his vows.  Maybe when his head leaves his body, ala the Immortals in Highlander, then maybe he is freed from his vows.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

If i swear that i will fight for my country, than decide to switch side, am i still soldier of my country?

On the battlefield? You would be a traitor worthy of summary execution. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

On the battlefield? You would be a traitor worthy of summary execution. 

That is what happened to Jon Snow, in a way.  He was getting ready to launch an attack on House Bolton and that is something the Watch and its Lord Commander should not do.  I can see where Bowen Marsh would see this as the abandonment of duty and the breaking of vows.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

That is what happened to Jon Snow, in a way.  He was getting ready to launch an attack on House Bolton and that is something the Watch and its Lord Commander should not do.  I can see where Bowen Marsh would see this as the abandonment of duty and the breaking of vows.  

The two are distinguishable. On the one hand you have a soldier going over to the other side. Jon tried to exceed his mandate and intervene in domestic affairs. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
On 5/3/2018 at 8:25 AM, Nowy Tends said:

1/ You got the impression that Jon/Mance relationship is that of commander to subordinate?

2/ There's no real evidence that Bolton's people were killed by the spearwifes. The way they tell Theon they did is not exactly convincing, specially when Ramsay the mad killer is nearby…

And again: SO WHAT? Who cares about GR in that chaos, when the master of the house and his son are sadistic war criminals, when everybody can hear the roarings of pain of a sex slave deceitfully presented as a Stark?

1.  I have that impression because it is true.  Mance Rayder is sworn to the Night's Watch whether he likes it or not.  He is under Jon's command.  He did as he was instructed and Jon gave him the resources (spear wives) to carry out his mission.  Mance is still a crow.  

2.  The spear wives admitted it to Theon.  

Roose is sadistic but he is not a war criminal.  Robb was in the act of rebellion.  Roose served the king of westeros and stopped further damage from a dangerous rebel.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/13/2018 at 3:38 AM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I say technically no , since Arya , Sansa . Bran , Rickon and Jon is alive , neither Roose and Ramsey have claim to Winterfell.

The king of westeros made Roose the warden of the north, whose official castle of residence is Winterfell.  The ruling monarch decides who gets to have Winterfell.  Robb lost the war and his rebellion was not successful.   It is for the monarch to decide who gets the north.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...