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The Frey-Blackfyre Connection


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4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That's how it appears, however, it may only seem that way because they thought they had support in the 7K that never materialized...

Well, even with the Golden Company's invasion there is no real 'conspiracy' going on despite the fact that Varys controls events in KL to a very high degree. 

4 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

But at that time the most famous Daemon was the first Blackfyre. Saying "actually, I named him after Prince Daemon, you know, the consort of Rhaenyra" would be somewhat less believable. 

The same goes for King Aenys. That man has been dead even longer than Prince Daemon - and unlike King Aenys the descendants of Viserys II might actually be proud to be descended from Daemon Targaryen than from the failure Aenys.

If Walder wanted to suck up to the Targaryens choosing the name Aenys wasn't all that smart - and if the Targaryens wanted to understand the whole thing as Blackfyre support they could have interpreted both the Aenys and the Daemon name as Blackfyre support. After all, the Daemon Blackfyres and Aenys Blackfyre were much more recent characters than both Daemon and Aenys Targaryen.

In that sense, I'm really more inclined to believe the Freys wanted to suck up to the ruling guys - and did a poor job at that. And I really don't see Walder plotting with losers like Bittersteel and the Blackfyres - not in 236 AC.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

The same goes for King Aenys. That man has been dead even longer than Prince Daemon - and unlike King Aenys the descendants of Viserys II might actually be proud to be descended from Daemon Targaryen than from the failure Aenys.

I'd say that he was king gives more cover, but I take your point.

 

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16 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'd say that he was king gives more cover, but I take your point.

Yeah, but the cover thing is something the kings would decide, anyway. If Aegon V wanted to see an Aenys Frey as a sign of support for Aenys Blackfyre/the Blackfyre cause then he could use that as a pretext to move against the Freys.

Walder isn't the kind of guy to risk stuff like that.

A proper cover story we see when they drink to 'the king' at Whitewalls. The reader, Dunk, and the casual guest at the wedding think they drink to King Aerys I Targaryen - when in fact the majority of the assembled people drink to King Daemon II Blackfyre.

That kind of thing is really subtle and can go either way - and, in fact, it is Walder's father who leads the toast, starting with the one to the king, and eventually closing by drinking to the King's Hand, Lord Rivers, most likely in an attempt to test the waters in the hall, to see how many Blackfyre loyalists are there and how they react to something like that.

The way Bloodraven deals with Walder's father at the end of the story could imply that Lord Frey had been informing Bloodraven about the plot the entire time - not only retreating from the plan when Egg revealed himself, but setting the gang up to fail in exchange for getting favors from the Iron Throne. The Freys want to rise, and the wealth of House Butterwell is a very big price. 

One assumes that a father wouldn't marry his daughter to a man he intended to ruin - but then, Walder's sister had dishonored herself and was soiled goods. If Walder learned stuff from his father - and the man seems to be cautious and sly - then it is not unlikely that he did care more about his own ambitions and less about his daughter's future.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The way Bloodraven deals with Walder's father at the end of the story could imply that Lord Frey had been informing Bloodraven about the plot the entire time - not only retreating from the plan when Egg revealed himself, but setting the gang up to fail in exchange for getting favors from the Iron Throne. The Freys want to rise, and the wealth of House Butterwell is a very big price. 

That's how I saw it too.

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One assumes that a father wouldn't marry his daughter to a man he intended to ruin - but then, Walder's sister had dishonored herself and was soiled goods. If Walder learned stuff from his father - and the man seems to be cautious and sly - then it is not unlikely that he did care more about his own ambitions and less about his daughter's future.

Yeah, she was damaged goods, and therefore the best use she could be would be as a key part of a master plan. 

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'd say that he was king gives more cover, but I take your point.

 

I’m not so sure. Do you name your son for Aenys the frail and sickly who was widely considered a weak leader, or Daemon, the Prince Consort who leapt from a dragon and defeated the mighty Vhagar?

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22 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

Good topic.

I think the bit in bold is key. Was it really him pinning his colours to the mast? Or was it just him taking the opportunity to have a wee dig at the Targaryens for some slight, real or imagined. Much like Bronn naming Lollys' son Tyrion.

It seems like standard Walder, to be honest. If the Blackfyres happen to win, he could point to Aenys' name as proof of his loyalty and lack of respect for the Targaryens. If the Targaryens confront him he could just go "It's just a name. Wasn't even my decision. The wife liked it".

This does make me wonder who named "Jinglebell" Aegon, and whether it was clear that he was disabled when he was born. It could be seen as either an insult, or a tribute, to Egg.

The OP is thought provoking, but I am going with this explanation. 

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is much more likely that George used this whole thing as a joke to show that even a lackwit can bear the name of a king - the Freys wanted to suck up to the Targaryens, but ended up naming the wrong guy Aegon.

Aegon Bloodborn is another such failure, and of course then there is Rhaegar the Pie and Rhaegar's son Robert - a guy we never met, but which is blatantly moronic that you remain speechless.

Aenys Frey really seemed to have developed some Targaryen fetish - perhaps because he got that royal name? Considering that it was such a rare name it should have stood out rather prominently.

Thinking about Stevron's son Jinglebell here - considering that Stevron Frey is described as a fine guy in the books I'd not be surprised if he played a positive role in Dunk & Egg's life later on during Egg's reign, causing him to honor King Aegon V by naming his second son after him.

Thanks for bringing up the Frey pie. I think this may be an important piece of the puzzle.

The three Freys in the pie are Rhaegar (a grandson, by Aenys Frey, from the Royce marriage), Jared (a son, from the Swann marriage) and Symond (a son from the Crakehall marriage). Crakehalls and Swanns are associated with the kingsguard. Rhaegar is the name of a guy who died before he could become king. This may be a clue that Walder Frey's real ambition was the Iron Throne (or some throne) but Manderly is now putting a stick in the spokes of this plan.

A recent thread irritated me enough that I took a fresh look at the Manderly scene with Wex Pyke and Davos Seaworth, to see if I could make sense of the discussion. The new thought that occurred to me there is that Lord Manderly is a symbolic Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart. It's a long post, so here's the relevant part:

I believe that Manderly is a symbolic parallel for Lady Stoneheart in this scene. He will have his throat cut by Freys and Catelyn has her throat cut by Freys, resulting in the loss of her voice. Manderly is named after a river and Catelyn is from Riverrun. Although dead, Catelyn miraculously rises and regains her voice through the use of gestures and a lipreader among the BwB. On the surface, Manderly's "voices of the dead" remark seems to refer to the fact that Theon and "Reek" reported that the Stark boys and their traveling companions had been killed but now Wex found that they were alive. But the remark may have deeper meaning, especially if the comparison between Manderly and Catelyn turns out to be true.

I bet I can think of more parallels. Both Catelyn and Manderly negotiate betrothals with the Freys and neither set of betrothals will be honored. Manderly's great hall is called the Merman's Court and is decorated in an "under the sea" theme. Catelyn was under water in the Green Fork for three days before being brought up and revived. Manderly and Catelyn both lose a son at the Red Wedding.

The Frey pie and the Manderly / Stoneheart parallel helps to make sense of Catelyn's murder of Aegon / Jinglebell as her dying gesture: Aegon represents Lord Walder himself. It makes sense that this harmless, foolish exterior hides a "king" underneath. The few things we see Jinglebell doing in his big scene at the Red Wedding include:

  • prancing during the song "Alysanne," presumably a song about the successful and long-enduring queen who helped put the dynasty on a firm foundation. This would be consistent with Walder's ambitions for himself and his Frey dynasty.
  • he covers his ears when the Greatjon sings "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" while musicians play "Flowers of Spring". This could show that the northern agenda and the false Frey honey trap are about to result in a clash, and Aegon / Jinglebell is pretending not to hear it - yet.
  • He sucks wine from his fingers, hops about during the bedding ceremony, and steals food from the plates of guests. The wine on his fingers detail is probably a symbolic "blood on his hands" reference. Stealing food from the plates of guests may be a way of showing that Walder Frey is parasitic in his approach to gaining power solely through alliances instead of leal service and valorous military effort.

So the Frey Pie represents the next gesture of revenge on Walder's dynastic and/or royal ambitions. "Aegon" died at the Red Wedding, "Rhaegar" and two "kingsguard" die after leaving White Harbor. Even though Rhaegar Frey is higher in the line of succession, the other two Freys in the Frey Pie are sons of Lord Walder, and he made a point of saying that a son was worth more than a grandson. My suspicion is that Manderly and Stoneheart / The BwB attacks on the Freys will continue to focus on Walder's descendants from his Royce marriage, since those seem to be the ones with the Targaryen names and symbolize Lord Walder's grandest ambitions. Ryman and Petyr Pimple were from this house. Or maybe they will just clean house across the board and there will be a showdown with the last Frey standing - probably Black Walder.

But the Crakehalls are Lannister bannermen, so Frey descendants from that line might be targeted as well. Symond-in-the-pie and Merrett, who is killed by the BwB when he delivers the ransom for Petyr, were from the Crakehall line.

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A little more symbolic evidence, if you can stand it:

The Crakehall sigil is a boar. Boars are associated with the deaths of kings. That may be why two Crakehall descendants have been among the casualties so far.

The Swann Frey (Jared) may have been included because birds go in important pies, such as those served at wedding feasts.

In a long-ago wordplay post, I speculated that the surname "Royce" might be a pun on "roi," the French word for king. And this seems more likely after a recent exploration of the "Roy G. Biv" English-language mnemonic for remembering the colors of the rainbow. So Frey's first marriage to a Royce was probably connected to that theme.

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8 hours ago, Seams said:

This may be a clue that Walder Frey's real ambition was the Iron Throne

Blackwood Freys can inherit IT thanks to Aegon V marriage with Betha, though a lot of people needs to die before anyone of them can inherit.

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  • 1 month later...
On 4/20/2018 at 11:52 PM, Kandrax said:

Blackwood Freys can inherit IT thanks to Aegon V marriage with Betha, though a lot of people needs to die before anyone of them can inherit.

Nope, the Blackwood Freys cannot inherit due Aegon V Targaryen's marriage to Betha Blackwood. This is because allthough the Blackwood Freys share som kinship with Aegon V Targaryen's descendants, they do not themselfes descend from Aegon V Targaryen. You can only inherit from your own ancestors.

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On 4/18/2018 at 4:46 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

These could all be coincidences, and I’m more than happy for this “theory” such as it is, to be shot full of holes, but it seems to me that the naming of his son as Aenys, whose name would have been something of a token for the Blackfyre supporters giving the circumstances of his death (he was executed by Bloodraven after being promised safe conduct for the Great Council that installed Aegon V), around the same time that the Golden Company invaded, is an interesting detail.

After the Second Rebellion, the Fourth Rebellion was the least impressive of the Blackfyre attempts, so it does seem strange that a man like Walder would so publically pin his colours to the mast. However, he may have learned his famous caution after the Fourth Rebellion. Aenys subsequently named his own sons Aegon and Rhaegar, which could either mean that they were simply naming Freys after Targaryens or it was a purposeful gesture of loyalty to make up for Aenys’s naming and the Frey support for Blackfyre.

Interesting topic. I am not sure if naming a child after Aenys shows connection to Blackfyres.  There were several descendants of Walder Frey who had traditional Targaryen names - Maegelle Frey, sister of Aenys  (Maegelle was daughter of the king Jahaerys, she became septa), Aegon Jinglebell, Aegon Bloodborn (outlaw) and his bother Rhaegar.  It seams Freys wanted to be related to the Targaryen clan. It is not clear if Walder Frey chose  names for his descendants himself. Targaryen names don't occur in Walder's  issue from other marriages. So maybe it was his Royce wife's idea, not his. Once one ambitious Royce woman was married to Daemon Targaryen, the Rogue prince. 

O maybe it is not just Frey's ambitions, but a presence of the real Targaryen bloodline in Freys. Aegon Jinglebell was a lackwit. He was only one known member of Frey's family who was disabled. 

And, as mentioned before:

On 4/19/2018 at 5:35 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Another interesting part of the Aeny's branch is that his granddaughter is known as 'white' Walda. I'm guessing that this is because of the colour of her hair rather than being based on her temperament,

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