Did Roose Send The Pink Letter To Jon Snow?

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True. For the readers benefit. But not from Jon’s perspective and limited knowledge of only what the bastard letter claims and the statements made within. 

ADDING: LM, I realized I think you and I may be talking about some

of the same components, just from different angles. Oops! I’m tying to Ice and Fire on my phone while grocery shopping. 

Nice. 

[Mat92]

9 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

I have to disagree on this.

Why would Bowen Marsh and other mutineers want to murder Jon AFTER he let the wildlings through the Wall? As mush as Bowen hates wildlings, he still did let it happen, didn't he? If he cared too much, he would've conspire to murder Jon to prevent this. I doubt that the author made it that simple, and make Bowen act retroactively.

What is gonna Bowen do now, kill all the free folk in their sleep, or exile them all beyond the Wall? He doesn't have the mentality nor the power to do this. Some bigger people are protecting him, if you ask me.

Like I said, it's more of a case of "this is the final straw." Take Thorne for example. Absolutely hates Jon, but he does his duty and obeys when Jon orders them to "arrest" Slynt. Even though Marsh and others highly disagree with Jon's decision to bring Wildlings through the wall (the people they've been fighting for hundreds of years), especially just as winter hits and there's not currently enough food to last them all, they still obey because he is their Lord Commander. 

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Marsh, Slynt, Thorne (and maybe Yarwyck, I’d have to go back and check) we’re caught plotting to kill Jon back in ASOS after Jon returned from ranging. And this mutiny is the third attempt on Jon’s life, but just so happens to be the one most hastily carried out.

We've seen evidence that these people have at least contemplated replacing Jon (not necessarily killing him). These people have seen him also meddling in the affairs of Westeros, such as arranging marriages, and now on top of everything he's declared that he intends to take an army and not only re-take a castle but it's HIS previous home that he has officially renounce. So yeah, I'd say all of this adds up to a hasty kill, you don't really need any outsiders intervening to make this happen.

 

 

9 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

And yes, I have a feeling Marsh will come up with the genius plan to try and put the remaining free folk back on the other side of the wall... or something equally disastrous. 

I think Marsh knows he's a dead man. He's broken his oath, in his mind he's sacrificing himself for the Watch. Of course, he's just as likely to be safe, whoever replaces Jon is likely on his side and there's not really enough Nights Watch members left that would have the strength to oppose them. 

Their biggest threat right now are the Wildlings - Jon saved them and once they find out.... well they've never really been fans of crows in the first place.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 hours ago, Mat92 said:

Like I said, it's more of a case of "this is the final straw." Take Thorne for example. Absolutely hates Jon, but he does his duty and obeys when Jon orders them to "arrest" Slynt. Even though Marsh and others highly disagree with Jon's decision to bring Wildlings through the wall (the people they've been fighting for hundreds of years), especially just as winter hits and there's not currently enough food to last them all, they still obey because he is their Lord Commander. 

It’s the opportunity those plotters who are left have to do what they tried twice before. They tried to off Jon by locking him in the ice cells, and then again when they sent an injured Jon to parlay with Mance. They tried in ways to kill Jon that keeps their hands Baelish clean, so as to slide by the treason rules. But this is why the fourth knife and the crying is so important here, because it go against the keeping hands clean attempts. 

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We've seen evidence that these people have at least contemplated replacing Jon (not necessarily killing him). These people have seen him also meddling in the affairs of Westeros, such as arranging marriages,

What are the NW vows exactly? The oldest part of the wall says they are the simplest  version. 

Also, we see Jon making decisions as a king (not of Westeros, no worries) and despite all the politics, this is a story of humans and hearts and those that forgot their original purpose (refinding themselves). The author has Jon remembering that purpose as the books progress, just as Dany has to remember her words “fire and blood”. The north remembers is a multi entendre phrase. 

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and now on top of everything he's declared that he intends to take an army and not only re-take a castle

Hmm. I don’t remember Jon ever saying he was going to retake Winterfell. Stannis “offers” it to him and he doesn’t take it then, which means WF goes to someone else, and even then Jon doesn’t intervene.

Help an old lady out and show me with the book quote. 

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but it's HIS previous home that he has officially renounce. So yeah, I'd say all of this adds up to a hasty kill, you don't really need any outsiders intervening to make this happen.

It’s hasty in the fact that the plan was to kill Jon, and Marsh took an impromptu opportunity, but the idea has been going on since ASOS. I was retreading bits last night but I was too tired to post then. I’ll add the quotes after coffee.

 

 

To the main OP, this is veering off topic, something that bugs me in threads, let us know if you want to refocus on Roose possibly authoring the bastard letter. 

[Mat92]

36 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hmm. I don’t remember Jon ever saying he was going to retake Winterfell. Stannis “offers” it to him and he doesn’t take it then, which means WF goes to someone else, and even then Jon doesn’t intervene.

Help an old lady out and show me with the book quote. 

It’s hasty in the fact that the plan was to kill Jon, and Marsh took an impromptu opportunity, but the idea has been going on since ASOS. I was retreading bits last night but I was too tired to post then. I’ll add the quotes after coffee.

Jon helping Stannis to retake Winterfell from those who wronged the Starks is much the same thing - still looks bad for Jon for wanting to help.

I was attempting to explain the current situation at the wall is independent of Roose's meddling - if we are assuming Roose sent the Pink Letter - which is why it doesn't make sense that he would need to. I can see how this has veered away from the main OP though, apologies.

[Rufus Snow]

I still don't have any firm conclusion on the Pink Letter, except that I think the George is going to whack us between the eyes with something that was hidden in plain sight.

As to who wrote the letter, I believe it has multiple authorship, because of this:

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Mully had not been wrong; the old steward was trembling, his face as pale as the snows outside. "I am being foolish, Lord Commander, but … this letter frightens me. See here?"

Bastard, was the only word written outside the scroll. No Lord Snow or Jon Snow or Lord Commander. Simply Bastard. And the letter was sealed with a smear of hard pink wax. "You were right to come at once," Jon said. You were right to be afraid. He cracked the seal, flattened the parchment, and read.

A smear of wax without a seal imprinted? That seal has been broken and remelted. I'm surprised Jon didn't refer to this, because it's as suspicious as Seven Hells to me. That to me suggests that it has been tampered with, or at an outside possibility, was written by someone at Winterfell who could get hold of the pink wax, but not the Bolton seal. I'm driven this direction because I really don't want Mance and the spearwives to be in such a mess as the letter suggests....

 

33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Also, we see Jon making decisions as a king (not of Westeros, no worries) and despite all the politics, this is a story of humans and hearts and those that forgot their original purpose (refunding themselves). The author has Jon remembering that purpose as the books progress, just as Dany has to remember her words “fire and blood”. The north remembers is a multi entendre phrase. 

Yeah, remembering is such a big deal - and so I was interested to discover the words of House Royce - as in Waymar, the first person we know of meeting an Other way back in the prologue of Game - for the words of that House are: We Remember.

Then there's Reek/Theon with his insistent 'You have to remember your name' (and I think Arya says this a few times in Braavos, too, or something close); and Bloodraven's 'The trees remember'.

But memories fade, and wander and mutate over time, but what guards against that? Writing, and amongst the First Men that used to be runes - the sigil of House Royce. I don't think it was pure happenstance that it was a Royce who first encounters the Others in the prologue....

Sorry, end of diversion...

[The Fattest Leech]

44 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

Jon helping Stannis to retake Winterfell from those who wronged the Starks is much the same thing - still looks bad for Jon for wanting to help.

I was attempting to explain the current situation at the wall is independent of Roose's meddling - if we are assuming Roose sent the Pink Letter - which is why it doesn't make sense that he would need to. I can see how this has veered away from the main OP though, apologies.

But as far as Jon knows, what was written in the letter is true, which means Jon thinks Stannis is dead and Ramsay will be attacking Castle Black because Jon does not have Jeyne/Arya to give back. Jon was making a preemptive strike to stop an apparent Ramsay charge on CB. As far as I remember, Jon make no statement to retake and reclaim Winterfell. Maybe I forgot? 

And if Jeyne makes it to the wall, Jon still doesn’t have “Arya” to return, so if the PL was written by Ramsay, he just screwed himself out of his sham marriage and sham Winterfell claim as Jon will be the one to identify Jeyne as a fake. 

As far as the letter is concerned, I’m torn. The books say Ramsay, buuut, the Theon TWOW chapter gives plenty of clues another way. And then if you take in to account some possible tampering by Clydas (name?), it is practically mind bending 

[The Sunland Lord]

 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

To the main OP, this is veering off topic, something that bugs me in threads, let us know if you want to refocus on Roose possibly authoring the bastard letter. 

My fear is a thread turning into a Jon Snow hate thread-which happened to hundreds of them already, including a previous I opened and it was about the very concept of the functioning of the Night's Watch as an institution. 

So yeah, for those reasons I would proceed with the authorship of the PL, be it Roose or someone else rather than him, as a counter argument to the OP. 

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

My fear is a thread turning into a Jon Snow hate thread-which happened to hundreds of them already, including a previous I opened and it was about the very concept of the functioning of the Night's Watch as an institution. 

So yeah, for those reasons I would proceed with the authorship of the PL, be it Roose or someone else rather than him, as a counter argument to the OP. 

Absolutely to all of this 

[The Sunland Lord]

15 hours ago, Mat92 said:

Like I said, it's more of a case of "this is the final straw." Take Thorne for example. Absolutely hates Jon, but he does his duty and obeys when Jon orders them to "arrest" Slynt. Even though Marsh and others highly disagree with Jon's decision to bring Wildlings through the wall (the people they've been fighting for hundreds of years), especially just as winter hits and there's not currently enough food to last them all, they still obey because he is their Lord Commander. 

That would be the final straw if there weren't clues that the mutineers weren't plotting betrayal already. However, I agree that they obeyed up to a point-which makes the argument that an outsider was involved valid. If someone was enforcing tasks he didn't like, and suddenly he decides to murder his LC, then I'd say that someone promised protection to him other than sacrificing himself for the Watch. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

On 22/04/2018 at 7:45 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

You just gave me an idea, and it might help answer @aryagonnakill#2's question: Blame it on the Bastard. He is playing this game successfully from book 1 up to this day, doesn't he? 

I can totally see him saying in a classic mob chief style: "Deary dear, my Bastard sent this letter to the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and threatened our respected and ancient order of Brothers and defenders of the Realm. But, what's done is done, isn't it? The boy is dead. Here, I'll spank my vile Bastard and call it a day. Business must go on as usual, doesn't it?"

 

Don't blame it on the sunshine, Don't blame it on the moonlight, Don't blame it on the good times, Blame it on The Bastard! 

"Deary Dear" - I got a good laugh at the thought of the Leech Lord saying this 

I like that mob boss angle - while they are hispanic gangsters, as opposed to Italian mafioso, look at how Alex got rid of Tony, once the hot-headed Cuban got to big for his britches; makes me think of Roose and Ramsay.

One thing about Lord Bolton and his bastard is that you don't see many theories regarding their future in the story, other than those that postulate their deaths. While I hope they eventually pay for their crimes, it would be cool if one (or both) survived the battle of Ice. 

What about you m'lord? How do you see Roose and Ramsay's fate in the next book playing out?

 

[The Sunland Lord]

27 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Don't blame it on the sunshine, Don't blame it on the moonlight, Don't blame it on the good times, Blame it on The Bastard! 

"Deary Dear" - I got a good laugh at the thought of the Leech Lord saying this 

I'm glad, I had a good laugh even making that up.

27 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I like that mob boss angle - while they are hispanic gangsters, as opposed to Italian mafioso, look at how Alex got rid of Tony, once the hot-headed Cuban got to big for his britches; makes me think of Roose and Ramsay.

Yes, it's a relation that resembles one of those. 

Also- "Michael Corleone says hello" - "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." Different context, really, but I always thought the second line was influenced by the first. Both lines are in a sense misguide and a trick-Jaime didn't order Roose to kill Robb, and probably Michael didn't order Frankie's execution-who survived. Also, Lady Stoneheart survived and probably was misguided by Roose and will maybe have an opportunity to ask Jaime about it in person.

27 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

One thing about Lord Bolton and his bastard is that you don't see many theories regarding their future in the story, other than those that postulate their deaths. While I hope they eventually pay for their crimes, it would be cool if one (or both) survived the battle of Ice. 

What about you m'lord? How do you see Roose and Ramsay's fate in the next book playing out?

 

I don't think either will live after next book. But I also don't subscribe to the idea that one of them will kill the other. I think they play a game with their supposedly shaky relationship. It's always been like that when big matters are in question. 

[Mat92]

16 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But as far as Jon knows, what was written in the letter is true, which means Jon thinks Stannis is dead and Ramsay will be attacking Castle Black because Jon does not have Jeyne/Arya to give back. Jon was making a preemptive strike to stop an apparent Ramsay charge on CB. As far as I remember, Jon make no statement to retake and reclaim Winterfell. Maybe I forgot? 

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"It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for this words...."

ADWD, Jon XI

Haha sorry thats me just assuming. Seems like an odd plan for Jon to take a small army of Wildlings to Winterfell (inhabited by Boltons and Freys among others) just for a one-on-one combat with Ramsey. Jon knows full well he's breaking his oath by going.

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"No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows.If this is pathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone."

ADWD, Jon XI

 

10 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

That would be the final straw if there weren't clues that the mutineers weren't plotting betrayal already. However, I agree that they obeyed up to a point-which makes the argument that an outsider was involved valid. If someone was enforcing tasks he didn't like, and suddenly he decides to murder his LC, then I'd say that someone promised protection to him other than sacrificing himself for the Watch. 

I agree.

Sorry for straying from the OP again! 

[The Sunland Lord]

3 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

Haha sorry thats me just assuming. Seems like an odd plan for Jon to take a small army of Wildlings to Winterfell (inhabited by Boltons and Freys among others) just for a one-on-one combat with Ramsey. Jon knows full well he's breaking his oath by going.

 

I agree.

Sorry for straying from the OP again! 

I don't think you did. 

[Therae]

I think it actually was Ramsay wrote the PL, but not necessarily without Roose's (and maybe Barbrey Dustin's) suggestions (though not necessarily with, either--sorry, many vacillations and caveats will ensue...)

The one thing I'm pretty confident about is that the pink letter was sort of a hail mary of damage control.

Ramsey may not know that his wife was a fake, but it seems like he might (seems like even he would have to question the idea that Ned Stark's younger daughter had been trained "how to please a man"), but, more to the point, if Roose doesn't absolutely know, he must suspect (I think he does absolutely know, but that's just me). And now fArya and Theon (who both the Boltons realize knows for sure) have escaped, and if they make it to the Wall, there is Jon to immediately recognize that this is not his half-sister (and whether the Boltons realize it or not, he would also immediately recognize that she is Jeyne Poole). Some domino-effect may be required, but sooner or later, one way or another, that news is going to make it back to Winterfell if it takes Stannis hiring singers to climb the walls and scream NOT ARYA NOT ARYA.

Which will leave the Boltons with support from absolutely no one except the Freys, who are on the wrong side of the the walls at present. I doubt even Barbrey would stick to Roose if that was public.

<Pure speculation>I can see Roose asking Ramsey what exactly he thinks will happen when Jon Snow's not-sister gets to the Wall.  So Ramsey's has to prevent that by any means necessary: provoke him! baffle him with bizarre demands he probably doesn't even understand (why would Jon know what his "Reek" is?)! confound him with demands he can't possibly meet! Draw him away from the Wall and into a fight (Ramsey would naturally expect to win) before Jeyne gets there if at all possible, and, if all else fails, probably he does plan to attack the damn Wall.<\speculation>

Obviously all I can do with the information available is imagine possible scenarios, but it remains that it's critical for the Boltons to prevent Jon from exposing fArya, and Ramsey does like writing letters.

[Jon Fossoway]

Not at all. As for what I've read so far, Roose is trying to survive holed up in Winterfell and not much more. Even aesthetically, the pink letter is so against what I've read from and about Roose it would be a lil unexpected, if not a turn down, to learn that he sent it.

[HexMachina]

11 hours ago, Therae said:

I think it actually was Ramsay wrote the PL, but not necessarily without Roose's (and maybe Barbrey Dustin's) suggestions (though not necessarily with, either--sorry, many vacillations and caveats will ensue...)

The one thing I'm pretty confident about is that the pink letter was sort of a hail mary of damage control.

Ramsey may not know that his wife was a fake, but it seems like he might (seems like even he would have to question the idea that Ned Stark's younger daughter had been trained "how to please a man"), but, more to the point, if Roose doesn't absolutely know, he must suspect (I think he does absolutely know, but that's just me). And now fArya and Theon (who both the Boltons realize knows for sure) have escaped, and if they make it to the Wall, there is Jon to immediately recognize that this is not his half-sister (and whether the Boltons realize it or not, he would also immediately recognize that she is Jeyne Poole). Some domino-effect may be required, but sooner or later, one way or another, that news is going to make it back to Winterfell if it takes Stannis hiring singers to climb the walls and scream NOT ARYA NOT ARYA.

Which will leave the Boltons with support from absolutely no one except the Freys, who are on the wrong side of the the walls at present. I doubt even Barbrey would stick to Roose if that was public.

<Pure speculation>I can see Roose asking Ramsey what exactly he thinks will happen when Jon Snow's not-sister gets to the Wall.  So Ramsey's has to prevent that by any means necessary: provoke him! baffle him with bizarre demands he probably doesn't even understand (why would Jon know what his "Reek" is?)! confound him with demands he can't possibly meet! Draw him away from the Wall and into a fight (Ramsey would naturally expect to win) before Jeyne gets there if at all possible, and, if all else fails, probably he does plan to attack the damn Wall.<\speculation>

Obviously all I can do with the information available is imagine possible scenarios, but it remains that it's critical for the Boltons to prevent Jon from exposing fArya, and we do know that when Ramsey sent a threatening letter to the Greyjoys, Asha responded with an unsuccessful rescue squad. I think he was looking for a similar result here.

Asha did not respond to Ramsay’s letter with an unsuccessful rescue squad. She stayed at Deepwood Motte when she got the “piece of Prince” letter. I, Ah,  think you may have mixed up your mediums  

[The Sunland Lord]

11 hours ago, Therae said:

Obviously all I can do with the information available is imagine possible scenarios, but it remains that it's critical for the Boltons to prevent Jon from exposing fArya, and we do know that when Ramsey sent a threatening letter to the Greyjoys, Asha responded with an unsuccessful rescue squad. I think he was looking for a similar result here.

That would be the telly. 

Anyway on the rest you wrote- I can definitely see Ramsay writing that letter, but with Roose's say so and assistance. 

I think that Roose not reacting in any way possible after Theon and Jeyne escaped would be nonsense.

[Therae]

10 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

That would be the telly. 

 

10 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Asha did not respond to Ramsay’s letter with an unsuccessful rescue squad. She stayed at Deepwood Motte when she got the “piece of Prince” letter. I, Ah,  think you may have mixed up your mediums  

OMG that is embarrassing. Eep. Mea culpa. <foot in mouth emoji>