Identity of Quaithe

[Lollygag]

11 hours ago, Megorova said:

Greek sphinxs are females, and Egyptian are males. The one that was a riddler was in Greece.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx#The_Riddle_of_the_Sphinx

Actual sphinx was about the same size as a lion, not as big as that statue in Egypt.

Actually she was in the books.

Mentioned in The Mystery Knight by Egg, that she is Bloodraven's paramour, that she dances with demons, i.e. she's a shadowbinder, and that she bathes in blood, she's user of bloodmagic, and in ADWD Bloodraven mentioned the woman that he loved, and from the World Book it is known, that the only woman, that he ever loved, was his half-sister Shiera Seastar.

By the way, prior ADWD Bloodraven also was known only from sources outside of ASOIAF books, such as Dunk&Egg novels, and the World Book. So Shiera is not an internet-only phenomenon. She's the main reason why there was a confrontation between Bloodraven and Bittersteel, even years prior First Blackfyre Rebellion.

What was your reaction, when in ADWD it was revealed, that the reason why Bran had to go beyond The Wall, is to meet with Bloodraven, and to become his replacement, even though prior that, Brynden Rivers was only once mentioned in ASOIAF books, specifically in AFFC?

This is the only information known about him from ASOIAF books, prior Bran met him in that cave, AFFC, Sam II:

Brynden Rivers, Bloodraven, lived 100 years ago, was released from the dungeons by Aegon V, escorted maester Aemon to The Wall, on board of Golden Dragon ship, later was chosen Lord Commander of Night's Watch.

All the rest known about him, is information from other sources, such as Dunk&Egg novels, and the World of Ice & Fire. That he was bastard son of Aegon IV, that he was lover of sorceress Shiera Seastar, and that their half-brother and another Great Bastard, Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, founder of Golden Company, was also in love with her, what happened at Redgrass Field, how Bloodraven lost his eye, that he served as NW's LC for 13 years, and then disappeared beyond The Wall. All of it was written only in TWOIAF and briefly mentioned in D&E novels. 

It's not like you actually have to read those books, to get access to that information. All of it is also available thru ASOIAF-wikia here.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brynden_Rivers

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Shiera_Seastar

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegor_Rivers

Quaithe's emotions are not relevant for that scene, in a sense that Dany doesn't know what Quaithe feels, so readers know only what Dany knows, and that is based solely on what she sees of Quaithe. She saw her wet and shiny eyes, and that's all.

The dude in the tree is a real character and a memorable one at that mentoring a major POV. Shiera was only forgetably mentioned once. Becoming a tree, you kind of expect a backstory coming...Not comparable.

When you see those book sales for TWOW, most of them are just weekend/casual readers many of whom only picked up the book because of the show which they don't even really understand. Not us crazies who hang out here in the echo chamber. Most readers are just not going to read the extra stuff for whatever reason. A lot of people on this forum don't even read the extra stuff. A lot of people don't know. Go look at the book sales and review traffic for the main books vs the other books. When TWOW is released this forum will blow up. Hasn't so much for the other books, though.

And yes, Quaithe's emotions matter. The reader is supposed to question why her eyes are wet and shiny otherwise why mention it? The books aren't real life where one may get watery eyes from dust or allergies or a medical condition or whatnot. Each word is a conscious decision. For reasons which we are figure out. Unless you think he's a lousy writer just throwing in random details and filler with no more intention and deliberation than a what a drunk might speak at a bar. In which case, I disagree.

[Lady Rhodes]

10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The dude in the tree is a real character and a memorable one at that mentoring a major POV. Shiera was only forgetably mentioned once. Becoming a tree, you kind of expect a backstory coming...Not comparable.

When you see those book sales for TWOW, most of them are just weekend/casual readers many of whom only picked up the book because of the show which they don't even really understand. Not us crazies who hang out here in the echo chamber. Most readers are just not going to read the extra stuff for whatever reason. A lot of people on this forum don't even read the extra stuff. A lot of people don't know. Go look at the book sales and review traffic for the main books vs the other books. When TWOW is released this forum will blow up. Hasn't so much for the other books, though.

And yes, Quaithe's emotions matter. The reader is supposed to question why her eyes are wet and shiny otherwise why mention it? The books aren't real life where one may get watery eyes from dust or allergies or a medical condition or whatnot. Each word is a conscious decision. For reasons which we are figure out. Unless you think he's a lousy writer just throwing in random details and filler with no more intention and deliberation than a what a drunk might speak at a bar. In which case, I disagree.

I teach English, and I tell my students all the time when they try to gloss over details that writing goes through numerous revisions, so if there is something there, it is meant to be there.  That said, I think it is a stretch to assume that an average reader, not a super fan that has read the extra material (such as Dunk and Egg and WOIAF), will connect "wet" and "shiny" with "sea" and "star".

[Megorova]

38 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I teach English, and I tell my students all the time when they try to gloss over details that writing goes through numerous revisions, so if there is something there, it is meant to be there.  That said, I think it is a stretch to assume that an average reader, not a super fan that has read the extra material (such as Dunk and Egg and WOIAF), will connect "wet" and "shiny" with "sea" and "star".

Well said.

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The reader is supposed to question why her eyes are wet and shiny otherwise why mention it? The books aren't real life where one may get watery eyes from dust or allergies or a medical condition or whatnot. Each word is a conscious decision. For reasons which we are figure out. Unless you think he's a lousy writer just throwing in random details and filler with no more intention and deliberation than a what a drunk might speak at a bar. In which case, I disagree.

I don't think that he's a lousy writer. On the contrary, I think that his writting is multilayered and complicated. And that the casual reader will read his books, and will like them, even though he/she wouldn't even realise, that he/she totally didn't noticed 90% of "coded" information, that was hidden in the text. But it doesn't matter, because the writting is multilayered, and the upper layer is written specifically for casual readers. And to understand that upper layer, there's no need to read side stories, or the World Book. ASOIAF is a series of a universal books, for readers with varying levels of interest in the ASOIAF's Universe. There's no need to be an ASOIAF-expert, to enjoy reading them. The only difference, is that the "experts" are aware, that those books are actually more complicated, that they seems to be to a casual reader.

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The dude in the tree is a real character and a memorable one at that mentoring a major POV. Shiera was only forgetably mentioned once. Becoming a tree, you kind of expect a backstory coming...Not comparable.

Magician Merlin in the end of his life also became a tree, trapped in a cave, to sleep there eternally. You may think - and what that has to do with Bloodraven, or Shiera? There's many parallels between ASOIAF and Arthurian legends.

Excalibur was a magic sword, according to prophecy, whoever will be able to draw it out of stone, is the rightful King of Britain. Arthur was raised under different name, not knowing that his real parents were King Uther Pendragon and Igraine/Ygrayne. Queen Guinevere was cheating behind her husband's back, with his best knight Lancelot, and when that affair was discovered, it caused civil war in Britain.

Doesn't this ring a bell?

Coldhands called Bloodraven a wizard. It was the only time in the books, when this specific word was used to name someone. The other time it was written in ASOIAF, it was in AFFC, Arya II: "A man does not need to be a wizard to know truth from falsehood, not if he has eyes." Bloodraven needs to be a wizard, because he has no eyes, only one eye

Merlin was trapped in the cave, and binded to a tree, by his lover sorceress the Lady of the Lake. So it's likely, that it was Shiera, who lured Bloodraven to come to that cave. Same as she (under guise of 3EC) made Bran to go on his journey beyond The Wall.

[The Commentator]

Shiera Seastar got mentioned in a few obscure passages in the text and now we're ready to proclaim she's Quaithe.  I suppose it is possible but that does not explain why she would need to hide her face.  She is needlessly mysterious and gives advice rather than directly useful information.  Dany should be mindful but exercise care with any advice she gets from Quaithe.

[Lord Lannister]

On 4/23/2018 at 7:34 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

I couldn't agree more.  Okay, Dany does not employ Quaithe like say the Crown has employed Varys, but in Varys' own words or more or less "you got to give them something even if not the entire truth, just some of it... enough for them to believe in your worth."  Apart from probably Euron and even above Mel, if I were a character in the series, this one would be the one I would be lest comfortable in her presence lol  She really gives me the chills, I guess that is meant by the author lol  yes some truths but some a little simple like the lion, the cracken etc, well any book on sigils would tell you whose houses those are lol.  Quaithe is a bit "overqualified" for that simple description.  Yes, I do not believe that she has Dany's interest at heart for once.  I think this ultimately links with the dragons of course, now whether her aim is for them to be destroyed or brought to great glory for whatever reason not so sure but more inclined to think they want them destroyed (even if in the end this turns out to be the only viable way forward).  I find the fight between ice and fire and their religions etc very much like Celtic mythology Sheelie and Unseelie (Courts of Winter and Summer) and I cannot see either prevailing over the other as this upsets the balance...  Yet maybe dragons need to go for WWs to go back to sleep behind the Wall or something but the fire faction is not one I would trust per se...

I certainly think we are going to see activity around Oldtown in the books to come.  Euron has a connection too lol and well, although when I first came across Marwin I liked him (I guess I do like people who research innovative and sometimes unpopular or forbidden stuff) I had at the time forgotten the connection with Mirri and hey, this almost sounds as if I would cast down anyone who didn't finish colleague lol but I reckon there were good reasons to take the chain from Qyburn.  I just hope Sam can see through them and warn someone in time!

 

Well if Quaithe really wanted to help Dany, and has some hidden tap into the future, she wouldn't need to be all mysterious. A simple "The Harpy is so and so" and "Watch out Ben Plumm's going to betray you" would suffice. Being vague and mysterious only serves to have Dany second guessing everything and possibly paralyzing her in a moment of need. You may well be right about it being all about the dragons. I've suggested the possibility of Dany's main role being limited to bringing the dragons in the world and protecting them as they grow. Needless to say that was met with vehement criticism from a certain sect of the fanbase. It certainly almost seems like Viserion and Rhaegal could be on their own from here on out. From their point of view, mother locked them up and took off with the favorite child in Drogon.

Oldtown, you probably could've set the novels there with all the primary characters in the Citadel and it would've been interesting. From what little we've seen there's more than plenty of intrigue there. Marwin seems like he sees a bigger picture and seems a decent guy in the face of mindless bureaucracy. He tends to get painted with the negative stigma of training Miri, though that's not fair. Heck, I never really even blamed Miri for what she did, because I could see where she was coming from. Though that will complicate his introduction with Dany if he ever finds her.

Qyburn was always a character I enjoyed. There doesn't seem to be any particular malice behind him, even if he does questionable things. He really seems to see his service to the Lannisters just as a means to the end of furthering his knowledge. 

[Megorova]

23 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I suppose it is possible but that does not explain why she would need to hide her face. 

Because otherwise she would be instantly identified by Dany as Shiera Seastar, furthermore Dany will realise, that she has seen her before, when she was giving birth to Rhaego.

"the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky ~ Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one ~ After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."

Shiera had silver-gold hair, that with age probably became partially platinum white. And she had mismatched eyes, one blue and one green. Opals and tourmalines are bi-colored stones, blue and green colors together. And there are both blue and green variety of jades, and some amethysts has blue color, as their secondary hue. So that scene, about ghost kings, is a hint to Shiera Seastar, she's descendant of Targaryen Kings. And those swords of pale fire, are their Valyrian steel blades. When Shiera was helping Dany to deliver her baby, she wasn't wearing mask or hood, and Dany saw color of her eyes and hair, and her Valyrian features, and identified her as Shiera Seastar, her distant relative, that supposedly died long time ago, that's why she was seen by Dany as a ghosts of Targaryen kings. There was one person, one "ghost", not many of them, that's why they cried as one.

[Sea Dragon]

48 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Because otherwise she would be instantly identified by Dany as Shiera Seastar, furthermore Dany will realise, that she has seen her before, when she was giving birth to Rhaego.

"the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky ~ Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one ~ After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars."

Shiera had silver-gold hair, that with age probably became partially platinum white. And she had mismatched eyes, one blue and one green. Opals and tourmalines are bi-colored stones, blue and green colors together. And there are both blue and green variety of jades, and some amethysts has blue color, as their secondary hue. So that scene, about ghost kings, is a hint to Shiera Seastar, she's descendant of Targaryen Kings. And those swords of pale fire, are their Valyrian steel blades. When Shiera was helping Dany to deliver her baby, she wasn't wearing mask or hood, and Dany saw color of her eyes and hair, and her Valyrian features, and identified her as Shiera Seastar, her distant relative, that supposedly died long time ago, that's why she was seen by Dany as a ghosts of Targaryen kings. There was one person, one "ghost", not many of them, that's why they cried as one.

How can Danaerys instantly identify Shiera Seastar if she has never met her to heard of her? I don't mean to sound rude but that is silly. And are you saying that Shiera was there when Dany was unconscious and birthing Rhaego? I just used that search of ice and fire site and Danaerys never has Shiera or Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers talked about in any of her chapters. 

[Sea Dragon]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Shiera Seastar got mentioned in a few obscure passages in the text and now we're ready to proclaim she's Quaithe.  I suppose it is possible but that does not explain why she would need to hide her face.  She is needlessly mysterious and gives advice rather than directly useful information.  Dany should be mindful but exercise care with any advice she gets from Quaithe.

I agree. Shiera is set up as a past lover for the Bloodraven story. A surprise show up on page would seem weird and out of place. Danaerys should be mindful of the advice Quaithe gives her because we just don't know what all of these prophecies mean yet. 

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I don't think that he's a lousy writer. On the contrary, I think that his writting is multilayered and complicated. And that the casual reader will read his books, and will like them, even though he/she wouldn't even realise, that he/she totally didn't noticed 90% of "coded" information, that was hidden in the text. But it doesn't matter, because the writting is multilayered, and the upper layer is written specifically for casual readers. And to understand that upper layer, there's no need to read side stories, or the World Book. ASOIAF is a series of a universal books, for readers with varying levels of interest in the ASOIAF's Universe. There's no need to be an ASOIAF-expert, to enjoy reading them. The only difference, is that the "experts" are aware, that those books are actually more complicated, that they seems to be to a casual reader.

We got our wires crossed here. I agree with this.

What I was trying to say was I think theories need to pass a casual reader test in that I doubt the main books will take any direction which the casual reader (i.e., hasn't read outside the main 5 books and maybe not at that deep of a level) won't be able to understand. Unless Shiera is introduced in a significant way in TWOW to the casual reader before any reveal of Quaithe = Shiera, it won't make sense to any except those of us who spend time here.

[Lady Rhodes]

20 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

We got our wires crossed here. I agree with this.

What I was trying to say was I think theories need to pass a casual reader test in that I doubt the main books will take any direction which the casual reader (i.e., hasn't read outside the main 5 books and maybe not at that deep of a level) won't be able to understand. Unless Shiera is introduced in a significant way in TWOW to the casual reader before any reveal of Quaithe = Shiera, it won't make sense to any except those of us who spend time here.

I agree with this. Unless there is a major reveal, I doubt that Shiera will factor into the overall story very much.

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Magician Merlin in the end of his life also became a tree, trapped in a cave, to sleep there eternally. You may think - and what that has to do with Bloodraven, or Shiera? There's many parallels between ASOIAF and Arthurian legends.

Excalibur was a magic sword, according to prophecy, whoever will be able to draw it out of stone, is the rightful King of Britain. Arthur was raised under different name, not knowing that his real parents were King Uther Pendragon and Igraine/Ygrayne. Queen Guinevere was cheating behind her husband's back, with his best knight Lancelot, and when that affair was discovered, it caused civil war in Britain.

Doesn't this ring a bell?

Coldhands called Bloodraven a wizard. It was the only time in the books, when this specific word was used to name someone. The other time it was written in ASOIAF, it was in AFFC, Arya II: "A man does not need to be a wizard to know truth from falsehood, not if he has eyes." Bloodraven needs to be a wizard, because he has no eyes, only one eye

Merlin was trapped in the cave, and binded to a tree, by his lover sorceress the Lady of the Lake. So it's likely, that it was Shiera, who lured Bloodraven to come to that cave. Same as she (under guise of 3EC) made Bran to go on his journey beyond The Wall.

Illyrio called Varys a wizard when Arya was listening in which is quite an odd choice of words if Varys truly hates magic as he claims. They're mentioned fairly often if you look in A Search of Ice and Fire.

Just because there's a parallel doesn't mean it will happen. Real life or literary parallels are fun things to play with, but it needs to have evidence in the books. Steerpike in Gormenghast is a screaming inspiration and parallel for Littlefinger but that doesn't mean we can make any predictions from that.

Lots of things went into the pot of ASOIAF.

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Sea Dragon said:

How can Danaerys instantly identify Shiera Seastar if she has never met her to 1. heard of her? I don't mean to sound rude but that is silly. 2. And are you saying that Shiera was there when Dany was unconscious and birthing Rhaego? I just used that search of ice and fire site and Danaerys 3. never has Shiera or Bloodraven/Brynden Rivers talked about in any of her chapters. 

1. So you think, that Dany is uneducated, and she doesn't even know history of her own family?

2. She wasn't unconsciousness, she was delirious, but she saw and heard.

3. We don't know everything that she knows.

1 hour ago, Lollygag said:

Unless Shiera is introduced in a significant way in TWOW to the casual reader before any reveal of Quaithe = Shiera, it won't make sense to any except those of us who spend time here.

Prior Bloodraven appeared before Bran, in ADWD, chapter Bran III, he wasn't introduced to readers in some significant way. He was mentioned only once by maester Aemon, that he escorted him to The Wall, and later became Lord Commander. And that's all. Shiera also was mentioned in the books, twice:

Quote

"Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies when he might have made fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire and grief."

"I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

So we know that Shiera was a reason for some big civil confrontation, or rebellion happening in 7K, and many people died, because her half-brothers both loved her. She's an Apple of Discord between Bloodraven (Bran's teacher), and Bittersteel (founder of Golden Company). What other introductions does she needs?

[Lollygag]

12 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Prior Bloodraven appeared before Bran, in ADWD, chapter Bran III, he wasn't introduced to readers in some significant way. He was mentioned only once by maester Aemon, that he escorted him to The Wall, and later became Lord Commander. And that's all. Shiera also was mentioned in the books, twice:

So we know that Shiera was a reason for some big civil confrontation, or rebellion happening in 7K, and many people died, because her half-brothers both loved her. She's an Apple of Discord between Bloodraven (Bran's teacher), and Bittersteel (founder of Golden Company). What other introductions does she needs?

I'm done repeating myself.

[The Mother of The Others]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

So we know that Shiera was a reason for some big civil confrontation, or rebellion happening in 7K, and many people died, because her half-brothers both loved her. She's an Apple of Discord between Bloodraven (Bran's teacher), and Bittersteel (founder of Golden Company). What other introductions does she needs?

What are you getting from this toil?   From all of these tenuous desperate connections being made to Shiera.  Wet eyes, and the moonlight managing to locate Jon, as proofs!   I mean, the moon finds all sorts of jabronis to shine on, and for those of us who suffer from dry eyes at night Quaithe's wetness does seem magical and enviable, but at most it implies she has some emotional investment in Daenerys' destiny- - though not any particular identity among a sea of humans who cry. 

So, What has been delivered to our plate as readers if this is Quaithe's identity?  Because i know Sheira exists, i just don't know why this secret identity for Quaithe is worth walking so far out on a limb for.   Once made, this ID doesn't pass the test of being "something."    That was my objection.  Now i see the above ^.

So Seastar might be loyal to Bittersteal, not Raven?   She's wearing a mask because she feels guilty (doesn't want to risk exposure) about how she's co- opting Dany's quest for vengeance in order to combine it with her thing: the Blackfyre quest for vengeance.   (The golden & dothraki armies would have physically merged if not for Tyrion's meddling- - which officially marks Tyrion as a member of the Scooby Doo gang who will unmask this conspiracy.  But it's not a conspiracy Raven is in on, because he says he can't get Shiera to pick up the phone when he spies on her through the wier).   

So either Seastar wants to crush Raven's continent for what those lords did to Bittersteel, or she wants to reforge a united Targaryen dynasty that includes Blackfye blood?  She did after all warn Dany about Euron's approaching deal-with-the-devil offer.  If Seastar saw Dany only as a wrong- blooded Targ, a dragon incubator to now be discarded, then we would have heard Quaithe urge Dany Towards Victarion and the derailing of her autonomy. 

She also warned against Blackfyre falseness, probably, as well.   So that's odd.  Now it seems Quaithe isn't onboard with the Varys/illyrio ploy to join the two targs' forces.  This, despite how Aegon comes off as having a good spirit and the nerves of a proper conqueror.  A winner.   ...i sometimes set myself up for Ned Style Heartbreak 2:  Aegon & Daenerys Against the World.  They both seem like good kids, you know?   Plucky with a side of lucky.  What if combustible blackfyre secrets can be kept hidden until their newly forged bond is strong enough to overcome the fueding of the past and leave it in the past?  A vulnerable hope, that.  Like Ned's attempt to drain the KL swamp was doomed to unravel to our chagrin.  But if this succeeds, and Raven gets to add his guy Jon as the third head, it might allow the old ghosts like Shiera and Raven and Night King and the Hightowers & maesters to finish their unfinished business and rest in peace, resolving their guilt about the wound they carved into Westerosi history. 

 It all hinges on which direction we're going in with Dany's "slayer of lies" deal.   Maybe it'll be politics as usual.  Slay the lie that Aegon is in line for the throne.  (Bad for Aegon, more bad news for the realm).   Maybe the lie is that any of this matters in humanity's current situation.  (Slay the fued!  Slay politics as usual!)   Was there a lie or betrayal that doomed the Others to forever walk the northern wastes pissed off?  Slay that!  (with Aegon's help).

...Option 37:  Shiera and Raven have moved beyond politics to grapple with the world's bigger magic exigencies, like solving the looming Other problem by putting a Dragon deterrent in position, or perhaps prepping Westeros for some even more obscure form of fire & ice interaction  ("Song") (magical solution) that might take place between the Powers when they meet at long last to sort things out.

So is this why you're so high on Quaithe being Seastar?  Because it may provide a solid motive for all the wacky Essos machinations we're seeing from Quaithe, illyrio, etc. ?   And in some way the ending will involve a dramatic showdown with Bloodraven saying to Shiera, "oh no you didn't!  now it's personal!"

[Morgana Lannister]

7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Well if Quaithe really wanted to help Dany, and has some hidden tap into the future, she wouldn't need to be all mysterious. A simple "The Harpy is so and so" and "Watch out Ben Plumm's going to betray you" would suffice. Being vague and mysterious only serves to have Dany second guessing everything and possibly paralyzing her in a moment of need. You may well be right about it being all about the dragons. I've suggested the possibility of Dany's main role being limited to bringing the dragons in the world and protecting them as they grow. Needless to say that was met with vehement criticism from a certain sect of the fanbase. It certainly almost seems like Viserion and Rhaegal could be on their own from here on out. From their point of view, mother locked them up and took off with the favorite child in Drogon.

Oldtown, you probably could've set the novels there with all the primary characters in the Citadel and it would've been interesting. From what little we've seen there's more than plenty of intrigue there. Marwin seems like he sees a bigger picture and seems a decent guy in the face of mindless bureaucracy. He tends to get painted with the negative stigma of training Miri, though that's not fair. Heck, I never really even blamed Miri for what she did, because I could see where she was coming from. Though that will complicate his introduction with Dany if he ever finds her.

Qyburn was always a character I enjoyed. There doesn't seem to be any particular malice behind him, even if he does questionable things. He really seems to see his service to the Lannisters just as a means to the end of furthering his knowledge. 

As for the ehtics, sure Dany is grey as is Tyrion but not viseral evil like that witch of the Lazhareen!  Besides the Lazhareen bitch didn't make a lot of sense to me plot wise; I take what she said but  Vany wanted to put a stop to it;;  to me regardless us, outcom-wise she had to be, allowed but her victim role to win!

I usually love magic in a fantasy, in this one I mistrust it as hell!!!  As it is meant to do give me the shivers and I prefer for my loved characters to win without it!

 

Why??? if i love magic etc...

[chrisdaw]

No reason Shiera = Quaithe will need to be understood by the casual reader of the series. It'll simply be added depth for those who want to go looking for it, same as the whole blackfyre rebellion.

[Bitterblooms]

On 4/22/2018 at 4:57 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

GRRM does not do convenient loose ends plot wrap ups. Marwyn has access to a glass candle, and we can assume quaithe does to, but that is it.  The "everyone is secretly everyone else" threads are old and tired now that there the author is pushing a decade between book releases   

I don't know why people say this. In several of his short stories I've been particularly impressed with how neatly the story was tied up at the end. As for asoiaf, we don't know what he will do with loose ends yet because, well, it's not the end of the story yet. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 4/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, Orphalesion said:

Quaithe is the mother and daughter of Mellisandre.

No but seriously, I'd say Quaithe of Asshai is Quaithe of Asshai and nobody else.

Well of course she's Quaithe now. The question is who was she before, silly!  Melisandre was Melony before she was bought by the R'hllorists (if in fact it was her own sale she was remembering). Hmm. Maybe we need to look for missing female characters whose names begin with Q...

On 4/23/2018 at 8:47 PM, The Mother of The Others said:

<snippety, snip, snip, snip

  I always love your posts, TMoTO.  

 

As for the rest of the thread...

Quaithe is Sarella only if Sarella has been borrowing LF's or Varys' jetpack. You cannot leave the Citadel to travel to the Red Waste/Qarth and back, missing all your classes for weeks at a time, and not have it be an issue with your professors. Marwyn's influence isn't great enough to get you a month or more of get-out-of-class-and-homework-free cards.

The reaction to a Quaithe as Sheira reveal if we had no internet would be... "Huh?" up until she meets up with Bloodraven. Then it would be "Cool!"

Speaking as an author it is not true that each word is a conscious decision. Many are very conscious and deliberate, but many are also automatic and/or just for set-dressing. Remember, sometimes the curtains are just blue. Points if you get the reference.

If we're connecting "wet and shiny" with the sea and stars, we are also connecting Ashara Dayne, who was last seen (supposedly) jumping into the sea, and whose house sigil is a shooting/falling star. Ran has said that Ashara is Quaithe, though he may well have been joking.

Keep in mind that all of the really important mysteries in the series can be solved using clues from AGOT. That may have no bearing on Quaithe's identity, because her identity may just not be remotely important.

@Widowmaker 811  shadowbinders routinely wear masks. It's part of their thing. It may be that Mel doesn't because she's glamoured. IIRC the reason for the masks is to hide their identities from gods and demons in Asshai. 

@The Mother of the Others..."Oh no you didn't, now it's personal."  I would totally read that version!

I'm fine with Quaithe being Ashara, or Sheira, or the glamoured twin sister of the Ghost of High Heart. But some of the arguments being used in this thread are flat-out wrong.

[Lollygag]

29 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The reaction to a Quaithe as Sheira reveal if we had no internet would be... "Huh?" up until she meets up with Bloodraven. Then it would be "Cool!"

Speaking as an author it is not true that each word is a conscious decision. Many are very conscious and deliberate, but many are also automatic and/or just for set-dressing. Remember, sometimes the curtains are just blue. Points if you get the reference.

You might think it's cool. But I don't know the backstory beyond a rough idea nor do I care. It would need to be introduced into TWOW for me to care. I need to be sold and the "huh?" casual reader would need some fill-in too. That Quaithe and the tree dude did some incest banging back in the day, ugh... It brings the story down for me and detracts from Dany's and Bran's arcs. I think the opinions in the Fire and Blood thread show me not to be the only one on this.

Set-dressing is a conscious decision. Blue was chosen over yellow, red, plaid, purple with pink polka dots or no curtains at all. And any subconscious decisions which come up were retained in the editing process. Which makes them conscious decisions.

I paint. The canvas and page both start out completely white, nothing. Any paint put down stays there because I looked at it carefully, very carefully, and decided it should stay.

[Lord Lannister]

5 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

As for the ehtics, sure Dany is grey as is Tyrion but not viseral evil like that witch of the Lazhareen!  Besides the Lazhareen bitch didn't make a lot of sense to me plot wise; I take what she said but  Vany wanted to put a stop to it;;  to me regardless us, outcom-wise she had to be, allowed but her victim role to win!

I usually love magic in a fantasy, in this one I mistrust it as hell!!!  As it is meant to do give me the shivers and I prefer for my loved characters to win without it!

 

Why??? if i love magic etc...

I'm a fan of the fantasy genre as well, but oddly enough I think the supernatural elements of this series are often it's weakest points. I enjoy that magic in this series is typically more subtle than not. MMD's certainly had a scary element to them, but isn't magic supposed to be fearful at times? Did she go overboard? Probably so. But I have a hard time assigning blame to her for her actions. She watched everyone and everything she loved get destroyed, was gangraped and then expected to be grateful for being "saved" by Dany. I'm not sure if she poisoned Drogo or not given he tore off the healing poultices, but given Rhaego was supposed to be the Stallion who Mounts the World, and the bringer of what she and her people suffered to all, I can see why she acted against him. She didn't harm Dany(except perhaps for her womb, though I don't consider her hate filled statements exactly reliable) when she had every chance. If she had done the same thing to Tywin, Joffrey, Ramsay or someone like that she's be a heroine, but since Dany was involved she's vilified more than she deserves I think.