"The Others Take You"

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:44 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

o it wouldn't make sense for the Others to have to offer protection to Craster for providing babies if these babies were just to become wights, since anyone dead will do lol so that is why I conclude (in the absence of further info) that they are turning them into WWs, i.e. elite within the Others' hierarchy in some level.

In the old synopsis and book descriptions for the Others, they are referred to as the "neverborn." So they probably cannot procreate the way the warm blooded creatures do. I vaguely remember GRRM mentioning that passion generates heat, or something like that in the books (or was it another story?) The Others disintegrate in the presence of heat. So they probably can't reproduce the mammalian way. 

The babies were never going to be wights, because how useless would that be? Babies can't walk or fight. So there's definitely another purpose for that. In AWOIAF, it's mentioned that there are no children in Asshai, and no animals. So this probably plays into it. We wouldn't know how until TWOW is released. 

On 5/12/2018 at 10:44 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

I am sorry if I did not expressed myself correctly or clearly.  No, I don't believe humanity is under threat from the Kings in the North (that we know of) but there is a strong connection between the Night King and the Starks which has been hinted at numerous times (again, as always I could be wrong and George could have tried to mislead us via Old Nana etc).  My thought is that they could be vulnerable in their graves (they were not burnt) without the swords and could awake as wights or something (or WWs).  Also, if it turns out that it is true that the Night King was a Stark mortal once he might have a "special interest" in enlisting his kin. 

Do you mean the Night's King? The Night King exists only in the show as the leader of the WW or something. In the books, the Night's King is a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He's not explicitly mentioned as a Stark, but could be. In any case, the Starks descend from the First Men. Considering the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander, he probably had First Men's blood too. 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

1 hour ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

In the old synopsis and book descriptions for the Others, they are referred to as the "neverborn." So they probably cannot procreate the way the warm blooded creatures do. I vaguely remember GRRM mentioning that passion generates heat, or something like that in the books (or was it another story?) The Others disintegrate in the presence of heat. So they probably can't reproduce the mammalian way. 

The babies were never going to be wights, because how useless would that be? Babies can't walk or fight. So there's definitely another purpose for that. In AWOIAF, it's mentioned that there are no children in Asshai, and no animals. So this probably plays into it. We wouldn't know how until TWOW is released. 

Do you mean the Night's King? The Night King exists only in the show as the leader of the WW or something. In the books, the Night's King is a former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. He's not explicitly mentioned as a Stark, but could be. In any case, the Starks descend from the First Men. Considering the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander, he probably had First Men's blood too. 

 

Yes, I am pretty sure they cannot reproduce in the way we do lol  Now, I must be getting senile but I can't remember if this is in the books or the show (more likely books somewhere) that this Night's King (the former Lord Commander) mated with a female Other but by all means, anyone, refresh my memory if you wish.  To be honest, I cannot imagine what the Others could be doing with Craster's male newborns and it is interesting that they only take the males.  Now, are there any female WWs?  There are certainly wight ones though...  Okay, this may just be TV show but I guess it applies to both media since they take whatever corpses are available for that purpose, animals included.  Now, I agree that they cannot stay babies as this would be useless.  Maybe they just need their DNA, or something equivalent in world, but it seems obvious to me that they need these babies for a reason, babies who are human.  It may even be a requirement that they have the blood of the First Men, but this is just guess work and further speculation on my part lol.  Now that I think of it, okay Craster mates with his daughters because that is what he has available.  However, just like the Targs do it to keep the bloodlines pure it may turn out that he needs to do this to to fulfil his bargain with the Others, i.e. backing up my theory of the pure blood of the First Men or something but hey, as I said, I could well be wrong.

Now, thank you for pointing out about Asshai re no children or animals, wow, had totally forgotten.  Asshai is a place that I would definitely fear...  I wonder if they are all undeads or something.  I reckon this deserves a topic in itself and again, thanks so much for mentioning.

The way I view this environmental / power crises they are having is as some sort of imbalance between fire (Summer) and ice (Winter) as per the Seelie and Unseelie Celtic fairy mythology, although of course with some tweaks from George.

As for the Night King/Night's King yeah I was referring to the books' version but I don't think they are that far apart actually, but yes the one that was once Lord Commander.  Wasn't he the one who mated with the female Other according to legend?  I haven't got the books at hand right this minute but there are definitely hints re he being a Stark.  Also the connection with Bran the Builder appears more than coincidental although he probably was just someone (the Builder) who knew enough to build strong protections around the Wall and WF and possibly other buildings which would indicate strong exposure to the Others I guess...

C'mon George, give us the book!!!  It's fun to brainstorm and speculate though in the meantime

[Morgana Lannister]

On 4/29/2018 at 4:56 PM, LynnS said:

The Others also use your eyes once you've been taken whether you actually have eyes or not:
 

 

Oh, another interesting "catch."   Until now I had always asume that their eyes are blue once they become Others, I don't know, to differentiate them from humans in world, I guess... but there must be more to it than that.  What do they "see" or "sense" with these blue eyes (more or less than before???).  Does the eye replacement means they do no longer remember who they were???  Okay, this ain't fool-proof but when the former members of the NW attacked Commander Mormont it looks as if they knew him but they had changed alegiance.  I need to read that scene again because this could be important, i.e. do they preserve memories?

Do the blue eyes provide advantages? I am sure we do not have enough canon info yet but my wager is on "yes."  They have to.  It is possible that this is just a cosmetic feature but it has too much potential narratively speaking and after all, as they say "the eyes are the mirror of the soul."  I could even contemplate, in theory, the possibility that the Others are "assimilated" as per science fiction and that they are part of a collective ruled mentally either by the founder or a small group a la Small Council... and that their blue eyes (which are not of a hue human eyes can be) means they are all the same or something.  But, whatever the weather (pardon the silly pun) I think they can see or sense things mortals cannot.

[LynnS]

20 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Oh, another interesting "catch."   Until now I had always asume that their eyes are blue once they become Others, I don't know, to differentiate them from humans in world, I guess... but there must be more to it than that.  What do they "see" or "sense" with these blue eyes (more or less than before???).  Does the eye replacement means they do no longer remember who they were???  Okay, this ain't fool-proof but when the former members of the NW attacked Commander Mormont it looks as if they knew him but they had changed alegiance.  I need to read that scene again because this could be important, i.e. do they preserve memories?

Do the blue eyes provide advantages? I am sure we do not have enough canon info yet but my wager is on "yes."  They have to.  It is possible that this is just a cosmetic feature but it has too much potential narratively speaking and after all, as they say "the eyes are the mirror of the soul."  I could even contemplate, in theory, the possibility that the Others are "assimilated" as per science fiction and that they are part of a collective ruled mentally either by the founder or a small group a la Small Council... and that their blue eyes (which are not of a hue human eyes can be) means they are all the same or something.  But, whatever the weather (pardon the silly pun) I think they can see or sense things mortals cannot.

In the fifth century BCE, Empedocles postulated that everything was composed of four elements; fire, air, earth, and water. He believed that Aphrodite made the human eye out of the four elements and that she lit the fire in the eye which shone out from the eye, making sight possible. - wikipedia

We know that the red lot use fire to 'see' and that wights go up in flames like a candle.  I can only assume that the blue fire in Thistle's eye-sockets allow someone or something to see.

[Morgana Lannister]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

In the fifth century BCE, Empedocles postulated that everything was composed of four elements; fire, air, earth, and water. He believed that Aphrodite made the human eye out of the four elements and that she lit the fire in the eye which shone out from the eye, making sight possible. - wikipedia

No disrespect at all and I am well aware of the four elements, which I believe they go back to Ancient Greece,  but could you kindly expand on this re this topic because I am hugely intriged and I would like to know more lol

[LynnS]

24 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

No disrespect at all and I am well aware of the four elements, which I believe they go back to Ancient Greece,  but could you kindly expand on this re this topic because I am hugely intriged and I would like to know more lol

It's not that I know anything.  I am responding to the question about seeing using fire and the fact that Thistle clawed her eyes out and Varamyr saw blue flames in her eye sockets.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Prologue

The things below moved, but did not live. One by one, they raised their heads toward the three wolves on the hill. The last to look was the thing that had been Thistle. She wore wool and fur and leather, and over that she wore a coat of hoarfrost that crackled when she moved and glistened in the moonlight. Pale pink icicles hung from her fingertips, ten long knives of frozen blood. And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickering, lending her coarse features an eerie beauty they had never known in life.

She sees me.

 

So I suppose my question is whether Thistle sees anything at all or whether someone using using her to see through the blue flame.

And also is the story of Aphrodite lighting fire in the eye being used used by Martin in some way.  Are we looking for a female antagonist? 

 

 

[Morgana Lannister]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's not that I know anything.  I am responding to the question about seeing using fire and the fact that Thistle clawed her eyes out and Varamyr saw blue flames in her eye sockets.

 

So I suppose my question is whether Thistle sees anything at all or whether someone using using her to see through the blue flame.

And also is the story of Aphrodite lighting fire in the eye being used used by Martin in some way.  Are we looking for a female antagonist? 

 

 

Wow, my dear, your attention to detail is awesome!  Okay, granted, I am not great with detail, especially warging chapters.  Ironically, although I love the theme of the ultimate war with the less human elements, chapters like that prologue, on a first read, I tend to find dull and I want to know more about the main characters.  But how wrong could I be!!! lol  That is a huge catch and it seems to support my "semi-cooked" theory that they loose at least a big part of their humanity and memories as they "assimilate."  Still, we can only speculate, as George is keeping us in the dark on purpose for now lol.

I guess Thistle is going through a transformation not alike, say, a human becoming a vampire or something in literature.  So I guess she will have to adapt a bit but I am still thinking that Other's eyes (those blue eyes) sense things we do not, or else why the emphasis!

I have to say you are making me think about stuff that hadn't crossed my mind until now, even after several re-reads lol and for that I am grateful lol

Martin seems to take from very many sources and do his own thing lol, hence he is so great IMHO.  Now, not following why you mention the need for a female antagonist, other than Afrrodita is a female goddess.  Also you mean antagonist to the Others, to humanity or to fire???  In any event, if I had to put 10 dollars on it I would go for Quaithe as female antagonist.  Not sure exactly what she is antagonist to but if I saw her in real life I would run a mile from her for sure.  I don't think she is a deity but my bet is on immortal.  I think Mel is just like her maid or something...  Now, when talking about mythology and stuff happening in ASOIAF we have to consider Euron too.  I think he will succeed at making himself some sort of deity.  It won't pan out for him in the end, I don't think, but he will certainly give our main characters "something to fight" "me thinks"...

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Wow, my dear, your attention to detail is awesome!  Okay, granted, I am not great with detail, especially warging chapters.  Ironically, although I love the theme of the ultimate war with the less human elements, chapters like that prologue, on a first read, I tend to find dull and I want to know more about the main characters.  But how wrong could I be!!! lol  That is a huge catch and it seems to support my "semi-cooked" theory that they loose at least a big part of their humanity and memories as they "assimilate."  Still, we can only speculate, as George is keeping us in the dark on purpose for now lol.

I guess Thistle is going through a transformation not alike, say, a human becoming a vampire or something in literature.  So I guess she will have to adapt a bit but I am still thinking that Other's eyes (those blue eyes) sense things we do not, or else why the emphasis!

I have to say you are making me think about stuff that hadn't crossed my mind until now, even after several re-reads lol and for that I am grateful lol

Martin seems to take from very many sources and do his own thing lol, hence he is so great IMHO.  Now, not following why you mention the need for a female antagonist, other than Afrrodita is a female goddess.  Also you mean antagonist to the Others, to humanity or to fire???  In any event, if I had to put 10 dollars on it I would go for Quaithe as female antagonist.  Not sure exactly what she is antagonist to but if I saw her in real life I would run a mile from her for sure.  I don't think she is a deity but my bet is on immortal.  I think Mel is just like her maid or something...  Now, when talking about mythology and stuff happening in ASOIAF we have to consider Euron too.  I think he will succeed at making himself some sort of deity.  It won't pan out for him in the end, I don't think, but he will certainly give our main characters "something to fight" "me thinks"...

The thing about warging is that one recognizes the other even in when they are skinchanged.  So when Varamyr says "she sees me", his soul has already joined One-Eye.  The statement is somewhat open to interpretation.  What is implied is that "Thistle" sees Varamyr rather than just the wolf.  Is it Thistle at all anymore? In other words, who is 'she'.  We assume he is speaking of Thistle but what if it isn't?  What if Varamyr can also see the soul within.

I'm reminded that both Dany and Mel can't see past the direwolf to the soul beneath; that they are blocked in some way.  For example, Mel sees Bran and Bloodraven in her fires - a boy with a wolf's head, but she can't see his face or identify him.  Dany has a vision of Rob with a wolf's head.  Dany sees a great wolf and a man limned in flame during MMD's ritual.  She can see the soul of the man "limned in flame" but not the soul of the great wolf.  

Mel is looking for the Great Other and sees a boy with a wolf's head, an old man like a tree and one other whom she dismisses because he doesn't look like some evil monster.  I suspect she sees Hodor and these three: the wolf, the tree and the man are the forms that Bran takes when he skinchanges.  Mel can't see past the 'skins' Bran uses.  As Bran says "he can see them, but they can't see him".

So is Mel looking for the Great Other or the Great Mother?