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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Asha - Spoilers for ADwD

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IIRC, Asha knows at least something about Dany's dragons - that they exist and that Euron intends to get them. Would be very interesting if first Stannis, and then Melissandre and perhaps Jon find out (Asha might volunteer the info). How will they react? They need dragons, so sending an envoy would probably be considered by both Jon and Stannis.

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I do wonder at Asha thinking Deepwood would fall before Torrhen's Square -- are you sure? Unless you're assuming that Roose and his son would go from Moat Cailin to the Dreadfort before they marched on the castles the ironborn held, it seems to me that Torrhen's Square is a great deal closer to them than Deepwood Motte.

It doesn't make sense for the Boltons to attack Moat Cailin then move all the way to Deepwood Motte. Take DM, then move south yet again to take Torren's Square. If Ramsey has two armies (one southern force against MC and a northen force against DM) then it might make sense for him to take DM first. Allowing him to come against Torren's Square from all sides.

I tend to agree with you that if we aren't clearly told someone is dead that we shouldn't necessarily assume it. Folks get captured all the time in the books, and Stannis is not one to order needless slaughter especially if he thinks prisoners might be able to give him useful information.

True, A lot of the Western Lords were reported dead fighting Robb only to turn up captured. However, while Stannis might not be favoring needless slaughter I can see the Ironborn fighting on till the bitter end since they can't really expect any mercy. Getting captured and traded back to the Iron Isles might actually be for the worst since Euron isn't the most forgiving guy around.

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However, while Stannis might not be favoring needless slaughter I can see the Ironborn fighting on till the bitter end since they can't really expect any mercy. Getting captured and traded back to the Iron Isles might actually be for the worst since Euron isn't the most forgiving guy around

Yes, that was my impression regarding the events in that chapter. The war in the North was rather nasty with Theon's presumed flaying, the supposed killing of the Stark children etc. The battle had the ingredients of a last stand. So while Qarl, Asha and Tris could all survive, I am not at all sure that they will.

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Tris Botley actually makes a better impression in this chapter. He and Asha are discussing the possibilities of what Asha can do at one point. Her choices are to go back to the islands to her husband; try to work with Stannis (possibly to get some land along the shore, like she mentioned wanting to do in AFfC?); sail south and become a pirate; sail south and become a trader.

So, Tris actually comes off well in this chapter? He wasn't exactly impressive in AFFC. What's his advice to Asha? Any mentions of the other Botley's? Tris' brothers, uncle Germund etc.

The fight at the end is long and very well done. There is one guy (whose name I cannot remember) who is counting his kills just like Gimli the dwark in Tolkien's work. It was not clear, at least to me, who was alive at the end besides Asha. But, seeing as how unless I actually read of someone being cut down or a character recalls seeing them killed, I presume someone is alive. Therefore, I don't think that either Tris, who was actually fighting well on his horse, or Qarl, were killed at the time that Asha lost consciousness. The tree roots broke her ankle, I believe.

So, what was him up to, 10, 15, 20 men? Any chance of him appearing again?

So Tris actually can fight? I pictured him as lazy noble with Sam's aptitude for fighting. I always wondered what Tris was doing as one of Asha's champions at the Kingsmoot.

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Yeah, I can see why Stannis may be lenient with Asha. But Theon the Turncloak, murderer of children? Stannis cut off the end of Davos' fingers for smuggling. What would he do for the murder of the "Stark" children? I guess it doesn't really matter. Stannis wants the Boltons out of the way, and Theon's (or Arya's) presence the Dreadfort may give him the excuse he needs. But in the end I still think Mel will burn Theon anyway.

Actually, I see this as an oppurtunity for Theon to come clean and reveal that Bran and Rickon are still alive. Stannis has every reason to believe him, as long as he swears fealty to him, and helps him reclaim the Iron Islands with Asha.

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I confess I fail to see why so many people are confused about the force attacking Deepwood Motte. From the reports (and thanks to the reporters, btw), I thought it obvious that Stannis used a strategy similar to the one he used when fighting the wildlings at the Wall: send in the troops native to the terrain first (to hide the true nature of the attackers, to find any hidden surprises, and to draw out the defenders), then have his main host move in once the defenders have committed, then lead the rearguard in to defeat spots of resistance.

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The initial reports suggested Torrhen's Square had already fallen. This would make sense if the Boltons were in the vicinity and were the northmen attacking Deepwood. It doesn't make sense if it's Stannis, on the other hand, since Deepwood we know Deepwood is his initial target -- it's closer, for one thing.

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I don't see that Stannis would be all fired up to execute either Asha or Theon. Stannis is tough and inflexible, yes, but at the same time he knows when people are valuable, and will swallow his pride to get them in his camp. He did this with the storm lords, who had brassed him off alot more than any Greyjoy.

A Stannis-Asha alliance is intriguing. Stannis defeated Victarion himself at sea, and I'm guessing the ironborn have to hold at least a grudging respect for that. Euron's not popular, soon to be halfway across the world, and was breathtakingly foolish enough to attack the Tyrells...all of this is good reason why the ironborn may soon decide that new leadership is needed.

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BTW, I edited the initial post to reflect that it was Moat Caillin that the IB have already lost, not Torrhen's Square. Based on what the others who were there have said, I must have been confused about that point.

I remember TS was mentioned as well, just not the context.

ETA: I just gave into temptation and read the 2nd Jon chapter. Wish I'd done so sooner, as it makes some things from this chapter clearer.

(ETA: Eeek, OMG, Parris is reading this thread. I hope she's at least getting a chuckle out of anything important that I overlooked or misunderstood. :stunned: )

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I could totally see someone other than Stannis executing Theon to win the support of the North. But I don't think Stannis will; Stannis wouldn't do something so realpolitik. Either Theon committed crimes against the crown and should be killed as a traitor, or he didn't - but there's no gray in Stannis.

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Regina,

Anything in particular leap out at you regarding the Asha chapter after reading the Jon chapter, or vice versa? :)

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Well, I do wish I had read this quote from the Jon 2 spoiler thread before going to the reading: :)

jon says that deepwood motte is the best place to start the war for the north. it's the closest to the wall, easy to creep up on, made of timber, and most importantly, in the hands of the ironmen, not northmen. restoring the castle to it's rightful owners is a good thing (said by jon or stannis, i don't remember). stannis can't afford to get mixed up with the umbers, so he suggests that stannis cross a goat track through the mountains and emerge at gates of deepwood motte. the people there are petty lords, not umbers (flint, big bucket, etc.). jon says that the norrys will help - they are friends of the night watch.

I think I would have been less confused as to who exactly was opposing Asha, as this sets up her chapter nicely. Seems to me that Stannis took Jon's advice.

Pod--the Flints get mentioned here as well. I think we were correct, and that one of the men in Asha's chapter was identified as a Flint.

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Kalbear;

Theon murdered children. That should be enough for Stannis.

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Theon murdered children. That should be enough for Stannis.
Not sure it would be, given what he was willing to do with Edric. Hell, given the circumstances involved - Theon chasing after his hostages who had given him their word - I'm not sure that Stannis wouldn't side with Theon. Can't you see Stannis executing his prisoners after they escaped, even if they were children, because it is what 'justice demands'?

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It's possible that Stannis will pardon Theon much like he did with the Stormlords - because he needs them/him. I don't think he will follow the "escaped hostages can be killed" route, though. He can't even use it at all if Theon confesses that he killed 2 other children.

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No, that's true. If Theon admits to killing innocent kids in place of Bran and Rickon Stannis will pretty much have to kill him. But I do think that Theon has a reasonable legal case for killing hostages if they escape after killing guards and whatnot, and Stannis wouldn't be forced to kill him.

I like this route too - because it means that Stannis and Theon would be allied, and wouldn't that put a kink in Jon's nose?

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As much as it was a bit of a blur and I was distracted by the 8 year old child in front of me :stunned:

The chapter title was The Wayward Bride , I remember that 100% 'cos I thought it was deadly .

I am pretty sure the tumpets sounded at the start of battle .

Looked like Qarl the Maid was pretty much into Asha from where I was listening from . The sex was hot . Nice departure into some BDSM there from George - the scurvy dog .

I also agree that one of the men with Asha was named as a Flint - I can't remember the context though .

Asha well kicked arse , I really enjoyed the description of the nekkid Ironborn woman , Asha's throwing axe moments and the guy doing the count . I cannot remember who he is though , which is a shame .

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Kalbear;

It would go very badly with Jon, and probably with potential northern allies for Stannis as well. Especially among the - Stark loyal - mountain clans, who seem to be his allies now judging by the Asha chapter.

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I agree with Wouter. If Stannis were to enlist Theon then he would lose a lot of support from those still loyal to the Starks. Winning the North is more important to Stannis right now. If he wins his brothers throne he can later put down Euron's rebellion and place Asha on the Seastone chair.

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If Theon is freed he would have some interesting connundrums. He could tell Stannis that Bran and Rickon may still be alive (and thus getting the other northmen off his back but it would be hard for Stannis to justify killing such innocents) or he can say he was just killing escaped prisoners (and thus been more justified in Stannis's eyes but insuring Stannis's Northern allies will hate Theon). Of course there are other issues. People are unlikely to believe him since it would be rather convenient if he didn't "really" kill the Stark children. OTOH, how in the world did Theon kill a cripple and a child, even if they were escaping? He'd have to at least pretend the Starks got help from some quarter, which complicated the hunt.

Stannis has enough to kill him if he wants or to keep him alive. I'm sure Asha is safe but Theon is another story. He comes with a lot of baggage. I think he'll survive just because he can be useful. From Asha's chapter it really does look like any challenger from those that attended the kingsmoot would be treated very badly by the Ironborn in general (they have their own code of honour). Since I doubt he even considered Theon's return, I think Euron's plans weren't that flawed.

Urizen, as mentioned earlier he advises Asha to flee. She didn't have the men to hold DM for long and there was little chance of reinforcements. No mention of the other Botleys. And the Ironman was up to around 8 I think. And yes, seems Tris can fight.

Another thing that was mentioned was that Stannis won a battle on one of the Iron Isles during Balon's rebellion also. Old Wykk? Probably not.

Thanks Asha for the name of the chapter. Not the first time I forgot the name of something. :P

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