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Details, details, details part III


The Adequate Jon

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I'm starting my first post AFfC entire-series re-read - the whole song of Ice and Fire from W to y.

I've picked up a couple of things so far (halfway through AGoT).

When asked by Arya whether Bran will join them at King's Landing now he's regained consciousness, Ned says "not for a long time". He (like Martin) *doesn't* add a foreshadowing "maybe never" - that kind of statement that has no logical place in a conversation but is included crudely to chill us has always bugged me. I felt a little thrill of warmth that Martin didn't take that opportunity.

Ned gives Arya a lot of advice about sticking with your friends in hard times (beyond the oft quoted "the lone wolf dies, the pack survives").

I'm reminded again of how utterly inadequate and ineffectual most of Ned's men are, at least compared to the Characters available to the other powers, especially the Lannisters.

More specifically, while lamenting that her father sent Beric Dondarrion rather than Loras Tyrell to bring in Gregor Clegane, Sansa reflects that her friend Jeyne Poole is in love with Beric, but Beric is a lord, and wouldn't look twice at a steward's daughter. Despite this Beric ends up a champion of the comman man, with his egalitarian Knights of the Hollow Hill.

Despite arranging for her to learn swordcraft, Ned doesn't try to teach Arya other "masculine" virtues, such as statecraft.

[sorry - I somehow posted the above three times.]

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I think you're a little harsh on Ned's men there - they get completely taken by surprise when the Lannisters attack and really don't stand a chance. The blame lies more with Ned: for not telling them to be on their guard at that point (I'm assuming he didn't, otherwise they'd surely have put up more of a fight), and possibly also for not bringing a larger Northern contingent to court - it might have been sensible to ask one of the other lords to come to help give him more of a power base. Power politics are really not Ned's thing, though... More broadly, actually, what really struck me when I re-read the series was Ned's naivety and constant mis-steps. I think Martin sets up a very nice parallel in the first two books between Ned's and Tyrion's time as Hand, and after seeing how Tyrion goes about things it really brings home how badly Ned fucks up.

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Guest Other-in-law

Ned would have faired better if he took a page from Roose Bolton's book...give the super risky assignments to someone else's forces and keep your own power intact. Ned not only loaned his guards out to Gold Claoks, he also diminished them by sending a bunch out with Beric.

Another very interesting 'what if?'....had Ned sent Loras out with Beric against Gregor, could Mace have ever swallowed his hate and allied himself with the Lannisters? That's assuming Loras was killed, but if his force was defeated and he survived to go running back home with his tail between his legs, the wounded pride might have been nearly as bad.

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Sansa reflects that her friend Jeyne Poole is in love with Beric, but Beric is a lord, and wouldn't look twice at a steward's daughter. Despite this Beric ends up a champion of the comman man, with his egalitarian Knights of the Hollow Hill.

... and Jeyne ends up as miss Ramsay Bolton, who will be lord after Roose dies :thumbsup:

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I'm also in the midst of re-reading the series. It is interesting the to notice how many events occur to pre-figure a later, similar occurrence. The last thread had some posts about how Arya throwing the orange at Sansa which stains her dress in AGOT prefigures the scene in ACOK where Sansa menstrates for the first time.

Another of these echoes or prefigurations is the scene between Tyrion and the Hound (both from ACOK):

After the riot which follows Myrcella's send-off to Dorne, and the Hound and Sansa have returned to the keep, Tyrion orders the Hound back out to help put out the spreading fire. For a second Tyrion thinks the Hound is going to refuse, and he realizes the Hound is afraid of fire: "The Others take me, of course he hates fire, he's tasted it too well." However, the Hound says he'll do it: "I need to find that horse."

Later, during the Battle of the Blackwater, Tyrion again orders the Hound back out into the city, and this time the Hound does refuse. Tyrion realizes the Hound is completely spent: He is afraid. The Hound is frightened. The Hound also says here that he has lost his horse (again).

From Tyrion's perspective, the first scene enables Tyrion to grasp very quickly in the second scene that the Hound is done, and forces Tyrion to actively participate in the fighting, which he manages to avoid in the first scene. From the Hound's perspective, the second scene is also then more believable as something so devastating to the Hound that he goes from the battle to Sansa's bedroom and then out of KL completely. The Battle of the Blackwater is the straw (a big one) that finally breaks him completely.

Note: We never find out how Sandor gets his horse back. Possibly an oversight? This bothers me since I doubt Sandor was able to go out into the city and find Stranger during or after the Blackwater Battle, as he was a total mess at that point.

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You're right, I am a bit harsh on Ned's men. I'm not knocking them per se. I was refering to my comparison (which, perhaps, I didn't make on this site) between the first three books of Song and two of my favourite "duelling dynasty" novels, Dune and the Godfather.

All three feature societies dominated by Great Houses, or Families

All three feature weak rulers (Robert, Shaddam, no-one)

All three feature to houses in conflict (Stark / Lannister, Atreides / Harkonnen, Corleone / Tattaglia - Barzini)

In all three cases the head of the "good" house is assassinated or taken out of action (RIP Ned Stark, Leto in the Sardaukar ambush on Arrakis, Vito being shot outside the office (though not fatally).

In all three cases the son rises to the occasion, triumphs over his adversary and becomes greater than his father (well, not so much Robb (though he is King in the North for a while), Paul becomes the galactic Emperor and prophet, Michael becomes the pre-eminent Don in New York and Las Vegas).

For me one of the key causes that led to this divergence, whether conscious on Martin's part or not, was the absence of Characters in House Stark.

The Corleones had Luca Brazzi, Tessio, Clemenza, Lampone, Al Neri and Hagen.

The Atredies had Duncan Idaho, Guerney Halleck, and Thufir Hawat;

all of whom rise above their type and lend help to their lords in a manner above that of their rivals.

But in Song it's the Lannisters who have the Characters (Ilyn Payne, Sandor Clegane, Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, Vago Hoat, Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister,) we can all name their characteristics, pick them out from a crowd. What to we know about Jory or Ser Rodrick Cassel, about Fat Tom or, I dunno, anyone name any others? Even Maester Luwin seems to be an ordinary Maester, although at the end he may have demonstrated some arcane wisdom. Could anyone even draw a picture of Jory that other people would recognise as Jory without being told?

I don't want to go too far with this, but I do think a key part of the Stark defeat is their lack of distinctive characters, the fundamental ordinariness of their men.

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You're right, I am a bit harsh on Ned's men. I'm not knocking them per se. I was refering to my comparison (which, perhaps, I didn't make on this site) between the first three books of Song and two of my favourite "duelling dynasty" novels, Dune and the Godfather.

All three feature societies dominated by Great Houses, or Families

All three feature weak rulers (Robert, Shaddam, no-one)

All three feature to houses in conflict (Stark / Lannister, Atreides / Harkonnen, Corleone / Tattaglia - Barzini)

In all three cases the head of the "good" house is assassinated or taken out of action (RIP Ned Stark, Leto in the Sardaukar ambush on Arrakis, Vito being shot outside the office (though not fatally).

In all three cases the son rises to the occasion, triumphs over his adversary and becomes greater than his father (well, not so much Robb (though he is King in the North for a while), Paul becomes the galactic Emperor and prophet, Michael becomes the pre-eminent Don in New York and Las Vegas).

For me one of the key causes that led to this divergence, whether conscious on Martin's part or not, was the absence of Characters in House Stark.

The Corleones had Luca Brazzi, Tessio, Clemenza, Lampone, Al Neri and Hagen.

The Atredies had Duncan Idaho, Guerney Halleck, and Thufir Hawat;

all of whom rise above their type and lend help to their lords in a manner above that of their rivals.

But in Song it's the Lannisters who have the Characters (Ilyn Payne, Sandor Clegane, Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, Vago Hoat, Jaime Lannister, Tyrion Lannister,) we can all name their characteristics, pick them out from a crowd. What to we know about Jory or Ser Rodrick Cassel, about Fat Tom or, I dunno, anyone name any others? Even Maester Luwin seems to be an ordinary Maester, although at the end he may have demonstrated some arcane wisdom. Could anyone even draw a picture of Jory that other people would recognise as Jory without being told?

I don't want to go too far with this, but I do think a key part of the Stark defeat is their lack of distinctive characters, the fundamental ordinariness of their men.

I think I see what your saying, but I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate between the Stark and Lannister men you name. Jory Cassel and Fat Tom are ordinary household guardsmen, not bannermen like Gregor or Lorch. A better match for the Characters your looking for would be the Greatjon, Maege Mormont, Wyman Manderly, who are all fairly well described and possess certain defining characteristics.

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I think I see what your saying, but I'm not sure if the comparison is accurate between the Stark and Lannister men you name. Jory Cassel and Fat Tom are ordinary household guardsmen, not bannermen like Gregor or Lorch. A better match for the Characters your looking for would be the Greatjon, Maege Mormont, Wyman Manderly, who are all fairly well described and possess certain defining characteristics.

True, I suppose. Still, I can't shake the feeling that Tywin could give orders with much greater certainty of their being effectively carried out than Ned could.

On the other hand the Hound and Ser Ilyn serve directly under the Lannisters, and Gregor and Ser Amory and Vargo Hoat all seem to lead small irregular unit directly under Tywin, rather than whole armies of their own sworn Knights and conscripted peasants as the Umbers, Mormonts, etc. do. Whether it's that the Starks lack those characters, or the Stark characters are dispersed and have their own interests while the Lannister characters seem to exist only to serve Lord Tywin (or his delegates) there is a difference. Personally I would say that the comparator to Gregor, Amory, Vargo etc. would be the Blackfish.

Other things I've noticed on my re-read:

When Sansa is going to the Godswood in Clash she imagine seeing Ser Ilyn sitting beneath the heart tree, Ice in his hand. This eerily mirrors the pose in which Catelyn found Ned in her first chapter in Game - he, of course, was facing the tree.

When Tyrion visits the Pyromancers he comments to himself that they advised him to dress warmly and he took them at their word - possibly he learnt his lesson on the wall?

Meera is described as being a "Lady . of House Reed", whereas Jojen gets no title and is introduced as being "of Greywater Watch".

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True, I suppose. Still, I can't shake the feeling that Tywin could give orders with much greater certainty of their being effectively carried out than Ned could.

I think that the difference is that Tywin spent like 20 years in KL. His men knew the lay of the land so to speak. I think Neds men were more than competent in the North, but more than a little innept in KL. Everything in KL is different, and they have only been there for a couple of months, if that. The North as a whole is much less politically motivated than the Westerlands, the Reach and even the Riverlands, and much less politically motivated than KL. It is a completely different culture, summed up nicely by Ned himself when he thinks to himself something to the effect of: I am used to being the only Lord that matters in the room, essentially he has been the King of the North for the last 15+ years only lacking the title. Now he is in KL and is surrounded by his peers, not his underlings. He and his men are not acclimated to this situation.

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Meera is described as being a "Lady . of House Reed", whereas Jojen gets no title and is introduced as being "of Greywater Watch".

I never noticed this before. Does it infer that Jojen is a bastard? Possibly sired while Howland was on the Isle of Faces? I think the timeline fits.

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The thoughts about Stark men vs Lannister men are interesting. I think there is some true to it but I attribute it to a different factor. That is distance. The best and the worst elements of defending the north is the distances between places. At the rock, all the minor lords holdfasts and castles are within a days ride of each other. They would know each other well and regularly have millitary interactions. In the North it would be far less frequent that the various lords would get together. This would have major implications for the effectiveness of a combined military force and what the best ways to use it would be.

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This is the first I heard of Cersei being pregnant

Cersei is being threatened by a younger, prettier queen (Margaery on the surface, perhaps Dany). She is drinking all the time, gaining weight, losing her looks slightly, and most importantly getting older. The only exercise she gets is playing two dick stickem w/ any knight she could find. I think peeps might be reading too much in to it.

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Meera is described as being a "Lady . of House Reed", whereas Jojen gets no title and is introduced as being "of Greywater Watch".

IIRC, Meera is older that Jojen, and if the marshfolk follow the Dornish model of succession, Meera would be the heir of her father. Another possibility is that Jojen is disqualified (or voluntarily leaves) from the order of succession because of his greensight, somewhat like a Maester of those parts.

Most likely, we are reading too much into this, though. I think the introduction was just a way to show the readers who these characters were, and where they were from.

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Cersei must be drinking a hell of a lot of moon tea, the way she gets around. It would be horribly fitting if she were pregnant with say, one of the Kettleblacks bastards in her belly.

When she was sleeping with Lancel, she had him ejaculate on her belly. Presumably she has done this with everyone she sleeps with except Robert and Jaime. I think we are to take this to mean she can't be pregnant.

FYI, in the real world, this method (early withdrawal) is only 10% effective. I know 2 people who got pregnant this way. So don't try it at home.

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