Details, details, details part III

[Sarella]

When she was sleeping with Lancel, she had him ejaculate on her belly. Presumably she has done this with everyone she sleeps with except Robert and Jaime. I think we are to take this to mean she can't be pregnant.

Well if she didn't use this method with Jaime then she could be pregnant with Jaime's child, could she not?

[Raven Queen]

Are you referring to their encounter in the sept? It's possible that she conceived then, despite being on her period, but highly unlikely. Why would GRRM throw that detail in there, unless we were to take from it that no pregnancy was possible?

Another random detail, unrelated:

in ASOS, Meera comments that she both loves and hates the mountains of the north. Bran protests-- how can she both hate and love something?

"Why can't it be both?" Meera reached up to pinch his nose.

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like day and night, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in a solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate..."

So the teachings that Jojen believes (presumably from the COTF?), and which he is passing on to Bran, is that there are no absolutes, no extremes-- that opposites are the same. (Derivative of Eastern philosophies)

In the very next chapter, which is a Davos POV, Melisande visits Davos in his cell. She says:

"... The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pleaure and pain. Winter and summer. Evil and good. Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

Her beliefs are the complete reverse. Rather than opposites dwelling in unity, she sees opposites as constantly warring, and that one is better than the other. There is no balance; ideally, good would vanquish evil forever. The one does not need the other.

It's a nice contrast between the two people who may go on to represent the two major sources of supernatural power we've seen in the books. It's set up very deliberately and deftly. Possibly this even suggests a future reckoning between Melisandre and Bran; or at least, between R'hllor and Bran. The comparison is so clear that it feels signifcant.

[Maybe]

When she was sleeping with Lancel, she had him ejaculate on her belly. Presumably she has done this with everyone she sleeps with except Robert and Jaime. I think we are to take this to mean she can't be pregnant.

Or we are to take it to mean that Cersi is really that stupid and using a 10% effective method of birth control. Not like they have the pill though.

[Raven Queen]

Eh, a lot of people, in the real world, believe this is a fool-proof method. They are scarily wrong. Still, it's totally reasonable that Cersei, Lancel, Tryion (whom Lancel tells), etc would all believe this method works.

[Stubert]

Eh, a lot of people, in the real world, believe this is a fool-proof method. They are scarily wrong. Still, it's totally reasonable that Cersei, Lancel, Tryion (whom Lancel tells), etc would all believe this method works.

While the method, called coitus interruptus by the way, is not "fool-proof", the success rate is not only 10% as you have said in previous posts. Here, read this short answer and description.

It says there that the failure rate is around 19%, so the success rate is 81%.

[Artas]

While the method, called coitus interruptus by the way,

We call it "leaving the church before the singing".

[The Adequate Jon]

Another random detail, unrelated:

in ASOS, Meera comments that she both loves and hates the mountains of the north. Bran protests-- how can she both hate and love something?

So the teachings that Jojen believes (presumably from the COTF?), and which he is passing on to Bran, is that there are no absolutes, no extremes-- that opposites are the same. (Derivative of Eastern philosophies)

In the very next chapter, which is a Davos POV, Melisande visits Davos in his cell. She says:

Her beliefs are the complete reverse. Rather than opposites dwelling in unity, she sees opposites as constantly warring, and that one is better than the other. There is no balance; ideally, good would vanquish evil forever. The one does not need the other.

It's a nice contrast between the two people who may go on to represent the two major sources of supernatural power we've seen in the books. It's set up very deliberately and deftly. Possibly this even suggests a future reckoning between Melisandre and Bran; or at least, between R'hllor and Bran. The comparison is so clear that it feels signifcant.

Cool!

[the silent speaker]

In ASOS, Dany has a book of stories of Westeros.

Chldren's stories, if truth be told; too simple and fanciful to be true history. All the heroes were tall and handsome, and you could tell the traitors by their shifty eyes. Yet she loved them all the same. Last night she had been reading of the three princesses in the red tower, locked away by the king for the crime of being beautiful.

She's reading about Baelor the Blessed, and he's the bad guy.

[Barba]

Meera is described as being a "Lady . of House Reed", whereas Jojen gets no title and is introduced as being "of Greywater Watch".

IIRC, Meera is older that Jojen, and if the marshfolk follow the Dornish model of succession, Meera would be the heir of her father. Another possibility is that Jojen is disqualified (or voluntarily leaves) from the order of succession because of his greensight, somewhat like a Maester of those parts.

Most likely, we are reading too much into this, though. I think the introduction was just a way to show the readers who these characters were, and where they were from.

Well, There was a line in CoK (I think) where Jojen said: "Don't worry, sister. Today is not the day I die."

I think he knows when he will die. He must have seen it in his dreams, and he knows he will die before his father. So, Meera will inherit all the titles.

I just hope George has some cool death in mind for him

[Sarella]

Are you referring to their encounter in the sept? It's possible that she conceived then, despite being on her period, but highly unlikely. Why would GRRM throw that detail in there, unless we were to take from it that no pregnancy was possible?

True, but perhaps to raise some doubt in the reader's mind, GRRM put another detail in there. Jaime and Cersei had sex on the alter of The Mother, no less. What better place to conceive?!

And the alter of The Mother is mentioned twice in that scene.

Anyway, I'm not hell-bent on it being Jaime's, and it being Jaime's child isn't essential for the Cersei is pregnant theory to work (although it is essential if GRRM's plan is for this stillbirth to prove that Tommen and Mycella are the products of treason and incest).

What is essential to the theory is that Cersei found a dead chick in her breakfast egg. I don't think GRRM could write a clearer foreshadowing for a still birth than that.

[Jaime Martell]

What is essential to the theory is that Cersei found a dead chick in her breakfast egg. I don't think GRRM could write a clearer foreshadowing for a still birth than that.

nice catch, I never thought of that before. I have to bank on one of the Kettleblacks for being the baby-daddy, but I doubt it'll matter.

[Potboy]

I can not imagine the Kettleblacks being willing to interupt anything. It does not seem their nature.

By the way do you think that the name comes from "Pot calling the Kettle black"? If so who is the pot? Is is Varys to LFs kettle?

[The Little Crannogman]

It's a nice contrast between the two people who may go on to represent the two major sources of supernatural power we've seen in the books. It's set up very deliberately and deftly. Possibly this even suggests a future reckoning between Melisandre and Bran; or at least, between R'hllor and Bran. The comparison is so clear that it feels signifcant.

Nice catch!

[Joy]

SPOILER: ADWD

In Daenerys 3, Hizdahr requests Dany to open the fighting pits, and links asking for a 7th time to her 7 gods. Cersei in AFFC also had the Iron Bank requesting money for the 7th time, and Cersei made some quip about a 7th request. The interesting thing was that Dany capitulated, whereas Cersei essentially committed political suicide by banker.

I love this thread! There are a lot of parallels in seemingly inconsequential details, aren't there?

[Raven Queen]

"Pulling out" may be more effective when done correctly-- ie, well before ejaculation. But the reality is that most people don't, so it ISN'T effective. So don't try it at home, kids.

Teenagers in particular usually the lack necessary muscle control. So Lancel would be unlikely to manage the technique properly.

That said; I don't think Cersei is pregnant anyway, and the dead chick is a foreshadowing of DEATH rather than pregnancy and stillbirth.

[aeu]

Something that's probably obvious to many who pay attention to family trees, yet it still made me happy when I noticed it in the reread:

Just before Sam reaches Oldtown, a war galley stops them for inspection. While talking about Lord Hightower's preperations, her captain says:

Baelor's building galleys, Gunthor has charge of the harbor, Garth is training new recruits, and Humfrey's gone to Lys to hire sellsails. If he can winkle a proper fleet out of his whore of a sister, we can start paying back ironmen with some of their own coin.

The sister in question is Lynesse, second wife of Ser Jorah Mormont. I loved how GRRM casualy makes use of a very minor character in passing, as well as the fact that the mighty Hightowers are reduced to begging to their blacksheep daughter.

[Piper]

In ACoK, at the three way Stark-Renly-Stannis parlay:

Sighing, Renly half turned in the saddle. "What am I to do with this brother of mine, Brienne? He refuses my peach, he refuses my castle, he even shunned my wedding . . ."

"We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores."

"A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter? The boar got Robert and I got Margaery. You'll be pleased to know she came to me a maid."

"In your bed she's like to die that way."

"Oh, I expect I'll get a son on her within the year. Pray, how many sons do you have, Stannis? Oh, yes-none." Renly smiled innocently. "As to your daughter, I understand. If my wife looked like yours, Id send my fool to service her as well."

"Enough!" Stannis roared. "I will not be mocked to my face, do you hear me? I will not!" He yanked his longsword from its scabbard. The steel gleamed strangely bright in the wan sunlight, now red, now yellow, now blazing white. The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat.

Catelyn's horse whinnied and backed away a step, but Brienne moved between the brothers, her own blade in hand. "Put up your steel!" she shouted at Stannis.

Cersei Lannister is laughing herself breathless, Catelyn thought wearily.

And, of course, she did just that:

Tyrion smiled. "Lord Stannis has sailed from Dragonstone."

Cersei bolted to her feet. "And yet you sit there grinning like a harvest-day pumpkin? Has Bywater called out the City Watch? We must send a bird to Harrenhal at once." He was laughing by then. She seized him by the shoulders and shook him. "Stop it. Are you mad, or drunk? Stop it!"

It was all he could do to get out the words. "I can't," he gasped. "It's too . . . gods, too funny . . . Stannis. . ."

"What?"

"He hasn't sailed against us," Tyrion managed. "He's laid siege to Storm's End. Renly is riding to meet him."

His sister's nails dug painfully into his arms. For a moment she stared incredulous, as if he had begun to gibber in an unknown tongue. "Stannis and Renly are fighting each other?" When he nodded, Cersei began to chuckle. "Gods be good," she gasped, "I'm starting to believe that Robert was the clever one."

Tyrion threw back his head and roared. They laughed together. Cersei pulled him off the bed and whirled him around and even hugged him, for a moment as giddy as a girl. By the time she let go of him, Tyrion was breathless and dizzy. He staggered to her sideboard and put out a hand to steady himself.

[The Adequate Jon]

"Oh, I expect I'll get a son on her within the year. Pray, how many sons do you have, Stannis? Oh, yes-none." Renly smiled innocently. "As to your daughter, I understand. If my wife looked like yours, I'd send my fool to service her as well."

I never noticed this before. Early in ACOK, LF suggested that they start a rumor about Shireen being a bastard of Patchface and Selyse to counter Stannis' charge about the twincest. It seems the rumors have reached Renly at this point.

[the silent speaker]

That quote is also evidence that Maid Margaery isn't. If the marriage had really been unconsummated, Renly would likely not have made a confident prediction of children.

[Joey Geko]

Since this is the thread for tiny details, here's one I found on my most recent pass through AGOT:

As Catelyn Stark approaches the Bloody Gate of the Arryns we have this bit o' narrative to ponder:

Sometimes she felt as though her heart had turned to stone; six brave men had died bringing...

Which, as we would later learn, became the name she is now known as.

Useless minutia for us ASOIAF obsessives to talk about.