Stuff i mised...

[Actaeus86]

Hi all,

i have been reading through the forums here for a little while, and i have seen a few topics about characters that i thought were dead, what did i miss?

Sandor=i keep seeing posts about him being a convert and changing his evil ways, maybe being the faith's champion. where in the books does he live and make this great change? i thought he died when arya left him

Gregor=as far as i knew qyburn (sp) took him to the black cells and he screamed, died and his head is going to dorne, but ive seen several post about him being alive lol

Brienne= again i thought she was hung, did i miss her comeback?

there were a couple of more, but they escape me now

thanks in advance for clearing this up for me

[Gerold Hightower]

Sandor is the gravedigger on the quiet isle.

Qyborn seems to bee carrying out some "experiment" in the black cells. Most people believe (from the hints in AFFC) that he is building a monster out of Gregor's body (and those of the the people Cersei has given him to experiment with.

We haven't seen Brienne's comeback but GRRM gave her a lot of chapters in AFFC. That doesen't preclude her death but GRRM left her hanging, not dead. Many people believe that she won't die.

[Ser Warpechowski]

Most has been answered already. But most of what has been said are just theories.

Sandor COULD be the big guy digging graves on the monastery.

Gregor COULD be the next generation Frankenstein 2000.

Brienne´s death was left as a wall hanger, in her case, a rope hanger.

So, most could be wishfull thinking or the subtle way Martin tells us these things could be happening.

[Turinqui-Calima]

Isn't that supposed to be cliff hanger?

[Benjen]

Sandor - The Elder Brother's tale to Brienne about Sandor's death, along with the presence of the gravedigger (and his limp), and Stranger in the stables of the Quiet Isle, sort of makes me think Sandor is indeed alive. The setting where the Elder Brother found Sandor fits with what we saw in Arya's chapters. The Elder brothers knowledge of Sandor's hate for Gregor could mean the Hound made a confession of sorts. And the Quiet Isle is known for it's healers...

Gregor - Qyburn took him down to the Black cells to experiment, and took several others given to him by Cersei to "use" in his experiments. Later he and Cersei ordered a massive, seemingly unwearable, suit of armor. Qyburn also told Cersei of a champion that he was preparing for her who would not be chivalrous but rather invincible and uttlerly devoted. Undead anyone? Qyburn studied with Marwyn, and so did Mirri Maz Duur, so blood magic is not out of the question.

Brienne - She was given the choice between the sword and the noose. She refused to make a choice. Once faced with bening hung and watching Pod Payne hang, she yelled out her choice, which I think was "Sword!". So yeah, she may yet live as well.

[Heal]

2 of those are just theories (Sandor and Brienne) and Gregor becoming UnGregor becomes kind of common sense to how many times they mention a ultimate champion adn Qyburn asking for people.

[Actaeus86]

wow, thanks for all the insight. i need to re-read the books again lol. i missed all those subtle hints, but thanks again for all the answers now i know what to look for.

the one about sandor was really driving me crazy. the ungregor super champion...kinda crazy, but yall know way more than i do. and brienne, hers was the only one i could see having a miraculous (sp) comeback since martin seems to like her or at least have some future role for her.

thanks again

[IceWolf]

I missed the part in AFFC about Ser Davos being captured and killed/mutilated the first time through. I wonder if that's a red herring though since it would be a big spoiler to give away.

[the silent speaker]

Since the Hound is unequivocally dead (and his helm taken up by Rorge and then Lemoncloak) I don't particularly see the point in having Sandor still be alive. But that's me.

If Brienne's one word weren't going to matter, Martin would have shown it to us, I assume. Therefore it matters, and therefore she still needs to be alive for it to matter. My current guess is it's "Bolton," since the info that 'Arya' headed north isn't the real deal is the only thing I can think of that Brienne knows, but Stoneheart doesn't and would care about.

[Faceless Dude]

I missed the part in AFFC about Ser Davos being captured and killed/mutilated the first time through. I wonder if that's a red herring though since it would be a big spoiler to give away.

My personal beleif is that this did not really happen. All the reports of this were gotten to Cersei through other people. People who are now in charge (Pyrcelle) now that Cersei is "indesposed". Either that or Lord Manderly put someone else's head and (shortened) hand on display to fool the Lannisters into releasing his son.

[Rhaegon Targaryen]

Just on Sandor. There is no doubt about the gravedigger being Sandor. Reread the chapter on the Quiet Isle in the Brienne POV. His build, his limp, the fact the Elder Brother says the Hound is dead not Sandor Clegane, the mirroring of the Elder Brother's own violent past and rebirth as a monk to Sandor, Stranger is there and finally Dog's reaction to the Gravedigger (by which I mean GRRM using Dog to show the Hound). Of all theories this one is closest to fact i.e. 99.99%.

[Sarella]

I completely agree, Rhaegon. It couldn't be more obvious if there were a neon sign flashing "Sandor is the Gravedigger!". In fact, I've heard the description in that scene (particularly dog showing affection to Sandor) referred to as a literary neon sign, by someone on this board.

As for Gregor, don't forget Bran's vision:

There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Giant - Gregor Clegane is the biggest man in Westeros

Armour of stone - We know that Qyburn/Cersei have commissioned a blacksmith to make armor that no man could carry

Nothing in inside the helm - Gregor's head was sent to Dorne

Also, when Cersei is imprisoned by the faith, Qyburn tells Cersei that he has a champion that no man could stand against.

I believe Brienne screamed "sword". UnCat wanted her to kill Jaime to prove her loyalty. She refused. As Benjen said, she was given the choice between the sword or the noose. Between killing Jaime or hanging. We all know that Brienne would rather hang than kill Jaime, but would she be willing to let Pod hang as well?

[Michael Jon Snow]

Sarella,

When you add to your info about Greggor the fact that Qyburn said that the poison caused Greggor's blood to turn thick and black, I think that there is little doubt that Bran was forseeing a confrontation between Greggor and Sandor&Jamie.

[Lord O' Bones]

Nothing in inside the helm - Gregor's head was sent to Dorne

Actually no. When asked about it, Qyburn says that it took a long time to find one so large to send to Dorne. Obviously, Gregor's head was nearby (and likely on his shoulders,) therefore the head that was sent must have been a replacement.

[Sarella]

Lord O' Bones, I've heard this said before, but never been able to find it in the text. Do you have the quote and page number?

I've read all of Cersei's chapters specifically looking for where Qyburn says that.

He definitely says it took a long time to clean a skull that big...

[Lord O' Bones]

I've heard this said before, but never been able to find it in the text. Do you have the quote and page number?

Not with me no. I should though, as often as it comes up. IIRC it was an almost off-handed comment by Qyburn in one of the Cersei chapters from AFFC.

Edit: The Tower of the Hand seems to agree with me (footnote 2) and possibly gives the chapter, but again, no page number. Sorry.

[Sarella]

Not with me no. I should though, as often as it comes up.

Heheh, I know what it's like. After sifting through So Spake Martin several times to prove GRRM said AA=PWWP, I have now finally added the page to my favourites for the next time someone asks .

Edit: The Tower of the Hand seems to agree with me (footnote 2) and possibly gives the chapter, but again, no page number. Sorry.

The TOTH does seem to agree with you. I too would like to think it was a fake head sent to Dorne. But it is pure speculation. Qyburn never says that in the text, I swear! I have looked! But it was a while ago, and I will look again when I get home tonight.

[the silent speaker]

the fact the Elder Brother says, "The Hound is dead," not "Sandor Clegane [is dead],"

(I added the quotation marks and the brackets for better clarity, since the Elder Brother never expressly disclaimed Sandor.)

Sandor Clegane is the Hound. That's all he is. Take the Hound away and there's nothing left of Sandor. The two comments are completely equivalent unless you start from the premise that he had a major humongous change completely offscreen. And Elder Brother adds "I buried him myself" so unless that was a lie, Sandor is actually deader than the Hound is.

[Lord O' Bones]

(I added the quotation marks and the brackets for better clarity, since the Elder Brother never expressly disclaimed Sandor.)

Sandor Clegane is the Hound. That's all he is. Take the Hound away and there's nothing left of Sandor. The two comments are completely equivalent unless you start from the premise that he had a major humongous change completely offscreen. And Elder Brother adds "I buried him myself" so unless that was a lie, Sandor is actually deader than the Hound is.

Everyone's opinion is important of course.

Still, you may want to purchase some "Feeling stupid after the fact" insurance.

[Sarella]

Sandor Clegane is the Hound. That's all he is. Take the Hound away and there's nothing left of Sandor. The two comments are completely equivalent unless you start from the premise that he had a major humongous change completely offscreen. And Elder Brother adds "I buried him myself" so unless that was a lie, Sandor is actually deader than the Hound is.

The Elder Brother told Brienne the story of how he was a knight and died on The Trident. But wait, if he died on The Trident, how is he alive and talking to Brienne?!

Read between the lines. The Hound is the bad part of Sandor Clegane. The part driven only by the desire to kill Gregor. Sandor is the remaining part of Sandor Clegane. When told Gregor was dead, the bad part of him (The Hound) died. What is left is the good part - Sandor.

Yes, he has had a change off-screen. He isn't a POV character, so is that so strange? Although I don't think the change is all that big. He threw dirt at Brienne and company when they walked past him. Sounds like there is still has a bit of his old self there .