Stuff i mised...

[Ser Romin]

I readily admit that my memory may be skewed on this subject. After multiple resurrections and goddamned murderous shadow babies, a f**king headless Frankenstein's monster warrior of ass-kick-a-tude would pretty much kill my interest in this story.

I know, the thought of Ser Gregor coming back to life as Gregorstein leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like really, what purpose can he serve other than to defend Tommen should King's Landing be breached. No one will tolerate a man who they believed was dead suddenly coming back as an indestrutible monsters.

[Sarella]

The quote is:

" 'Have you attended to the little task I set you?'

'I have, Your Grace. I am sorry it took so long. Such a large head. It took the beetles many hours to clean the flesh. By way of pardon, I have a lined a box of ebony and silver with felt, to make a fitting presentation for the skull.' "

Thanks Korax!

What Cersei says sounds a bit dodgy to me, I must admit. We don't know exactly what little task she set Qyburn.

It could have been "Remove Gregor's head and clean the flesh off it. I mean to send it to Doran and I don't want it to be a stinking, rotten mess."

Or it could have been "If you want to keep experimenting on Gregor, find me a head his size and clean the flesh off it so nobody will know it isn't Gregor's. I mean to send it to Doran."

I am leaning towards the latter, because a dwarf head would likely be as large as Gregor's, and we know that Cersei is in posession of several dwarves' heads. In fact, doesn't she ask Meryn Trant to take one of the heads to Qyburn after meeting with some would be bounty hunters?

Bran's vision could mean that The Qyborg has no head. But it could also mean that the man inside the armour is dead.

[Lord O' Bones]

Or it could have been "If you want to keep experimenting on Gregor, find me a head his size and clean the flesh off it so nobody will know it isn't Gregor's. I mean to send it to Doran."

This is exactly how I read it, though the evidence is far less firm than I had thought. But why even refer to it as "a little task?" That's exactly how I would talk about something I knew I didn't want anyone else to know about. You can almost see her looking around the room out of the corner of her eye as she says it.

[BerryHarryBear]

My bet is on Sandor being the gravedigger and not being as subdued as the Elder Brother seems to think. The Elder Brother was definitely crossing the border several times on his evasions (Read -outright lies here) but he did let Bernie know that in some ways he was speaking metaphorically when he delibrately talked of his own death on the Trident.

I also bet that Gregor still has his own head. I really can not see Martin doing the headless monster thing. I do think that Brans vision still has to come to be but the "nothing inside but thick black blood" does not mean Gregor will be headless. More likely it is a reference to there is not much of a mind left behind after the pioson and Qyburns magic. Gregor never was all that much of a thinker, now he will be even more of a mindless killing machine.

Bernie is alive but I'm not sure what she said. "Sword" seems the most likely, but with Martin that is far from a certianty.

[Sarella]

Who owuld take over house Clegane if they both died anyone know?

We don't have enough info on the Cleganes. Mum or dad Clegane may still be alive, or perhaps an uncle. Considering that neither Gregor nor Sandor seem to be needed at the Clegane household, there is probably someone else in charge.

I didn't even realise Sandor and Gregor had a sister until someone here mentioned that she died.

[Lord O' Bones]

We don't have enough info on the Cleganes. Mum or dad Clegane may still be alive, or perhaps an uncle. Considering that neither Gregor nor Sandor seem to be needed at the Clegane household, there is probably someone else in charge.

I didn't even realise Sandor and Gregor had a sister until someone here mentioned that she died.

Daddy's dead, pretty sure mum is too. Gregor was the head of the house, but I'm sure some steward is "in charge" while the Dog's are out.

[the silent speaker]

Im not sure how your question applies to my statement. Pod and MF were named characters. Whether they have overall importance or impact, which is what I think you are asking, is not my point.

My point was that a minor character can be dwelt on without necessarily acquiring a Top Secret Super Special Death-Defying Destiny. I take your point about the difference between a minor named character and an ostensible background one, but how about Davos Seaworth's jailers? They didn't get named (unless you think "Porridge and Lamprey" counts) but their cameos never amounted to any significant insights. Some people are just background. I think the gravedigger is one such.

[Houndelicious]

My point was that a minor character can be dwelt on without necessarily acquiring a Top Secret Super Special Death-Defying Destiny. I take your point about the difference between a minor named character and an ostensible background one, but how about Davos Seaworth's jailers? They didn't get named (unless you think "Porridge and Lamprey" counts) but their cameos never amounted to any significant insights. Some people are just background. I think the gravedigger is one such.

And you may be right. However, I dare say that Davos' jailers did not have quite the role to play in the story that Sandor did, did not have an ambiguous final scene prior to that, and did not figure prominently in a conversation in which he was the main topic, both straightforward and innuendo-laden.

I guess my point is this: Why would GRRM throw so much attention Gravedigger's way if he was just part of the scenery. If it was one of Davos' jailers (or a similar unimportant character), it simply wouldnt matter, and no one would care. However, if it is Sandor, then thats huge, and I personally think there would never have been so much attnetion shown (similar wound, his horse, his size) to a part of the scenery taht wasnt worthy of even a name.

[Arwen]

Still, you may want to purchase some "Feeling stupid after the fact" insurance.

where would one get that? I could use some.

[Prince of the North]

Nothing to apologise for, interesting post. Although I don't see the hound that positive.

Regarding 2) If he loves Sansa? I dunno. She imagines the kiss in her romantic, sometimes emptyheaded ways - Sandor may register that she's pretty, but if there is more... - I doubt it.

Wrt 3) A true knight? Protect the weak, fight for justice? IMO the hound (until now, he may change while being with the faith) fought always for himself. "Making do as best as he could" included riding down Mycah and lauging about it - not knightly at all. He's just a battle-hardened cynic and open about being a cynic - but that does not make him good or knightly, just an honest cynic. His honesty makes him a bit more likeable, but not by far a good or knightly man.

I see what you're saying but I think of Sandor as a realist. After all, a cynic in a cynical world is but a realist, right? That Sandor killed Micah was horrible. But he could try to use the "Nuremburg Defense" and say he was just following orders but I don't think he does. I think I remember him actually expressing some remorse about it. Now, being remorseful about it doesn't excuse it in any way but there it is.

Sandor is an interesting, flawed character - he's done bad things and he's done good things. The refreshing thing to me about Sandor is that he's quite a bit less hypocritical than many so-called "True Knights". He calls it like it is. I love the fact that he basically refuses to take a Knight's vows because of all the hypocrisy he sees with knighthood, etc. He learned this lesson well when Gregor burned him and was then sworn into knighthood (by none other than Rhaegar, ironically).

I think Sandor, proud to not be called a knight, sees through all the guys masquerading as "True Knights" but who don't behave accordingly and, in the end, will show everyone something of what a true knight should be.

[IceWolf]

I was doubtful of the Hound=Gravedigger til I did a re-read. When Brienne and company are supping at the saltpans, the septon won't say that Sandor's dead, he hesitates then says he's "at peace", plus they're keeping his violent steed alive. The final thing was that when a dog ran to the gravedigger, he reached down and petted him. Dogs don't care if 1/2 your face is a burnscar and it seems like Sandor was pre-disposed towards dogs from the earlier readings, i just can't think specifically where.

[Lord O' Bones]

where would one get that? I could use some.

I don't remember actually. I've gotten so used to "feeling stupid after the fact" myself, that I don't really need it anymore.

[the silent speaker]

However, I dare say that Davos' jailers did not have quite the role to play in the story that Sandor did

That's just it, though. I'm not comparing them to Sandor. I'm comparing them to the gravedigger, who also had none of these things unless the Gravedogger theory is assumed.

[Sarella]

It is a good point you make, Silent Speaker.

Yet it is 1 good point versus 10 opposing (and equally good) points!

[Gerold Hightower]

After multiple resurrections and goddamned murderous shadow babies, a f**king headless Frankenstein's monster warrior of ass-kick-a-tude would pretty much kill my interest in this story.

Sorry to have to break the news to you, but GRRM writes Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror. Not Historical Fiction.

[Houndelicious]

That's just it, though. I'm not comparing them to Sandor. I'm comparing them to the gravedigger, who also had none of these things unless the Gravedogger theory is assumed.

That is a pretty good point, but I would reply that, if I remember correctly, there wasnt anything mysterious about them, they were just plain old minor characters who happened to be there. They served a purpose as Davos' jailers. Gravedigger serves absolutely no purpose yet is specifically noticed on more than one occasion to go along with his physical description, Stranger, etc. Hell, maybe Im reading too much into it, but to me there was just a big neon sign above him saying, "Make sure you pay attention to this part!"

[Lord O' Bones]

Sorry to have to break the news to you, but GRRM writes Science Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror. Not Historical Fiction.

Huh. I guess it wouldn't kill my interest in the story then. Who knew?

[Nuri Snow]

I see what you're saying but I think of Sandor as a realist. After all, a cynic in a cynical world is but a realist, right? That Sandor killed Micah was horrible. But he could try to use the "Nuremburg Defense" and say he was just following orders but I don't think he does. I think I remember him actually expressing some remorse about it. Now, being remorseful about it doesn't excuse it in any way but there it is.

Sandor is an interesting, flawed character - he's done bad things and he's done good things. The refreshing thing to me about Sandor is that he's quite a bit less hypocritical than many so-called "True Knights". He calls it like it is. I love the fact that he basically refuses to take a Knight's vows because of all the hypocrisy he sees with knighthood, etc. He learned this lesson well when Gregor burned him and was then sworn into knighthood (by none other than Rhaegar, ironically).

I think Sandor, proud to not be called a knight, sees through all the guys masquerading as "True Knights" but who don't behave accordingly and, in the end, will show everyone something of what a true knight should be.

Sandor chose which family to serve - he even serves Joffrey (although he does not beat Sansa).

So "Nuremberg defense" would not work, IMO. He only ends the service when commanded to come in contact with fire.

With remorse, I dunno - I doimly remember something from he book ("half choked/half laughed and said I cut him down) - but this is with Arya - when he meets Ned after he cut down Mycah, he expresses no regret whatsoever.

Sandor does not act like a true knight too - he only is open about the bad things he does. I'm not sure, which one is a better man: The one who lies to himself about knighthood, because he would not be able to do the things he does otherwise - or the one who doesn't and is capable of doing them nonetheless.

Besides, I think he is a cynic - the way he talks about knights ("swords with ribbons") - Selmy may be a knight too, and he tries to live honourably. You can be a knight as honourable as possible - or you can be a cynic and not care from the beginning.

Maybe Sandor will change while being with the faith - but until now, I would call him a cool, badass character - not a true knight.

And out of interest (I haven't got the books here to check.) What good things has Sandor done?

[A wilding]

Sandor chose which family to serve - he even serves Joffrey (although he does not beat Sansa).

So "Nuremberg defense" would not work, IMO. He only ends the service when commanded to come in contact with fire.

To need the Nuremburg defence in the first place though, you have to have obeyed an order that was clearly wrong.

It is not clear exactly what order Sandor was given, but most likely it was one from his Lannister masters to hunt down and kill the commoner who had attacked the Crown Prince and then fled. I doubt very much that you would find a consensus in Westeros that this order was clearly wrong.

[Nuri Snow]

To need the Nuremburg defence in the first place though, you have to have obeyed an order that was clearly wrong.

It is not clear exactly what order Sandor was given, but most likely it was one from his Lannister masters to hunt down and kill the commoner who had attacked the Crown Prince and then fled. I doubt very much that you would find a consensus in Westeros that this order was clearly wrong.

Well, the debate was about if the hound acts like a true knight - I don't have the books here - but if you look into AGOT, neither the action nor the description by the hound sound very knightly.

And this may be a case of "might makes right" - but shouldn't Mycah have had - legally - some sort of trial? It wasn't a command from the king to kill Mycah... - not knightly to just kill him... not for someone who is claimed to be a truer knight than others who claim to adhere to knightly ideals - he's at least just as bad as the others.

Would Selmy just have ridden down Mycah? Somehow I suspect that he wouldn't have.