A Dance with Dragons Release Discussion, Part II

[Werthead]

Okay, our first thread hit the 20-page limit. Discussion of ADWD's possible/potential release schedule and George's updates can now be done here.

[Peter's Littlefinger]

George can't possibly finish the book soon enough, I am foaming at the mouth, I need more. Anyone have a suggestion as to what I should read next? I really enjoyed Myrren's Gift by Fiona McIntosh as well. . . . It has been suggested to me to read a series called "A Tale of the New Sun." Let me know, thanks!

[Heal]

Legend I heard was a pretty good book I was planning on getting it myself. Also The Prince of Nothing Series and The Dark is Rising series.

[Lyanna Stark-Targaryen]

I feel like it HAS to be finished by this year. Next year seems unfathomable. Actually, I think that if Spore (the game that is continually being pushed back, but looks absolutely AMAZING) comes out before Dance I'll cry.

[Padraig]

To assume that this means that at the end of ASOS we're one-third through the series would be extraordinarily simplistic.

Actually, good point. That reminds me that GRRM did say that the Dany arc in aGoT was what was originally envisioned for her.

[Innominandum]

To assume that this means that at the end of ASOS we're one-third through the series would be extraordinarily simplistic.

I don't know where you read that in my post. Of course the RW being at the end of the planned AGOT doesn't mean that, I think it's obvious. It's understandable that the setup can grow far more than the resolution.

[mormont]

I don't know where you read that in my post. Of course the RW being at the end of the planned AGOT doesn't mean that, I think it's obvious. It's understandable that the setup can grow far more than the resolution.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you really thought that, though I misread your response as tending in that direction.

I was more trying to point out that the whole thing is more complicated than people allow. Personally, I can't see the remainder of the story taking more than three books including ADWD: although the Dany, Bran and Jon arcs may seem not to have progressed far enough, I really can't see how the plot in the War of the Five Kings could be extended long enough while these go on.

So I'm expecting significant developments in these plots in book 5, followed by a swift coming-together of the arcs in book 6 and a resolution and aftermath in book 7.

[Heal]

I'm expecting the series to be done by 2015 or 2016 at least hoping. It may be 2017. GRRM pop these books out like J.K. Rowling did she had a new Harry Potter out almost every year.

[Sword of the Morning]

Well, like with all things we'll see.

Both on when Dance will be ultimately released and the content itself as well.

All I know is that after reading Dance with Dragons, I will be quite confident in knowing whether the series will be finishable in two more books.

George Martin should be close to ONE HUNDRED PERCENT sure whether he can do it in two more.

The closer you get to the ending, obviously the more sure you should be how long it'll take to get there.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Until then, everything is speculation.

I HOPE that what Padraig, Werthead, and Mormont envisions for Dance actually happens. That would result in a TERRIFIC book and really do a great deal to put this series back on track for me personally. It would also retroactively prove to me at least that splitting Feast was a big mistake and that the long years of delay were worth it.

My great FEAR is that Dance will turn into a plodding "travelogue" ending with Tyrion and Quentyn and the rest just meeting up with Dany by the end as well as long drawn out chapters of Dany learning the political ins and outs of ruling while dealing with out of control man-eating dragons. As dreaded is the direction that Jon's story will take. Stannis is there, has his demands, ok . . . now what? For God's sake, let's hope we get a little more plot movement from the Others' and some Bran insights before finishing up.

I want Dance to be as good as anyone else, I LONG for this series to finish in 7 books which frankly will take a masterpiece of plotting and writing at this stage.

I DO believe Martin is fully capable of pulling that off. The question is WILL he?

Will he give us the Return of the King or the Matrix Revolutions? Only time will tell.

It's an exciting time as long, popular series with worldwide followings are slowly approaching extremely anticipated endings. The first to the finish line will be Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows. Then, God willing if Jordan stays alive, Memory of Light ending one of the longest and most polarizing epic fantasies in recent times. Finally, once again if the fates allow, George comes in with what I feel is the greatest anticipation, the greatest responsibility, the greatest potential. Song of Ice and Fire has a legimitate shot to be one of the truly great epic fantasies EVER. Not just great fantasy but truly great literature. I really, really hope he doesn't blow it.

Here to reading Dance in early 2008.

Dennis

[Ender]

I have my doubts as to whether the series can be completed in seven books, though I'd like it to be, and not because I want the series to be over with but because it has a synergy with Martin's focus on the number in the series. Eight feels more realistic to me though. There are a lot of PoV's left, and each needs a concluding chapter, which amounts to a third of a book or so just finishing everybody's storylines.

Anyway, Martin still holds the trump card for his story...the invasion of the Others, when it occurs, will throw a wrench into a lot of the 'Game of Thrones'-type maneuvering that has consumed much of the first four books (the game certainly won't stop completely though just because of the Others IMO). The Seven Kingdoms are so ill-prepared for it that barring miracles, legendary feats of valor, AA-reborn, etc. etc., the entire land could be plunged into Forever Winter in a rather short amount of time (depending on the Others' strength). Furthermore, the invasion will force the path of the storylines when it occurs, rather than them seemingly drifting in the ether of 'The Game'. In another thread I compared the storyline to a whirlpool, where events have been circling relatively slowly, perhaps even seeming a bit meandering to this point, but as the invasion occurs, all of the storylines will move faster and be increasingly pulled to the climax of the story of which they all are part.

Not to mention that a sudden upheavel in a story that may give the impression to some readers of moving at a glacial pace will make one of Martin's major themes even more poignant: the harm a nation's 'political' leadership causes to that nation and it's People when their cares are for their own power and social standing rather than the well-being and safety of the people they are supposed to be leading, especially so in the face of a significant, imminent threat.

---

It must be difficult for the author of an epic fantasy series not to fall in love with some, or even all of his/her characters, to the point that their entire lives run through his/her mind and through his/her fingers on the keyboard into the story. As such, the story winds up with a lot of material the reader finds pointless, even irritating, unless he or she shares the author's love for the character(s). It can be avoided. Tolkien managed it decently with some exception, but then saga of Middle Earth, despite its tremendous depth, is not so finely-detailed, and thus not so absolutely 'large', as Martin's world. Taken to an extreme, you get something like Wheel of Time, though I do not think Martin is at that point yet (at least I hope not). I am still confident Martin will pull it off, though as time goes on one has to fear the ticking of the clock more and more...Martin may be in good health and good spirits, but as people age (and even moreso for men), random pitfalls, particularly regarding health, become increasingly likely. And that goes for things as innocuous as walking down stairs, driving a car, etc. Gods bless the man and keep him safe and healthy.

Oh. And for being one that is skeptical of Martin's progress and his devotion to the process of writing his story (though I won't doubt his devotion to the story itself), I am confident ADwD will be released before the end of the year, whatever anybody says, except for perhaps the man himself.

EDIT: mis-'quoted' Wert's sticky

[Piper]

There are a lot of PoV's left, and each needs a concluding chapter, which amounts to a third of a book or so just finishing everybody's storylines.

Which is why I pray for a bloodbath in the coming books. Kill off half to two thirds of those characters in book 6/7, no need for a concluding chapter for each POV.

[Actaeus86]

well i think it will be 7 books, just because 7 is everywhere else in the series (kingdoms, faith...other examples that i cant think of) so why not end on book 7?

[IceWolf]

Another of my favorite writers, EE Knight (the Vampire Earth series, check it out) just posted at his site that he sent his manuscript to his piblisher, and the book is slated to be out in July, so perhaps we should anticipate a 4 month turnaroundtime from when GRRM finishes ADWD til it's actual publication.

[Ser Romin]

I personally am skeptical of this series concluding in 7 books. It seems that Martin, especially in book 4, thought it would be interesting to add new POV's simply because they would be interesting to the reader. However, he sacrificed the development of the story for this and thus we were left with the tremendously boring Iron Islands chapters. Also, I think that the story needs to be extended to atleast 8 books simply because the 5 year gap would be a HUGE blessing for this series. Wrap up the majority of the War of the Five Kings plot in either ADWD or the next book and blamo 5 year gap. The key characters, Jon, Dany, Bran, really need to age more and come into their own in order for their characters to be believable.

I'd much rather an author take his time and tell the story in as many books as possible, rather than force the story in a pre-determined number of novels. Make it 8, 9, 10, so long as it does not seem like the last few novels have gone to hyperspeed just to finish the story-arc.

[Ran]

GRRM has said that he added those POVs because he felt it was important to show what was happening in the areas where those characters were present, not because he thought "Hey, readers would like this."

And he's maintained that he thinks he could do it in seven ever after the publication of AFfC, and even well into writing ADwD. He could indeed be wrong, but who knows.

Oh, and he's pretty much said the "5 year gap" is scrapped. He said he'll just have to live with the kids being whatever age they are when the series is done. It is possible that a smaller jump forward is planned, but I don't think one moving ahead five years is in the works.

[Joanna vander Poele]

I personally am skeptical of this series concluding in 7 books. It seems that Martin, especially in book 4, thought it would be interesting to add new POV's simply because they would be interesting to the reader. However, he sacrificed the development of the story for this and thus we were left with the tremendously boring Iron Islands chapters. Also, I think that the story needs to be extended to atleast 8 books simply because the 5 year gap would be a HUGE blessing for this series. Wrap up the majority of the War of the Five Kings plot in either ADWD or the next book and blamo 5 year gap. The key characters, Jon, Dany, Bran, really need to age more and come into their own in order for their characters to be believable.

Agree about the POVS - all of the Iron Islands & Dorne POVs could have been cut to one person each instead of three kabillion people - either Asha or Aeron for the former, and Arianne for the latter. It wouldn't be insanely difficult to adjust the POVs either, just, you know - "It had been her first time at the Water Gardens for two years," or like "Euron Crow's Eye sat upon the Seastone Chair, and Aeron Damphair sat amongst his men, quiet and seething". Something, George! We don't need one-chapter three-POVs for each arc, two POVs would have been much more memorable to the crowd.

[mormont]

Agree about the POVS - all of the Iron Islands & Dorne POVs could have been cut to one person each instead of three kabillion people - either Asha or Aeron for the former, and Arianne for the latter. It wouldn't be insanely difficult to adjust the POVs either, just, you know - "It had been her first time at the Water Gardens for two years," or like "Euron Crow's Eye sat upon the Seastone Chair, and Aeron Damphair sat amongst his men, quiet and seething". Something, George! We don't need one-chapter three-POVs for each arc, two POVs would have been much more memorable to the crowd.

Possibly true, but I prefer the way it was done for two reasons: first, the introduction of 'mini-POVs' freshened the format up a little, and second, it allowed GRRM to introduce POVs that he could simply drop rather than having to kill off.

[Werthead]

Another of my favorite writers, EE Knight (the Vampire Earth series, check it out) just posted at his site that he sent his manuscript to his piblisher, and the book is slated to be out in July, so perhaps we should anticipate a 4 month turnaroundtime from when GRRM finishes ADWD til it's actual publication.

Or we could go by the AFFC model, which was a 5-month turnaround for UK publication, followed 3-4 weeks later by US publication. This is more likely, since it's the same publishers and they are just as eager, if not moreso, to get ADWD out there.

Oh yeah, and the I blame the fact that Season 3 of BSG hasn't been as up to scratch as the first two firmly on the 16-month gap (bar the end of the Season 2 finale) between Seasons 2 and 3. I think it hurt the series, removing us from the immediacy of the characters and the plot and it's taken most of the season to get us back there. So I applaud the loss of the five-year gap and hope that GRRM doesn't reinstate it.

[Blackwood]

Hm. Are we actually sure that he feels that the mini-POVs are droppable in a way that is different from the regular POVs? I mean, has Martin said something to that effect?

[Piper]

Oh yeah, and the I blame the fact that Season 3 of BSG hasn't been as up to scratch as the first two firmly on the 16-month gap (bar the end of the Season 2 finale) between Seasons 2 and 3. I think it hurt the series, removing us from the immediacy of the characters and the plot and it's taken most of the season to get us back there. So I applaud the loss of the five-year gap and hope that GRRM doesn't reinstate it.

I haven't watched since the season 2 finale, and I was quite turned off by the turn of events; it just threw things off, as you say.

That being said, I actualy thought that the five year gap was an ambitious gamble with a tremedous potential for upside - aging young characters, jumping the plot ahead by leaps and bounds - it would almost be like a reboot of the series, which I thought a talented writer like GRRM could have made into a fascinating endevour. While we'll never know how things would have turned out (other than it delaying publication by years, for us [i guess that's the real five year gap]), I still think it could have turned out great.