Erikson's Reaper's Gale book review

[kmgrey]

I just read House of Chains for the first time (had read the first three books years ago and decided now was a good time to catch up on the series) and I have to admit I don't get the Karsa hate.

I knew he was a controversial character going in and I admit that I hated him at first. But by the end of the first book of HoC he had won me over. Yeah, he was pretty much an evil bastard at the beginning but he was also pretty warped by the "education" that the Seven Gods had given him. But starting with his relationship with Torvald Nom and subsequent realization that the "gods" had pulled one over on him, he came off as relatively honorable, at least as far as the Malazan world goes (let's face it, almost everyone who has lived longer than 100 years in Erikson's world has some pretty rehensible stuff in their past).

And I really don't get the hate for him taking on the Derogoth. Maybe this is expounded upon in BH, but it's not like Rake or Brood failed against them but it was Karsa who saves the day. As near as I can figure it, the only person with any real power who came into contact with the Deragoth was Kalam, who had to run from them so it's not really clear to me that they should have been beyond Karsa's power.

And, again, maybe I'm missing something, but Erikson seems to have set up that the Toblakai are pretty much serious badasses when trained right (the other tribes in Genebackis were clearly rather domesticated). I'm not really clear on all of the lineage, but the Toblakai are an Elder Race so shouldn't their power be compared to the K'Chain Che'Malle or Jaghut? That's clearly a helluva lot more more powerful than any human short of a High Mage.

It didn't really come out of nowhwere in House of Chains either- it's easy to forget but he was pretty badass in Deadhouse Gates as well. He was single handedly the reason that the Red Blades weren't able to get Shaik Elder's body and he also went off and took out a Soletaken by himself which Heboric considered suicidal at the time.

[kedlav]

I just read House of Chains for the first time (had read the first three books years ago and decided now was a good time to catch up on the series) and I have to admit I don't get the Karsa hate.

I knew he was a controversial character going in and I admit that I hated him at first. But by the end of the first book of HoC he had won me over. Yeah, he was pretty much an evil bastard at the beginning but he was also pretty warped by the "education" that the Seven Gods had given him. But starting with his relationship with Torvald Nom and subsequent realization that the "gods" had pulled one over on him, he came off as relatively honorable, at least as far as the Malazan world goes (let's face it, almost everyone who has lived longer than 100 years in Erikson's world has some pretty rehensible stuff in their past).

And I really don't get the hate for him taking on the Derogoth. Maybe this is expounded upon in BH, but it's not like Rake or Brood failed against them but it was Karsa who saves the day. As near as I can figure it, the only person with any real power who came into contact with the Deragoth was Kalam, who had to run from them so it's not really clear to me that they should have been beyond Karsa's power.

And, again, maybe I'm missing something, but Erikson seems to have set up that the Toblakai are pretty much serious badasses when trained right (the other tribes in Genebackis were clearly rather domesticated). I'm not really clear on all of the lineage, but the Toblakai are an Elder Race so shouldn't their power be compared to the K'Chain Che'Malle or Jaghut? That's clearly a helluva lot more more powerful than any human short of a High Mage.

It didn't really come out of nowhwere in House of Chains either- it's easy to forget but he was pretty badass in Deadhouse Gates as well. He was single handedly the reason that the Red Blades weren't able to get Shaik Elder's body and he also went off and took out a Soletaken by himself which Heboric considered suicidal at the time.

As far as the Deragoth go... they did bust up a dozen azalan demons without breaking a sweat. Azalan's aren't exactly pushovers as we've seen in other areas, but its still a bit of a stretch that the worst Karsa got was a bit chewed. Power-wise, the Teblor are fallen Thelomen Toblakai, which means they've got the most of the racial traits, but not the knowledge that the T'lan Imass and Jaghut have. That being said, Erikson has dropped significant hints as to the source of Karsa's power, namely that he's a warren unto himself. Personality-wise, I've always found him interesting. To say he's nigh-indestructible, uber-ridiculous is to forge the guy spent months chained to a wagon and ship doing absolutely nothing but suffering.

[delete this account pls]

I'm not Karsa's biggest fan - didn't like him in House of Chains but he grew on me a bit in Bonehunters, maybe thanks to the odd couple pairing with Samar Dev.

I don't agree at all that there's no consequences for his actions though. Karsa leads his two best friends to their death in his very first venture and gets saddled with their ghosts. He also fails in his duty to guard Felisin the Younger because he's so distracted with getting his prized Jaghut horse, resulting in her rape and mutilation at the hands of Bidthal. Both seem like pretty big consequences to me, and Karsa acknowledges his own fault in both of them.

[Kalbear]

There are no consequences to him, however. He just blunders around and other people get fucked over for it. He also doesn't seem to really change his behavior to avoid this in the future.

Superpowered douchebags that don't really suffer for their douchebaggery really just don't interest me as characters, regardless of whether you explain why he's sooper speshul or not. Okay, he's got his own warren or he is his own warren. Whoopdefuck. Now we've got a douchebag warren with legs walking around and killing stuff with his neat wooden sword (later: his neat stone sword). Whatever. If he dies in RG, I might start reading so I can cheer on his death. But I doubt it; Erikson's got too much of a woody for the dumbass.

[kedlav]

There are no consequences to him, however. He just blunders around and other people get fucked over for it. He also doesn't seem to really change his behavior to avoid this in the future.

Superpowered douchebags that don't really suffer for their douchebaggery really just don't interest me as characters, regardless of whether you explain why he's sooper speshul or not. Okay, he's got his own warren or he is his own warren. Whoopdefuck. Now we've got a douchebag warren with legs walking around and killing stuff with his neat wooden sword (later: his neat stone sword). Whatever. If he dies in RG, I might start reading so I can cheer on his death. But I doubt it; Erikson's got too much of a woody for the dumbass.

As I stated before, sitting chained to a wagonbed for months counts as suffering in my book. If you care to disagree, why don't you give it a try just for a week...

[spiralx]

I'm a big Karsa fan as well, despite hating him at the start of HoC. Looking forward to seeing more of him in RG, only seen his arrival at Lether

[Ran]

kedlav,

I never got the sense that anything but Karsa's pride truly "suffered" during that particular occasion. He bounces back from wounds, pain doesn't really bother him, and so on. He basically doesn't get traumatized, doesn't get phased, doesn't care about anything except having the freedom of the übermensch to determine his own course, because the only moral right for him is defined by him and no one else. When he happens to do a good thing, it just happens to be because it falls into line with his egocentric view of things.

No doubt there's been changes or elaborations on the character since HoC. But HoC was the stake through the heart for me, and as far as I can tell, most of the books after HoC seem to be rated at the HoC and MT level rather than the DG and MoI level, so I don't think I'm missing anything that I'd find grand. The story's not interesting to me any longer, and Karsa is just emblematic of the choices Erikson made that lessened my interest in his series.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Over at Malazan there's a couple threads tracking where RG is surfacing. It seems that bookstores in various places are starting to get it in and shelve it for sale. Numerous people have found it.

Er, yes, but I won a copy from Pat that was shipped the same time as Malt's, I believe. That's why I'm surprised it's not in my grubby hands yet. Someone at An Post is probably enjoying it already....

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I like Karsa's character line a lot. He is becoming increasingly more reasonable and it is affecting his behavior. Some readers complained that Karsa is typicał D&D barbarian warrior who is travelling through the world accumulating experience points. It may be true, but at some point he evidently got all strength and agility points he needed, so he decided to develop wisdom next.

[kedlav]

kedlav,

I never got the sense that anything but Karsa's pride truly "suffered" during that particular occasion. He bounces back from wounds, pain doesn't really bother him, and so on. He basically doesn't get traumatized, doesn't get phased, doesn't care about anything except having the freedom of the �bermensch to determine his own course, because the only moral right for him is defined by him and no one else. When he happens to do a good thing, it just happens to be because it falls into line with his egocentric view of things.

No doubt there's been changes or elaborations on the character since HoC. But HoC was the stake through the heart for me, and as far as I can tell, most of the books after HoC seem to be rated at the HoC and MT level rather than the DG and MoI level, so I don't think I'm missing anything that I'd find grand. The story's not interesting to me any longer, and Karsa is just emblematic of the choices Erikson made that lessened my interest in his series.

I wouldn't say he didn't suffer and/or learn from the experience. He does indeed begin learning a variety of things. First and foremost, he learns patience. Second, he learns the value of humans through Torvald Nom. Last, he learns just how much a fool he was during the whole entry of House of Chains. He realizes he devastated a neighboring tribe for no reason. He realizes he was manipulated by his gods for their own purposes. He realizes a number of things. That he has changed little in a variety of senses, namely that he still is overly aggressive, antagonistic, self-righteous, and sees himself at the center of the universe, I will not disagree with. That he's out of left-field and quite a bit of what he's done is beyond ridiculous, I will not disagree with. That he's a single dimensional character who thinks of naught but himself, doesn't consider others at all, and shows no redeeming qualities I will not agree to. There's no doubt that Karsa is a weak character in many senses, but he and Erikson don't deserve quit all the slag they receive over him IMO. As far as Midnight Tides and the Bonehunters being approximately the quality level of House of Chains, I'd agree. Nevertheless, they are significantly different books. Midnight Tides is a very slow, character-centric book that features a great deal more humor than the typical Malazan novel (focused mostly on Tehol and Bugg, but I can't deny that I laugh at Gerun Eberict's brother who's name I'm slipping on remembering at the moment). The Bonehunters, while Karsa and Icarium, the most undeniably uber-ridiculous characters in the series, play parts, it is much more focused on less powerful groups... the Fourteenth Army (Fiddler and co.), Ganoes Paran, and a few other storylines. There's very little of the 'Karsa see, Karsa kill' aspect of House of Chains in either.

[WLU]

My take on what I've read on the thread about Karsa's abilities:

1) It's alluded to that Toblakai as a race can become warrens unto themselves, and then the female Jaghut he

SPOILER: jag

has sex with

in House of Chains provides a further hint that Karsa is in fact like this.

2) The Teblor tribe he belonged to has it's history alluded to further, and it suggests that they would actually be of greater purity than virtually any other Toblakai on the planet, or at least very pure. Other tribes of the Genabackis (sp) tundra were all seen as smaller an weaker.

3) His tribe was further 'blessed' by the 7 of the dead fire (or whatever the name is), granting at minimum, immunity to disease if not more. He was further shaped in his travels to be the Knight of the House of Chains, which has to grant him something else.

4) He's ... uh ... OK, I forgot number 4.

Final point - when you're writing a series of 10 books, with anywhere from 5-10 000 pages and a cast of hundreds, there's always going to be some character you write that will hit a button for every single reader. Except for me, because I've got a man-crush on Steven Erikson. The only ones I didn't really like were Bidthal and that lot from the Raraku camp 'cos they're evil and shit.

[Ran]

kedlav,

I wouldn't say he didn't suffer and/or learn from the experience.

The list that follows is all about what he _learns_, not what he suffers, which is interesting, since I never said he didn't learn anything. I just said that outside of suffering some for his pride, he doesn't really get phased. I'm sure he learns -- he's a savage, not an idiot, and I've never suggested otherwise. It's merely that all his experiences in HoC merely confirmed his nigh-Objectivist drive to create for himself pure personal freedom.

That he has changed little in a variety of senses, namely that he still is overly aggressive, antagonistic, self-righteous, and sees himself at the center of the universe, I will not disagree with. That he's out of left-field and quite a bit of what he's done is beyond ridiculous, I will not disagree with.

That's pretty much all I'm saying. I haven't read TBH, so I've no idea what happens with Karsa there. In HoC, his character growth could fit into a thimble. He grew less _ignorant_, but his reactions to the knowledge he learned largely fits into what was already forseeable in the first few dozen pages of HoC.

Nevertheless, they are significantly different books.

I'm not sure that it matters that they're different. I can handle different just fine. But MT wasn't interesting, and after HoC proved to be the debacle that it was (in my book), that was enough to put an end to my abiding interest. I may some day pick up the rest of the series at the library or something, but I'm not going to be putting down any more money for it.

[Errant Bard]

Actually TBH, if anything, had even more ridiculous levelling than any book before. Think about it:

- A human goes and kills a god as if it was picnic on the grass.

- A previously nameless malazan grunt kicks the ass of a D'iver horror unearthed by Nameless Ones in exchange for their life. It appeared this diver was sealed because he couldn't be killed, well, apparently that's not quite right, he dies easily.

- Fiddler the level 1 sapper becomes fiddler the level 20 seer, with ability to play magic tunes on his fiddle, and predict the future, the present and the past more accurately than the most adept deck of dragons reader.

- The Eres ex machina can solve anything.

- Kalam exterminates half the claw, while Apsalar assassinates the other half.

- The crust brothers come back and they are all out of gum.

- Bottle taps into ancient power and proves to be more powerful than any mage that ever appeared before in the books. Incidently, the Edur magic isn't as good as it's cracked to be, in comparison.

- Heboric becomes some sort of planetary shield.

- Trull proves to be a match for the battle crazed Icarium (destroyer of worlds, fear him)

- The whole 14th levels into battle grizzled veterans.

- A random girl from the 14th proves to be a frigging High Mage

- Iskaral Pust kicks godlike demon ass, no sweat.

- Iskaral's wife draws on super-powered healing magic, and introduces yet another mystical über force.

- In a surprising plot twist, a retconned army of thogg and fanderay followers joins Tavore, but not before creating some time-space portal to transport the army.

There is not much of Karsa, but I stand by my opinion that he is a perfect symbol of how screwed the Malazan world evolution is.

[Lord Baelish]

Fiddler's always had an affinity with the DoD and has his "bad feelings" that the other Bridgeburners long ago learnt to respect. This is mentioned as far back as GotM, so he hasn't undergone a sudden "levelling up" in BH.

Paran is hardly just a human. He's the Master of the Deck of Dragons, potentially one of the most powerful people in the world. In the time between MoI and BH, he has had a lot of time to come to terms with his power and how to use it, which is shown in his showdown with Poliel. (Besides which, I believe it was the Deragoth that kill Poliel in the end anyway.)

I agree about the Eres completely, however. She is the single worst character in the series so far. She just pops up and makes everything go away. I hate her and hope she dies a horrible death in RG. I also thought the Kalam fight at the end was rather OTT, but at least he does suffer for it greatly and doesn't just walk out the other side with no problems.

Bottle isn't more powerful than any other mage. He isn't particularly powerful at all, in fact. He just has brains. When he helped QB against the Edur, he was just helping to strengthen the illusion. It was the Eres that made the illusion "real" and powerful. And the Edur magic is still pretty formidable. It was only the belief that two powerful chaotic magics would collide that stopped them annihilating the Malazan fleet.

I didn't much like the introduction of the Perish, either. I hope they get some sort of decent explanation in RG.

[Errant Bard]

Lord Baelish: About Fiddler and Paran, that's kinda my point: they did level up to incredible levels. at the start they were just a sapper with hunches and a wannabe hero. Now they are, respectively, the most accurate fortune teller ever who can also kill ancient horrors with his customized grenade launcher, and a super being with gods at his beck and call who can teleport, summon anything, and transform into some kind of over the top superpowered magical beast (not a veering, so something better). Oh, and Paran also has a whole army of grizzled veterans.

[kmgrey]

As far as the Deragoth go... they did bust up a dozen azalan demons without breaking a sweat.

Ah good point. I'd forgot about them. Though to be fair I don't think the Deragoth actually killed any of them but they did get their asses kicked.

[Lord Baelish]

But to my mind, Fiddler at least hasn't levelled up. His "hunches" have always been right, and that's all his card game was - a series of hunches about the future. He does have a great ability, but he always has. It was one of his feelings that saved the Bridgeburners under the walls of Pale way back in GotM.

Paran has gotten stronger, but I hardly see that as a bad thing. Paran's new powers came as a result of his ascension to Master of the Deck. Such a Master has to be more than just a normal human, or he wouldn't last five minutes. A lot of time has passed since the start of GotM, so of course Paran would have grown up since then. I think Paran's developed in a believeable way, having spent months learning his abilities.

Bran has gained new abilities since the start of AGoT. Do you like that development? Or do you see that as "levelling up"?

[Ran]

Fiddler having "hunches" doesn't strike me as at all the same sort of thing as EB's description of his predicting "the future, the present and the past more accurately than the most adept deck of dragons reader." I haven't read TBH, but it sounds to me like Fiddler graduates from having uncannily accurate "hunches" to ... well, going way beyond that. Perhaps that's the wrong reading to take out of EB's description.

In any case, to try and deny the RPG roots of the setting, and the fact that there really does seem to be some of the "levelling up" stuff going on, seems rather pointless to me. People "level up" like mad. Hell, it's the whole point for some of them -- enough levels and you get a shot at Ascending.

[Errant Bard]

It's all a matter of how it's written into the story. Bran hardly one day sat at a table and warged into an army of animals, or summoned an army of three eyed crows before killing R'hllor in his first ACOK chapter, but that's what Fiddler and Paran did.

Power boosts are not character development. Actually if there isn't character development to explain the power boost, it breaks my suspension of disbelief.

[WLU]

That he has changed little in a variety of senses, namely that he still is overly aggressive, antagonistic, self-righteous, and sees himself at the center of the universe, I will not disagree with. That he's out of left-field and quite a bit of what he's done is beyond ridiculous, I will not disagree with.

That's pretty much all I'm saying. I haven't read TBH, so I've no idea what happens with Karsa there. In HoC, his character growth could fit into a thimble. He grew less _ignorant_, but his reactions to the knowledge he learned largely fits into what was already forseeable in the first few dozen pages of HoC.

I disagree with the characterization of KO growth. To my mind, KO has learned a lot, then examined what he has learned and has chosen to retain/return to the same characteristics and worldview (or perhaps problem solving approach) that he had when he was with the Teblor tribe. I would think it's an approximation of "so this is what the rest of the world is like. It is stupid. My way is better. I shall remain Karsa Orlong, mighty Teblor warrior". It's not even a 'to hell with you guys', he simply turns away from it. I doubt there's even a value judgement, merely a relization or choice that it is not for him. A real world comparison would be like a hard core Christian going to university, being exposed to all sorts of non-Christian things, then chosing to keep going to church every Sunday.Of course, since he's a fictional character, it's a cow's opinion. Oh, please someone ask.

Actually TBH, if anything, had even more ridiculous levelling than any book before. Think about it:

1 A human goes and kills a god as if it was picnic on the grass.

2 A previously nameless malazan grunt kicks the ass of a D'iver horror unearthed by Nameless Ones in exchange for their life. It appeared this diver was sealed because he couldn't be killed, well, apparently that's not quite right, he dies easily.

3 Fiddler the level 1 sapper becomes fiddler the level 20 seer, with ability to play magic tunes on his fiddle, and predict the future, the present and the past more accurately than the most adept deck of dragons reader.

4 The Eres ex machina can solve anything.

5 Kalam exterminates half the claw, while Apsalar assassinates the other half.

6 The crust brothers come back and they are all out of gum.

7 Bottle taps into ancient power and proves to be more powerful than any mage that ever appeared before in the books. Incidently, the Edur magic isn't as good as it's cracked to be, in comparison.

8 Heboric becomes some sort of planetary shield.

9 Trull proves to be a match for the battle crazed Icarium (destroyer of worlds, fear him)

10 The whole 14th levels into battle grizzled veterans.

11 A random girl from the 14th proves to be a frigging High Mage

12 Iskaral Pust kicks godlike demon ass, no sweat.

13 Iskaral's wife draws on super-powered healing magic, and introduces yet another mystical über force.

14 In a surprising plot twist, a retconned army of thogg and fanderay followers joins Tavore, but not before creating some time-space portal to transport the army.

There is not much of Karsa, but I stand by my opinion that he is a perfect symbol of how screwed the Malazan world evolution is.

I put in numbers so I can reply without having to add a ton of quote tags.

1 - Paran? Not human any more - Master of the Deck, with acess to power that goes beyond the Malazan world and taster of the blood of the Hounds of Shadow.

2 - Um... I'll somewhat concede, but the D'ivers is unkillable as a whole, that was only a single part. But that's weak.

3 - Magic tune is from Kimloc's circular song back in BH. Fid's ability to tap into an pre-conscious, inuitive understanding of the DoD was set up on the 1st book. They haven't used it until now because in the Malazan world, tapping power leads to unwanted attention.

4 - Eres sucks balls, I agree. Though there is precedent to Eres as the savior of the planet - they predate even the Imass, and have essentially been worshipped for over 300k years. Imass sacred sites are built on Eres sites. As the first bit of intelligent life on the planet, her guardianship kinda makes sense though

5 - Kalam is the single most skilled assassin ever produced by 7 cities and the Malazan army. Though I will grant he rocks pretty hard in BH.

6 - Huh?

7 - Bottle taps the Eres magic, which is 300k+ old - he is the channel, not the source. Given the trouble that the world is in, it makes sense that everyone with a stake in the matter will sit up and pay attention. Plus, the Edur didn't get their asses handed to them, they chickened out. Eres magic didn't win, the Edur mages refused to fight. In their current state, they are bullies - they only want to fight battles they know they can win. And a ceda has held off the Crippled God's magic in the past.

8 - Heboric touched the jade statue which creates otataral (or vice-versa? I don't get the jade statues), which apparently is a kind of defense mechanism against the intrusion of foreign magic.

9 - Yeah, this part of BH was weak in my mind, I don't get Icarium's role in all of this.

10 - Didn't like this part either, though a single battle does go a long way towards shaping up an army (in my armchair general opinion).

11 - A natural high-mage, intuitive access to talent. But again, I concede.

12/13 - Yeah, OK, sort-of. But IP I'll address below

14 - I see your point, but it could be seen as SE expanding the world we know about to include all of the players. Or retconning.

Within the Malazan world, there is a strong influence of evolution - the new replaces the old. This has been a theme since GotM. Things that were badass thousands of years ago have been replaced. If they were frozen in their ancient state, they have stayed the same while the rest of the world has grown more complicated, more evolved, explored new niches and capabilities. Humans have more potential than the Imass did, a more complicated culture, a greater access to magic and a more efficient way of tapping into it. This was addressed in MoI I believe, where the Imass realize and state that they are obsolete because of the presence of humans.

Anyway, I can see your points, it's possibly I'm just less discriminating